Why More than 128K?

[Mazzspeed]

4 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

 

Second video shows the "console" end of the session, where you can see the directory of the file read from Indus/GT drive, and the file (and its size) there. It is then read with a COPY command on SDX, which includes DOS and low-level overhead during I/O operation. The whole operation can be timed, by simply looking at the screen, and the command's start and end.

 

I have noticed that I/O-time overhead, when reading DOS-allocated content (and drive sectors, etc.), is HIGH on Atari... per my estimations, about 20% or maybe more. This is NOT the case, however, when transferring over SIO in "packet" mode with PC-Link drivers (also on SDX).

 

(Let me see if I can find it on the A8's HD and post it here...)

 

I know, the problem is versions of SpartaDOS X after 4.4 should state 'k' after the file size information if the measurement is in KiB, your listing has no 'k' after the file size and the file downloaded and unzipped is 33KiB unzipped:

 

 

I dunno, just confused. Perhaps the manual is outdated or you're using a larger variant of the file somehow?

 

 

 

[Gunstar]

2 hours ago, Faicuai said:

This is SO cool! 

 

NEVER heard of this before! Let's give a spin, and see how it behaves with recent SDX incarnations...

If it doesn't work with recent SDX incarnations, I'll just set-up a boot partion on my Incognito BIOS and disable SpartaDOS X to boot SpartaDOS 3.x and Snapshot. Snapshot, I figure, just might be worth giving up the wonders of SDX 4.9. But hopefully it works or can be made to work with modern SDX. I would think it would just be a matter of properly setting up SDX's memory usage to fit with Snapshot's and the set up the virtual system partition on your "HDD."

Edited February 1, 2021 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

I know, the problem is versions of SpartaDOS X after 4.4 should state 'k' after the file size information if the measurement is in KiB, your listing has no 'k' after the file size and the file downloaded and unzipped is 33KiB unzipped:

 

 

I dunno, just confused. Perhaps the manual is outdated or you're using a larger variant of the file somehow?

 

 

 

None of this would matter. I already attached (for your convenience)  the working file shown on the videos, before this post (FYI).

[Mazzspeed]

Yes I know, I was most likely posting before I saw the reply. It is odd how the manual states that the file size should be reported in 'k' and it's not, they must have regressed that feature?

 

In relation to transferring files to the C64 via PC, most of the time you do so via FTP using the 1541 UII+, as the 1541 UII+ hosts it's own FTP server. Makes transferring software from PC to 8bit machine very fast and simple.

[Faicuai]

Just now, Mazzspeed said:

Yes I know, I was most likely posting before I saw the reply. It is odd how the manual states that the file size should be reported in 'k' and it's not, they must have regressed that feature?

 

In relation to transferring files to the C64 via PC, most of the time you do so via FTP using the 1541 UII+, as the 1541 UII+ hosts it's own FTP server. Makes transferring software from PC to 8bit machine very fast and simple.

On the A8 domain, RespeQt PC-host will allow you to connect directly from SIO to USB, and run at Pokey divisors 1/0 red-hot, as well as PC-Link packet-mode. You can mount local PC directories, .ATR images, .XEX files, .CAS images, etc. Atari will run native SIO directly to the PC! Even booting from the PC like a local (and ultra-fast) drive is a walk in the park, in that setup! 

 

SDX will support it very well, including PC-Link drivers. When copying LARGE files (say 512 KBytes long, like Incognito's/U1MB ROM), SDX will pre-load ALL of the file in extended RAM (which is directly accessible by CPU), if you are in 1024 KBytes ram-space, and then spit it out via PC-Link only at the very end... You can see this in action, by paying attention to Incognito's internal HD led, which will completely stop after ROM file is preloaded on system RAM!)

 

There is another efficient use of extended RAM by SDX, involving large I/O operations.

[Mazzspeed]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

On the A8 domain, RespeQt PC-host will allow you to connect directly from SIO to USB, and run at Pokey divisors 1/0 red-hot, as well as PC-Link packet-mode. You can mount local PC directories, .ATR images, .XEX files, .CAS images, etc. Atari will run native SIO directly to the PC! Even booting from the PC like a local (and ultra-fast) drive is a walk in the park, in that setup! 

