Why More than 128K?

[+hloberg]

You know, this brings up a question I had for a while, when does an Atari 8-bit stop being an Atari 8-bit?

As Example, my dad collects antique cars. Few years back we went to a car show and they had 56 Chevys on display. At one extreme was the 56s that were pure stock. All the parts matched the serial numbers, all the stickers were original, even some hadn't been re-painted since the original coat in 56. The other extreme was the modified that the engine, chassis, drive train, interior, body panels were all of new stuff. Heck, the only thing original might be the inner liner of the glove compartment. Along that line, when was the car not a 56 Chevy and now something else? Where you draw the line, if a line is to be drawn.

A good example for retro-computers is the C64. You got people with pure C64 using floppies and all stock parts to the other extreme of the C64 maxi which looks like a C64 but is really just an emulator. Where can it no longer be called a C64?  

[+CharlieChaplin]

14 hours ago, pixelmischief said:

Let me refocus the question in another way.  What is the "killer app" for 256K, 320K, or 1MB?

 

There are various A8 games, demos and tools that support extra RAM and also various games, demos and tools that require extra RAM. Many years ago (approx. 2008), I made a loooonnngg list of programs that do either support or require XRAM. But I got too lazy to update that list again and again - nowadays the game and tool section would be much longer (and of course also the demo section which was already quite long back then). Maybe someone wants to update these old texts ?!?

 

We have lots of 64k and 128k ROM carts out there, even some with 256k, 512k and 1024k - they work with 64k RAM from cartridge, but do require extra RAM when loaded from disk(file), i.e. if you load these programs from harddisk or SIO2xyz device then you need extra RAM to execute them. And there are also programs that only exist as disk or fileversions and still require a certain amount of extra RAM. Killer app is subjective in my eyes, I rarely play Star Raiders and it does not matter to me that it is considered to be a killer app (until now, I have never played MULE), the same can be said to any game, demo or tool.

 

Some examples:

128k: http://a8.fandal.cz/search.php?search=130XE&butt_details_x=x

 

320k: http://a8.fandal.cz/search.php?search=320XE&butt_details_x=x

 

1088k: http://a8.fandal.cz/search.php?search=1024&butt_details_x=x

 

There are many many more A8 programs out there that require extra RAM (and Fandal does not host any A8 tools or applications). I have been a big fan of TIP animations and collected and created more than 800 of them, guess that only 50% of them work with 64k RAM, while all others require 128k-1088k RAM. But if you do not like such animations (and their long loading time), then that simply does not count, even if there are hundreds of them.

 

Regarding Numen, did you know there are at least two versions out there? The older version came on two disksides, it requires 320k RAM (updated version works on Compyshop and Rambo type upgrades) and shows the demo once. When the demo is over, all you see is a black screen. Like in most demos there is no endless loop. Some years later they released a new version that does an endless loop, so you can show the demo endlessly (good for computer shows and events that run several hours or days) - this version requires min. 384k RAM (320k + additional 64k RAM for looping the demo) and since no-one has 384k RAM on the A8, one could say that it requires 512k/576k RAM... is it a killer-app? Maybe it was back then, but nowadays we have better demos ("better" being very subjective here).

 

 

RD_REQ.TXT RD_SUP.TXT

[+DrVenkman]

32 minutes ago, hloberg said:

You know, this brings up a question I had for a while, when does an Atari 8-bit stop being an Atari 8-bit?

Ah, the old Ship of Theseus argument (Google it, kids ...).

 

So long as it uses SALLY, ANTIC, GTIA, POKEY and PIA, it's an Atari 8-bit to me. I'll even go further and say you can replace some of the bits with CPLD/FPGA work-alikes and enhancements so long as the original functionality and its quirks/exploits remain intact. YMMV and it's no use arguing anyone's opinion because it won't change anyone's mind.

[bfollowell]

1 hour ago, hloberg said:

Finished that could be a good argument for the U1MB.

I remember back to MSDOS days. For a long time there wasn't much of a argument for more than 640k. Oh, an occasional program might use more memory but nothing really stood out. That was until QEMM. QEMM was a memory management program that created windows where you could run multiple DOS programs at once. You could compile in one window, link in another, edit in another and test in yet another. For a DOS programmer it was a dream come true. And the more memory you had the more windows you could open.

