Ultimate Controller (Again)

[Zonie]

I've brought this up before, but now there seems to be so much new good stuff unlocking the potential of the 7800, that If the community came up with a new enhanced controller standard that allows for existing games to be played, and new games and hacks to take advantage of it, I think we really should consider it. I mean, I'm totally blown away by having actual arcade sounds on Galaxian. 

 

Also, now we have controller manufacturers such as Edladdin, and other guys willing to make custom controllers for people, and people willing to pay for them, that the time is right to do this. There are tons of people buying the Concerto, Dragonfly, and Edladdin's wonderful controllers, so there's gotta be a "want" here.

 

Now I have my own ideas of what a controller could have, and as an old guy, a simple joystick and one or two buttons is about all I can normally handle, but this can give us more and better control of existing games, a lot like the trackball hacks for games like Missile Command and Centipede have.  Imagine, for example, three bases on Missile Command, or an analog gas pedal for driving games like Pole Position, for example. How about Tron games with a pistol grip joystick and thumb fire and a spinner? Add two action buttons or a switch to the top of that pistol grip for shields in Space Rocks, or Smart Bombs in Stargate. Heck how about a proper Stargate controller (I made one a a kid in the 80's).

 

The inputs for all this stuff are already standard, they are just not all being used. Playing Raiders or Stargate with two joysticks sucked. This can fix that. Playing pinball games with end buttons for flippers and a couple of dampened mercury switches for tilting could be a lot of fun.  Making an easy to use controller with extra buttons and such would make more people buy homebrews that took advantage of them, and more homebrewers would use them, and more games would be sold, so Homebrewers may actually make money...

 

I'm also proposing not using matrices like the keyboards or Coleco SA controllers. Just plain old regular standard inputs where the console expects them to be. I'm just advocating putting two cables on the controller(s) so more features can be used, but keeping the basic joystick and both buttons the same for the left port so normal existing 7800 and 2600 games work with the standard features out of the box. All the extra stuff comes from the right port.

 

ZoNiE's 7800 Super Controller.pdf

[doubledown]

As a controller builder...I'm all for it, but in real life, its not likely going to happen.  To convince a programmer to create a game that would require a "special" controller, there would need to be a large number of them in the hands of the players.  To get a large number of "special" controllers into the hands of the players, they would need to be cheap, and there would need to be game(s) that make use of it.  So if you can design/develop this controller that you're talking about, to have a selling price of say $25 - $50 (about what the market will bear for something like this), and you can get programmers to create great games that can use it...you've probably got something.  But until then, unless you can build the controller and program the game...it's probably never going to happen.  

[Shawn]

This will never work out.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, doubledown said:

As a controller builder...I'm all for it, but in real life, its not likely going to happen.  To convince a programmer to create a game that would require a "special" controller, there would need to be a large number of them in the hands of the players.  To get a large number of "special" controllers into the hands of the players, they would need to be cheap, and there would need to be game(s) that make use of it.  So if you can design/develop this controller that you're talking about, to have a selling price of say $25 - $50 (about what the market will bear for something like this), and you can get programmers to create great games that can use it...you've probably got something.  But until then, unless you can build the controller and program the game...it's probably never going to happen.  

 

As Coleco found out with the Super Action Controllers, and others did with their respective designs.

 

Anything targetting hardware above or different to a baseline configuration is going to remain niche at best.

[edladdin]

I love these ideas!

[+GoldenWheels]

I tried to come up with a controller design that could handle (and simplify) several 7800 titles at once. The best I ever did was designing controllers for one or two existing games that then also ended up (be default) working on a new homebrew game. Asteroids, to Space Rocks, for instance.

 

 

The few times I tried an all in one design ULTIMATE 7800 design...which in my mind should have two sticks (Robotron and Salvo TME etc, with one of the sticks being switchable to four way, for Pac games, natch), small buttons that duplicate the directionals (Asteroids, and, oddly, Joust, which they work great for), a built in paddle (Crazy Brix), a trackball, turbo functionality (because ALL AFTERMARKET CONTROLLERS SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE TURBOS)...the design I had was so fugly, and so complex (for me), that I just gave up and made a sandwich.

 

 

 

[Swami]

Compact spinners are so expensive it’s ridiculous. There are a few indented ones for under $30 that might better be called “twisters” because they will go round and round but not spin to any extent. However, compact free spinning spinners start around $60 from what I’ve seen. 

 

Edit: I should add, though, that a paddle pot can serve the same basic functions as a spinner, except you are turning it in a limited range  rather than spinning it. 

[+SmittyB]

I've always thought that a pair of paddles could fairly easily be repurposed into a 2 button analogue joystick by having each act as the X and Y axis and just using the existing 2 buttons. From there either software could run calibration on startup, and / or a couple of additional pots could be added to handle centering.

 

Of course nobody's going to build one if software doesn't exist for it, and nobody's going to write software for it if it hasn't been built.