 

SDX will support it very well, including PC-Link drivers. When copying LARGE files (say 512 KBytes long, like Incognito's/U1MB ROM), SDX will pre-load ALL of the file in extended RAM (which is directly accessible by CPU), if you are in 1024 KBytes ram-space, and then spit it out via PC-Link only at the very end... You can see this in action, by paying attention to Incognito's internal HD led, which will completely stop after ROM file is preloaded on system RAM!)

 

There is another efficient use of extended RAM by SDX, involving large I/O operations.

This was a solution on the C64 a long time ago. However it never really took off due to the way loaders were coded on the C64 resulting in incompatibilities. Atari owners don't seem too fussed about incompatibilities regarding their choice of DOS? I was actually surprised to find that even when using the X command under SpartaDOS-X, most of my games wouldn't load. It's far easier going into the SIDE2 loader to load games, when I do that I have very few issues. Which is all fine, I'm not about making discussion an 'us vs them' argument, such discussions are childish when we're all retro enthusiasts now. I don't limit myself to one platform, I enjoy the strengths and weaknesses of everything. If there's something the C64 does better, I want to enjoy it. If there's something the A8 does better, I also want to enjoy it - My dream machine is an IMSAI 8080, I even have a hankering for the DEC PDP series.

 

As a result, we run either run mass storage off CF card like a HDD, which is very fast, with many software titles patched to run correctly where possible and organize software via sub directories and partitions using JiffyDOS and CMD-HD extended commands (which I believe is actually vastly better then Apple's ProDOS with far faster speeds). Or we run virtual cycle accurate 1541's mounting off mass storage connected to the 1541 UII+ with RAMboard and JiffyDOS enhancements, including JiffyDOS speed enhancements, and transfer files onto mass storage connected to the 1541 UII+ via FTP, which is as fast as one's network considering overheads can handle. I have a 500GB HDD partitioned into smaller drives for virtual 1541 storage as I filled up my USB stick and had the HDD lying around so I thought 'why not'. The good thing about transferring via FTP is it's really easy to rename items, delete files and folders or add files and folders - Which isn't to state such file management can't be done under JiffyDOS with the CMD-HD extensions simply and easily or even via the menu like layout regarding the DOS built into the 1541 UII+ itself.

 

If files are stored on mass storage connected to the 1541 UII+ (like my 500GB HDD), you can load software via DMA provided such software is .PRG or .TAP and transfer is so fast I doubt the RTC fitted to the C64 would be accurate enough to even measure the speed, as files are literally dumped straight off storage directly into memory. As a result transfer speeds aren't limited by the CPU and the process is so fast that any halt applied to the CPU as a result of DMA is in no way noticeable.

 

As stated, there's also Ram drives that can be mounted with a drive number using ramDOS II.

 

So, as you can see, both platforms have their share of exciting enhancements that no one would have even dreamed of in the day. Which is why I state that we apply silly enhancements to our 8bit machines simply 'because we can and we enjoy it' - Absolutely no different to customizing and modifying an 80s car today. Give me a Cosworth Sierra RS500 or a Sapphire Cosworth with modern fuel injection and turbocharger technology any day.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[Mazzspeed]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

Multipost, sorry. Deleted.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[+Stephen]

10 hours ago, Faicuai said:

On Atari's SIO, and enabling PC-Link drivers on SDX, you will reach sustained 110Kbps effective (actually close to 12 KBytes / sec of throughput). 

 

That is the SIO hub (4+1) that cleans-up your SIO topology, and also enables Pokey Divisors 1/0 to run for all devices connected, all day long, including your host computer (zero modifications required). There you can see how or why SIO is related to USB's design / concept. (Joe Decuir)  

 

Here's a video showing a single pass copy of a 180kB disk using APE USB version, and divisor 0.