I remember QEMM well, but I thought it was mainly a extended memory management tool from QuarterDeck. I didn’t realize that it did all that as well.

 

[ClausB]

33 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

...it's no use arguing anyone's opinion because it won't change anyone's mind.

Yes, lately it seems mind-changing is a lost art.

[+gnusto]

19 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

I remember QEMM well, but I thought it was mainly a extended memory management tool from QuarterDeck. I didn’t realize that it did all that as well.

 

It didn't if we are being precise. QEMM was the memory manager that made memory > 640K accessible (through segment mapping, so pretty much how the Atari does it!) and DesqView, a related but separate project, was the one that did the multitasking part. If I recall correctly, QEMM was originally developed for the purpose of helping DesqView (obviously multitasking requires more memory). But there were MANY more people who wanted large memory machines than wanted multitasking, so QEMM became much more popular.

 

[Gunstar]

1 minute ago, hloberg said:

Finished that could be a good argument for the U1MB.

I remember back to MSDOS days. For a long time there wasn't much of a argument for more than 640k. Oh, an occasional program might use more memory but nothing really stood out. That was until QEMM. QEMM was a memory management program that created windows where you could run multiple DOS programs at once. You could compile in one window, link in another, edit in another and test in yet another. For a DOS programmer it was a dream come true. And the more memory you had the more windows you could open.

That reminds me of Snapshot for Atari's. A couple versions of it came on the Atari Interface Magazine monthly disk volume 4 Fall 1992 and apparently a column on it from the August 92 AIM. I found several versions online at one point, but can only find V3 ATR on my PC ATM, attached below. It allows more than one program in memory (extended memory needed) to switch between on the fly. Works best with SpartaDOS and HDD that can hold 10 programs in virtual memory. Documentation for it is on the ATR.

 

 

Snapshot 3.0.atr

[+hloberg]

56 minutes ago, gnusto said:

 

It didn't if we are being precise. QEMM was the memory manager that made memory > 640K accessible (through segment mapping, so pretty much how the Atari does it!) and DesqView, a related but separate project, was the one that did the multitasking part. If I recall correctly, QEMM was originally developed for the purpose of helping DesqView (obviously multitasking requires more memory). But there were MANY more people who wanted large memory machines than wanted multitasking, so QEMM became much more popular.

 

you're right. I forgot DesqView was a separate product. I used to two so much together they just merged in my memory. 

[pixelmischief]

11 minutes ago, hloberg said:

QEMM was the memory manager that made memory > 640K accessible (through segment mapping, so pretty much how the Atari does it!) and DesqView, a related but separate project, was the one that did the multitasking part.

In 1994, I was at a trading software development company.  I used QEMM and a product called DesqViewX to give developers on Sun Workstations access to productivity apps running on Microsoft Windows via their local X Server.  I used an array of IBM PS2 Model 80's with SCSI cards and 1GB hard disks.  At first I was a hero.  Then I was a villain as all the developers ended up using it primarily to play Mine Sweeper.

[pixelmischief]

59 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

That reminds me of Snapshot for Atari's.

SpartaDOS X running Snapshot and a number of productivity apps from hard disk with easy switching would definitely qualify as a "killer setup"; especially if it could support a music maker and paint program at the same time as a word processor, spreadsheet, and coding app.  Even more if all of those applications could be working from the same hard disk, such that a unified project repository was possible.  Absolutely freaking killer.

 

I don't have time at the immediate moment.  But if one of us hasn't published a 16MB image with this setup by then, I'll get to it in the spring.

[+hloberg]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

That reminds me of Snapshot for Atari's. A couple versions of it came on the Atari Interface Magazine monthly disk volume 4 Fall 1992 and apparently a column on it from the August 92 AIM. I found several versions online at one point, but can only find V3 ATR on my PC ATM, attached below. It allows more than one program in memory (extended memory needed) to switch between on the fly. Works best with SpartaDOS and HDD that can hold 10 programs in virtual memory. Documentation for it is on the ATR.