[nyandeyanen]

1 hour ago, SmittyB said:

I've always thought that a pair of paddles could fairly easily be repurposed into a 2 button analogue joystick by having each act as the X and Y axis and just using the existing 2 buttons. From there either software could run calibration on startup, and / or a couple of additional pots could be added to handle centering.

 

Of course nobody's going to build one if software doesn't exist for it, and nobody's going to write software for it if it hasn't been built.

That's how the Apple II joystick was implemented, originally it was two paddles. And also why it had 2 buttons. Since the paddle interface is already there it shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility.

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, SmittyB said:

I've always thought that a pair of paddles could fairly easily be repurposed into a 2 button analogue joystick by having each act as the X and Y axis and just using the existing 2 buttons. From there either software could run calibration on startup, and / or a couple of additional pots could be added to handle centering.

 

Of course nobody's going to build one if software doesn't exist for it, and nobody's going to write software for it if it hasn't been built.

I'll need to track down the manufacturer (think it may have been Suncom), but there was at least one made for the A8 and C64 that worked in exactly that way.

[Swami]

3 hours ago, SmittyB said:

I've always thought that a pair of paddles could fairly easily be repurposed into a 2 button analogue joystick by having each act as the X and Y axis and just using the existing 2 buttons. From there either software could run calibration on startup, and / or a couple of additional pots could be added to handle centering.

 

Of course nobody's going to build one if software doesn't exist for it, and nobody's going to write software for it if it hasn't been built.

You could probably make a $10 adapter that converted the 5200 controller or it’s 3rd Party Wico stick to do this, but most folks dislike the 5200 controllers and the 5200 Wico is kinda rare and pretty pricy.  Perhaps an adapter for the old DOS gameport controllers. Any paddle game could also be played with it, so, that is some incentive. Several game do already exist that can be played with such a device or adapter. 

[Zonie]

On 2/1/2021 at 7:41 PM, doubledown said:

As a controller builder...I'm all for it, but in real life, its not likely going to happen.  To convince a programmer to create a game that would require a "special" controller, there would need to be a large number of them in the hands of the players.  To get a large number of "special" controllers into the hands of the players, they would need to be cheap, and there would need to be game(s) that make use of it.  So if you can design/develop this controller that you're talking about, to have a selling price of say $25 - $50 (about what the market will bear for something like this), and you can get programmers to create great games that can use it...you've probably got something.  But until then, unless you can build the controller and program the game...it's probably never going to happen.  

I'm not advocating having the new games require it, but if the controller is available, for someone to build or buy, and there is room in the romspace to program in some options, so be it.

 

Edladdin controllers are $120-$220 and they are selling.

People are adding $20 extra to a $40 homebrew to get the box.

People are ordering loaded up Dragonfly carts with all the trimmings.

 

Why wouldn't these same folks buy or build an enhanced controller?

Maybe Fred or RJ can enlighten us to the amount of their products are selling.

 

I think there is now a market for this.

Regarding spinners, yeah, the encoders are cheap, but you need to add a shaft, bearings, and a heavy wheel to actually make it spin. Could be a Left right stick. or up down stick. Could be anything digital. Could also be a trackball and two fewer action buttons. A tracball would work like a spinner with the north/south inputs ignored.

 

The LEFT port connections are standard.

• Joystick
• Two standard buttons

The RIGHT port connections are the "enhancements".

• Three extra buttons                                                 One extra button
• Two direction wheel / spinner               OR                A trackball
• Two Pots                                                                Two pots

I think we'd see more games using the second controller input if it was easier to use them, think Raiders or Stargate. "Oh shit! I have to reach for the other joystick to hyperspace. Not fast enough. I'm dead."

[Zonie]

21 hours ago, edladdin said:

I love these ideas!

And if we come up with a standard we all can agree upon, you'd probably be the guy to commercialize it.

[Swami]

2 hours ago, Zonie said:

And if we come up with a standard we all can agree upon, you'd probably be the guy to commercialize it.

We already have a trackball controller -- 4 of them actually: CX22, CX80, ST mouse, Amiga mouse. Besides 7800 centipede trackball, I haven't seen any interest in it, not even millipede or crystal castles.

[+x=usr(1536)]

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

The LEFT port connections are standard.

• Joystick
• Two standard buttons

The RIGHT port connections are the "enhancements".

• Three extra buttons                                                 One extra button
• Two direction wheel / spinner               OR                A trackball
• Two Pots                                                                Two pots

I think we'd see more games using the second controller input if it was easier to use them, think Raiders or Stargate. "Oh shit! I have to reach for the other joystick to hyperspace. Not fast enough. I'm dead."

 

This could (mostly) be accomplished with an off-the-shelf X-Arcade Tankstick and the addition of the pot-based controllers.

 

Something like that would actually be rather useful - the ability to move the controls between systems would be a huge plus.  Arduino / RasPi conversion to Atari DB-9 standard would handle the logic of mating USB controls to the console / computer.  Hmm...

[doubledown]

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

Edladdin controllers are $120-$220 and they are selling.