 

Here's writing to a US Doubled 1050

 

And now for something completely unrelated.  This is how fasts are drives could be, if they were not saddled with the slow SIO port.  This is a MegaSpeedy doing a single pass copy of a disk.  I got scared the first time I tried this - I thought it was formatting the disk.  Since it holds the entire copy in internal memory, you can read once and write as many times as you want.  Excellt way of mass duplicating disks.

 

[Mclaneinc]

My take is that we have seen some amazing productions that work on 48 - 64K so is there a killer app that needs the memory, maybe not although I do love Atariblast and would consider that memory well used. I got my U1MB on the hope it would get used and there's been some streaming uses that are very pretty but I can only hope devs will cater for the extra ram and an optional thing. Will it happen, probably not as devs want to make sure it can work on a stock machine first and foremost.

 

I don't regret getting a U1MB, its a great add on for many reasons but the memory side rarely gets used..Bit of a shame but there's so much good stuff to enjoy I hardly notice..

[+Nezgar]

9 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

using the X command under SpartaDOS-X, most of my games wouldn't load.

SpartaDOS X has probably the lowest MEMLO of any Atari DOS (well maybe other than the new LiteDOS) when used with "USE BANKED" in config.sys to move disk buffers to an extended bank, and keep the RAM under the OS ROM free as well. If you had issues, I wonder if you were running SDX on a 64K only machine? or 128K machine without your own CONFIG.SYS, as SDX will use the OSRAM by default on a stock 128K 130XE.

 

This should allow a large number of games to run, but the truth is most are designed to take over all available RAM, including low memory used by DOS so the most reliable way to boot games is directly from a minimal loader....

[Mazzspeed]

An example showing the benefits regarding a 16M REU with DMA controller on the Commodore 64.

 

Here's a video highlighting the differences in loading times comparing a virtual cycle accurate 1541 with 40k Ramboard expansion and JiffyDOS speed enhancements, vs DMA load directly into the memory of the C64 using the 1541 UII+. The difference in loading times is ~15 seconds vs about 2 seconds.

 

EDIT: Excuse my poor smartphone shaky and at times blurry filming. I'm using my left hand and recovering from surgery after I severed a tendon in my thumb...

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[MrFSL]

On 1/31/2021 at 12:40 PM, DrVenkman said:

Ah, the old Ship of Theseus argument (Google it, kids ...).

No need.

 

I found it fascinating how Alan Watts in "The Book" discusses how "Eastern" peoples are raised under different social constructs and understandings. In his example I think it was a temple which had been burned, destroyed, and re-located. It was difficult to get the locals to understand it was NOT the same temple. Of course it was.

 

Anyways - I thought the Ship of Theseus was about replacing all the parts more than altering or adding on to the ship. My dinner fork --- I can replace all the tines... and later replace the handle... but adding a flame thrower might make it less a fork.

[MrFSL]

On 1/31/2021 at 3:36 AM, flashjazzcat said:

There is no reason on earth that a word processor cannot be considered a 'killer app', regardless of whether you think TLW represents such a thing.

Wholeheartedly agree. I tend to be less interested in the Atari as a gaming platform though.

 

When I first got back into Atari I really wanted to check out TLW. My opinion is that TLW is to Atari, as a jackhammer attachment is to a dremel tool. Face it.... you want to see it work! You want to play with it! Its impressive. But I can live without it. Its a killer accomplishment more than a killer app. I will probably not use it to jackhammer through my word processing chores but find it neat to demonstrate what the hobbyists are doing in this space.

 

--- And that gives me my answer. I think the killer "application" is having the memory resources to participate with others in this forum. It doesn't matter if its a demo, a game, a cart image banking in RAM vs ROM, productivity software, or a pre-emptive multi-tasking porn organizer / randomizer (tm). If someone here can dream it up I will probably want to play with it and marvel at the creativity. This is my hobby. It enables my hobby. I have had a "killer" time with it.

 

 

 

[+DrVenkman]

2 hours ago, MrFSL said:

Anyways - I thought the Ship of Theseus was about replacing all the parts more than altering or adding on to the ship.