 

 

Snapshot 3.0.atr 130.02 kB · 4 downloads

interesting, never heard of it. The docs says it does use the extra memory of a 130XE or Rambo and a RAM disk. So I guess you could run a U1MB with a large RAM disk and page in and out fairly quickly. I couldn't get to work in Altirra but I only played with it for a few minutes but it has potential. Wish it had the source code though.

[+hloberg]

11 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

In 1994, I was at a trading software development company.  I used QEMM and a product called DesqViewX to give developers on Sun Workstations access to productivity apps running on Microsoft Windows via their local X Server.  I used an array of IBM PS2 Model 80's with SCSI cards and 1GB hard disks.  At first I was a hero.  Then I was a villain as all the developers ended up using it primarily to play Mine Sweeper.

ah, mine sweeper. We were so bad we even brought copies of tetris and lemmings to play at work (during lunch, of course ).

[pixelmischief]

5 hours ago, hloberg said:

If it is a multitasking OS then, yes, very good reason to get 1mb.

No doubt about it.  When FJC's GOS is released, it will fundamentally transform the Atari ecosystem and make the U1MB, Antonia, and Rapidus (of those supported) must-have upgrades.  If the platform has a well-documented API that developers can write applications against, it will raise the potential of the A8 platform to the Macintosh 512K level; an exponential elevation of power.

[drac030]

31 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

SpartaDOS X running Snapshot and a number of productivity apps from hard disk with easy switching would definitely qualify as a "killer setup"

@mono wrote something like this, you can have up to 9 "desktops", i.e. up to 9 virtual Ataris loaded simultaneously. Of course only one is "running". You can switch between them using the keyboard.

 

From what I can see, this program is unpublished, it rests in the repository, the author must be asked why it has not been made public

Edited January 31, 2021 by drac030

[pixelmischief]

11 hours ago, Philsan said:

There are some good games that need >128KB to run in XEX format (but CAR versions need 64KB only).

Atari Blast!

Bomb Jack

Commando

Mean 18

Space Harrier

 

There are some other good games that necessarily need >128KB to run, CAR versions don't exists:

Duszpasterz Jan Rzygon

Letter Scrabble

Pang

Thank you very much for offering an answer that is targeted to the spirit of the question.

[Gunstar]

16 minutes ago, drac030 said:

@mono wrote something like this, you can have up to 9 "desktops", i.e. up to 9 virtual Ataris loaded simultaneously. Of course only one is "running". You can switch between them using the keyboard.

 

From what I can see, this program is unpublished, it rests in the repository, the author must be asked why it was not been made public

Well, it came out as PD software in the early 90's when the 8-bit was all but dead commercially and most people had moved on to newer computers and there was no nostalgia community involved yet. So it doesn't surprise me that it is widely unknown to people even today.

[drac030]

3 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Well, it came out as PD software in the early 90's

I am not speaking of Snapshot. I am speaking of Deskman, which is a new program, written by mono about a year ago especially for SpartaDOS X.

Edited January 31, 2021 by drac030

[Gunstar]

Just now, drac030 said:

I am not speaking of Snapshot. I am speaking of Deskman, which is a new program, written by mono about a year ago especially for SpartaDOS X.

Oops!sorry.

[pixelmischief]

I've raised this in the past and the current discussion brings it back to mind.  Why don't some of the super-powers here create their own "distros"?  It would even be OK if some of those distros required particular upgrade stacks.  Many of us have several A8's and others of us would probably be willing to build a configuration to host a particularly promising distro.

Edited January 31, 2021 by pixelmischief

[+hloberg]

10 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

I've raised this in the past and the current discussion brings it back to mind.  Why don't some of the super-powers here create their own "distros"?  It would even be OK if some of those distros required particular upgrade stacks.  Many of us have several A8's and others of us would probably be willing to build a configuration to host a particularly promising distro.

wouldn't all the other OS variations from the original 800 OS to Altirra OS could be considered distros? Not a big deal copying in a new OS to RAM on the XL & XE line, just slow.

[emkay]

20 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

I've raised this in the past and the current discussion brings it back to mind.  Why don't some of the super-powers here create their own "distros"? 

Now, you made my day

Distros? You mean operating systems?

On a system where coders usually don't even create optimized games on the given hardware?

Super-Powers ?