More fundamentally, it’s about identity. What is it to say something “is.” Pretty much what every argument about stuff like this ultimately devolves to.

[MrFSL]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

More fundamentally, it’s about identity. What is it to say something “is.”

Yeah, I get it. My point, was that its as much about the observer as the thing. aka The "temple of atari" was built in the year whatever, burned in the year whatever, and so the building had to be rebuilt in another area on another date. Some would say its a new temple. Others would say, there has only ever been one "temple of atari" and there it is! Watts, to my recollection, made the strong argument that, where a person falls between these two camps had a lot to do with their culture, upbringing, and social norms. He used the example in a grander context of getting people to think outside their closed view of what "is." On a forum with international reach I thought it could be relevant? We can speak the same language and understand things completely differently.

 

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Pretty much what every argument about stuff like this ultimately devolves to.

Arguments devolve usually, discussions evolve sometimes. It doesn't necessarily have to be the former.

 

 

I have less time and experience here at atariage but some searching shows me that some people feel strongly on the topic; tempered by the occasional observer who pipes up to say something akin to "it doesn't matter, think whatever you want."

 

My turn ---- Please think whatever you all want. It doesn't matter. (But obviously the way I think is right and the rest of you are wrong!!!) LOL.

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

7 hours ago, MrFSL said:

I will probably not use it to jackhammer through my word processing chores but find it neat to demonstrate what the hobbyists are doing in this space.

I know one forum member who uses TLW to prepare printed material for his teaching job, and another who uses it to edit documentation and source code for a publicly released project. It's nice to hear you consider the software impressive, but TLW is not really intended as a 'jackhammer'. I would say if it were able to edit 1MB text files contiguously, perform mail merge on vast data sets, possessed a WYSIWYG display and comprised 100K of code, it might be a jackhammer in terms of word processing. As it stands, it's perhaps overkill for some light text editing jobs (ED, EDX, XEDIT, etc, may be more appropriate). But for 'word processing', something with multiple buffers, fast insertion, optional 80 column display and a powerful disk menu is pretty much the bare minimum, IMO (I say this after using AtariWriter and TextPro for actual writing in the 90s).

Edited February 2, 2021 by flashjazzcat

[Mazzspeed]

3 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

I know one forum member who uses TLW to prepare printed material for his teaching job, and another who uses it to edit documentation and source code for a publicly released project. It's nice to hear you consider the software impressive, but TLW is not really intended as a 'jackhammer'. I would say if it were able to edit 1MB text files contiguously, perform mail merge on vast data sets, possessed a WYSIWYG display and comprised 100K of code, it might be a jackhammer in terms of word processing. As it stands, it's perhaps overkill for some light text editing jobs (ED, EDX, XEDIT, etc, may be more appropriate). But for 'word processing', something with multiple buffers, fast insertion, optional 80 column display and a powerful disk menu is pretty much the bare minimum, IMO (I say this after using AtariWriter and TextPro for actual writing in the 90s).

Put it this way: Wordprocessing on the A8 is probably a more reliable way to do things. At least the OS won't just up and reboot to perform an update in the middle of working on an important document!

[flashjazzcat]

Just now, Mazzspeed said:

Put it this way: Wordprocessing on the A8 is probably a more reliable way to do things. At least the OS won't just up and reboot to perform an update in the middle of working on an important document!

Yes indeed. Also a distraction-free experience. From what I can gather, the optimial retro word processing experience appears to be ProText on the Atari ST. That word processor long fascinated me and one day - when I get time - I will make a work/lookalike for the A8 (80 columns are a must here).

 

[Gunstar]

I used TLW to write many game reviews over 2 or more editions of EXCEL magazine. Though these days I use spreadsheets and filers and financial recording keeping programs for my business on my Atari more than word processors. They work great for a small business now, as they did 30+ years ago. And free from hacking and viruses. But I mostly use them instead of modern PC apps because, a @MrFSL said, it enables me to use my Atari's more, which I enjoy, even work is more enjoyable when using my Atari's (or other vintage machines, whatever is your flavor(s)).

Edited February 2, 2021 by Gunstar

[MrFSL]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:52 AM, flashjazzcat said:

TLW is not really intended as a 'jackhammer'. I would say if it were able to edit 1MB text files contiguously, perform mail merge on vast data sets, possessed a WYSIWYG display and comprised 100K of code, it might be a jackhammer in terms of word processing.

My feeble attempts at humor via simile have failed completely. --- A jackhammer attachment for a dremel tool would be a novelty. Sure it would be amazing if it worked at all but I wouldn't think it would have the power to replace an actual jackhammer because there is a maximum that the dremel tool could possibly output.

 

Naturally the same could be said about any particular application for Atari and so then of course we are left with "Why bother then?" and "Why dont you go play with your PC then?"  I was trying to continue on with a line of thought which expressed why a person "might bother"; sighting Atari as hobby enjoyment. But I am not putting down TLW and there is no reason to defend it.

 

I agreed with FJC that a Word Processor could be a "killer app" especially to those that do word processing on the Atari (somewhat niche), and already do not have a favorite application for this purpose (the niche grows in niche-iness), and/or have a requirement for the features unique to TLW (even smaller niche.) For this (now twice divided) niche group --- it surely is "killer." If, however, we will define "killer app" to include having wide-spread (and perhaps universal) appeal and/or adoption (which seems a justifiable assumption when using this particular colloquialism) then perhaps there is no "goal-post shifting" going on here. Fair?

 

So as I said, I am not putting down TLW and so there is no need to paste its feature list here. I just wouldn't find myself often recommending that one run out and do a hardware upgrade so they could use it. This is due to the general interests of the amount of Atari users I have come in contact with. 

 

As suppliment, for the writing chores that I wish to do on Atari I have applications I like more so far. The tasks my applications cannot perform I do not want to do on Atari because inevitably the Atari becomes the wrong tool for me. Also as I approach this level of complexity the length of a document usually grows and there is only so much typing I am going to do on any Atari keyboard at one time. 

 

On 2/2/2021 at 6:01 AM, Mazzspeed said:

Put it this way: Wordprocessing on the A8 is probably a more reliable way to do things. At least the OS won't just up and reboot to perform an update in the middle of working on an important document!

You are working on the wrong OS, with the wrong configurations, or with the wrong tools. When drafting documents for work, my computer can loose power and I loose none of my data... even if I don't click "save." Yet, regardless of modern features and cloud improvements - as hardware reaches the age of my Atari, chances of it turning off due to simple hardware failure grows and might edge out the Atari for that "most reliable" word processing award. I have computers that I use that are nearing 8 years uptime. That is sufficient time to get through most word processing chores.

 

On 2/2/2021 at 6:04 AM, flashjazzcat said:

Yes indeed. Also a distraction-free experience.

All Engineers have ADHD I swear!   Anyways, we have entered the realm of justifying the Atari as the "superior at least in some ways" platform. If you want your modern word processor to work as a single app in some sort of kiosk style mode that would be easy to accomplish on modern hardware.

 

On 2/2/2021 at 6:04 AM, flashjazzcat said:

That word processor long fascinated me and one day - when I get time - I will make a work/lookalike for the A8 (80 columns are a must here).

...and I can't wait to play around with it when you do. The fact that you can build things like this is awesome. Thank you for giving me these things to play with.

 

On 2/2/2021 at 10:50 AM, Gunstar said:

But I mostly use them instead of modern PC apps because, a @MrFSL said, it enables me to use my Atari's more, which I enjoy, even work is more enjoyable when using my Atari's (or other vintage machines, whatever is your flavor(s)).

Yeah now we're talking! More than any particular application I upgraded my hardware to have an ecosystem to advance the opportunity to play or work with my Atari.