Hm... well... Playsoft and Sheddy were more than one already

Possibly a third, named rensoup, could be added, if he will do a final game of his current works

 

[+hloberg]

3 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Ah, the old Ship of Theseus argument (Google it, kids ...).

 

So long as it uses SALLY, ANTIC, GTIA, POKEY and PIA, it's an Atari 8-bit to me. I'll even go further and say you can replace some of the bits with CPLD/FPGA work-alikes and enhancements so long as the original functionality and its quirks/exploits remain intact. YMMV and it's no use arguing anyone's opinion because it won't change anyone's mind.

yes, it's the Ship of Theseus argument of which there is no clear answer. Back to the cars, the guys who had the complete stock scoffed at any modifications. The guys with the extreme mods said, 'If you consider it a 56' it's a 56''. As for my 600XL it has mods for 64k, NTSC composite, S-Drive and a new power supply I built. I am (forever) working on a replacement for the XEP80 using, who knows what. So, It's in the eye of the beholder.

[Mazzspeed]

3 hours ago, hloberg said:

You know, this brings up a question I had for a while, when does an Atari 8-bit stop being an Atari 8-bit?

As Example, my dad collects antique cars. Few years back we went to a car show and they had 56 Chevys on display. At one extreme was the 56s that were pure stock. All the parts matched the serial numbers, all the stickers were original, even some hadn't been re-painted since the original coat in 56. The other extreme was the modified that the engine, chassis, drive train, interior, body panels were all of new stuff. Heck, the only thing original might be the inner liner of the glove compartment. Along that line, when was the car not a 56 Chevy and now something else? Where you draw the line, if a line is to be drawn.

A good example for retro-computers is the C64. You got people with pure C64 using floppies and all stock parts to the other extreme of the C64 maxi which looks like a C64 but is really just an emulator. Where can it no longer be called a C64?  

There's actually not that many people actually using floppies anymore, and the reason is because they weren't the best solution even in the day (although they were vastly better than cassette) - That's like getting your 56 Chevy and fitting seatbelts and power assisted brakes, it's still a 56 Chevy, it's just more practical for today's roads.

 

The C64 Maxi isn't really for the enthusiast, I never bought one as I can make the same thing using a RPi. The Maxi is more for the person that wants to plug their device into a modern flat panel display and quickly and easily reminisce back to their childhood, or satisfy some 8bit curiosity cheaply.

 

The Ultimate 64 is the device for the enthusiast, with the chipset recreated in hardware using FPGA with numerous advantages. In this situation I see the re implementation as a great thing as our old 30yo devices are starting to age somewhat now and it's community driven solutions like the Ultimate 64 that are going to keep 8bit computing alive for future generations beyond simple emulation.

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, hloberg said:

interesting, never heard of it. The docs says it does use the extra memory of a 130XE or Rambo and a RAM disk. So I guess you could run a U1MB with a large RAM disk and page in and out fairly quickly. I couldn't get to work in Altirra but I only played with it for a few minutes but it has potential. Wish it had the source code though.

I've got other versions that work with different DOS's and from extended memory and/or virtual HDD memory. I may have some other files and docs too, I have to locate them in the vast junkyard of my All-in-one Atari 8-bit file on my PC, with tons of sub-folders. I have a new folder where I'm moving stuff and organizing better, but I've only done a small percentage. I also thought I had either AIM magazine or a late Antic or AtariUser free newsprint mag from the early 90's that had a review or article of some type about it. I tried out Snapshot on my 130XE years ago and had two programs "running" but not any other way and not since either. I searched for and found few files for Snapshot on some download Atari site on the net, or across several, I don't recall. I've had them on my PC for several years with the intention of incorporating Snapshot into my HDD SpartaDOS system APT set-up for productivity with both programming and other productivity programs, but haven't gotten around to setting it up yet. I currently have SDX set-up to use extended memory for itself, for BASIC XE (4 banks) and for Ramdisk area and still plenty of banks left over for actually code too. But I want to include Snapshot into it so I can have up to 10 different programs at my fingertips too.

[+hloberg]

1 minute ago, Mazzspeed said:

That's like getting your 56 Chevy and fitting seatbelts and power assisted brakes, it's still a 56 Chevy, it's just more practical for today's roads.

 

Mine also has electronic ignition, electric fuel pump, power steering and a center window stop light.