 

 

[Mazzspeed]

2 hours ago, MrFSL said:

You are working on the wrong OS, with the wrong configurations, or with the wrong tools. When drafting documents for work, my computer can loose power and I loose none of my data... even if I don't click "save." Yet, regardless of modern features and cloud improvements - as hardware reaches the age of my Atari, chances of it turning off due to simple hardware failure grows and might edge out the Atari for that "most reliable" word processing award. I have computers that I use that are nearing 8 years uptime. That is sufficient time to get through most word processing chores.

Not me, I don't use Windows or MacOS. My main workstation is a 2010 Dell T5500 with dual X5675's, 48GB of ram, a 250GB bootable m.2 > pcie SSD, dual 6TB spinners and an Nvidia 980Ti with a 27" 4k monitor running fractional scaling via KDE Neon. Everything is imaged nightly and the PC runs through an ageing, but still functional, APC Pro 1500 UPS. I love my Dell, it even games well - Been enjoying Black Mesa at 4k, awesome game.

 

However, as an IT tech, I deal with the magnitudes of people with less than optimal modern systems that literally would be better off with an A8.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[MrFSL]

3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

My main workstation is a 2010 Dell T5500 with dual X5675's, 48GB of ram, a 250GB bootable m.2 > pcie SSD, dual 6TB spinners and an Nvidia 980Ti with a 27" 4k monitor running fractional scaling via KDE Neon.

Mother of Jeebuz! Meanwhile I am looking for alternatives to the Raspberry Pi for my everyday computer because i don't like how much power it pulls. --- And you lost me at KDE Neon. We now must agree to disagree on everything... yes everything this world has to offer. I can't reason with a KDE lover.  

 

3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

However, as an IT tech

Cool!

3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

I deal with the magnitudes of people

I'm so very sorry to hear it.

 

Cheers  

 

 

[Mazzspeed]

54 minutes ago, MrFSL said:

Mother of Jeebuz! Meanwhile I am looking for alternatives to the Raspberry Pi for my everyday computer because i don't like how much power it pulls. --- And you lost me at KDE Neon. We now must agree to disagree on everything... yes everything this world has to offer. I can't reason with a KDE lover.  

 

Cool!

I'm so very sorry to hear it.

 

Cheers  

 

 

Each to their own.

 

I don't have a problem with KDE, in fact my workflow is outstanding making use of everything it has to offer - I can even shade Windows, similar to system 7 and the iconify function under AmigaOS. Others like Windows and MacOS, and that makes me happy as all their issues make me an honest living. Right now I'm using 4.8GB of memory and I haven't restarted this machine in a month.

 

I actually use my Commodore 64 and Amiga more than I use the Windows machine and the Mac I have here. I bought the Mac to work on Mac's, but Linux actually reads HFS partitions better than MacOS does.?

 

Linux can even mount Amiga FFS partitions.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[+gnusto]

45 minutes ago, MrFSL said:

Meanwhile I am looking for alternatives to the Raspberry Pi for my everyday computer because i don't like how much power it pulls.

 

This statement confuses me. The heaviest Pi draw is something like 7W, a Zero is under 1W. Assuming you are using modern LED lighting, that's a less than 1 light bulb. There are so many suspect power draws in a living environment than this. I can almost guarantee if you have one a slight adjustment to your refrigerator temperature would be much more impactful (unless you don't have one, in which case you're hardcore, i like my drinks cold). You could fully offset Pi power use with a low grade consumer solar panel and some form of intermediary battery storage, considering it's 5v.

[Mazzspeed]

11 minutes ago, gnusto said:

 

This statement confuses me. The heaviest Pi draw is something like 7W, a Zero is under 1W. Assuming you are using modern LED lighting, that's a less than 1 light bulb. There are so many suspect power draws in a living environment than this. I can almost guarantee if you have one a slight adjustment to your refrigerator temperature would be much more impactful (unless you don't have one, in which case you're hardcore, i like my drinks cold). You could fully offset Pi power use with a low grade consumer solar panel and some form of intermediary battery storage, considering it's 5v.

I may be reading into it too much, but I think the underlying assumption is that KDE is power hungry.

 

The problem is, as a DE KDE is actually quite lean. ?

 

But, that's a discussion for another forum.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Mazzspeed