Yes they do, but a great many more people opt for a much, much cheaper (and smaller) solution, like an NES-esque controller, or a small adapter that allows for a Genesis controller to be used.

 

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

People are adding $20 extra to a $40 homebrew to get the box.

Yes, due to the mentality of the collector's "mind", that the more complete something is, the more it will be worth in the future when looking to sell.  It's simply market speculation.

 

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

People are ordering loaded up Dragonfly carts with all the trimmings.

Multi-carts are a no-brainer, sales-wise.  One small price, and you can play every game ever made, plus every new one that comes out later that is digitally distributed.  What's more cost effective, a decked out Dragonfly/Concerto (which can play nearly every game)...or 1 copy each of Commando and Ikari Warriors (which is only 2 games)?  Not to mention the obvious convenience of not having to store, and swap carts?  

 

Additionally I would be concerned with (but nobody else would be probably) overall ergonomics of a controller with so many controls shoe-horned into it, unless it was fairly large.  And there are lots of people that have "storage" concerns wherein they simply don't have room to store large controllers.  

 

Again, I'm all for crazy, wild custom controllers, many I've built for simply 1 game...but it's the chicken and the egg.  You can't have the games if the controllers don't exist, and the controllers won't get built, until the games exist.  As @Swami mentions, there are plenty of Trak-Ball solutions available for the 7800...and how many people are fighting/rushing to release games that make use of them...and again, these Trak-Balls already exist.  

[+x=usr(1536)]

28 minutes ago, doubledown said:

Additionally I would be concerned with (but nobody else would be probably) overall ergonomics of a controller with so many controls shoe-horned into it, unless it was fairly large.  And there are lots of people that have "storage" concerns wherein they simply don't have room to store large controllers.

 

Speaking as someone who has, in the past, built the arcade cabinet control panel that was a) ridiculously huge and b) festooned with damn near every conceivable controller, this is a very valid consideration.  It's incredibly easy to start out with good intentions and end up with an overcrowded, awkward, barely-usable mess.  Separate controls make a great deal of sense when trying to eliminate or circumvent this problem.

 

Using the Tankstick as an example again: that is about as big as a controller can be and still be usable by the majority of humans.  It has the controls (sticks, buttons, trackball) the vast majority of games use most frequently built in, with ones seen less-frequently (anything pot-based, light guns, etc.) completely absent.

 

With the appropriate microcontroller in place, any of these controls should be usable with just about any system from the past.  But going for an everything-on-the-same-panel approach becomes impractical very quickly.

[doubledown]

I'd say the biggest problem I would have with something a Tank-stick is simply the overall size/weight, as it doesn't lend itself to be used in one's lap.  At almost 30" wide, 15 pounds, and the controls laid out left side P1, right side P2 biased, it pretty much has to be used on a table.  Which is fine if that's your setup, but I play a lot of games in a recliner with the controller in my my lap, or at a desk...with my feet up on the desk...and the controller in my lap.  

[Zonie]

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

This could (mostly) be accomplished with an off-the-shelf X-Arcade Tankstick and the addition of the pot-based controllers.

 

Something like that would actually be rather useful - the ability to move the controls between systems would be a huge plus.  Arduino / RasPi conversion to Atari DB-9 standard would handle the logic of mating USB controls to the console / computer.  Hmm...

You know, I've been considering an Arduino or RPi converter so that any USB controller can be plugged into it and the DIO and AIO can be used to interface with the console. With an RPi, one could configure such a controller any way one wants. Hmm... Indeed. On first search, I came up with only things that go the other way, so an off the shelf solution is out. Gonna have to design one...

Bottom line, we still would need a standard of what I/O would be used for the game developers.

 

[Zonie]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Speaking as someone who has, in the past, built the arcade cabinet control panel that was a) ridiculously huge and b) festooned with damn near every conceivable controller, this is a very valid consideration.  It's incredibly easy to start out with good intentions and end up with an overcrowded, awkward, barely-usable mess.  Separate controls make a great deal of sense when trying to eliminate or circumvent this problem.

 

Using the Tankstick as an example again: that is about as big as a controller can be and still be usable by the majority of humans.  It has the controls (sticks, buttons, trackball) the vast majority of games use most frequently built in, with ones seen less-frequently (anything pot-based, light guns, etc.) completely absent.

 

With the appropriate microcontroller in place, any of these controls should be usable with just about any system from the past.  But going for an everything-on-the-same-panel approach becomes impractical very quickly.

Oh, totally. I never finished my Mame cabinet that I started in 2001 simply because of the analysis paralysis I encountered trying to come up with a control panel that wasn't a total overcrowded abortion. I actually was going to make a four sided control panel that rotated. I still have the lazy susan bearings for it. Years later, a coworker of mine actually showed me his, and he had the same concept, but used PVC pipe flanges as the axle.

I think if we come up with a standard, and like X=usr and I were thinking, a converter. Then a lot of folks may opt for a $12 USB version of a dual shock like in the pic below, which ticks all the boxes for controls, and allows for the "feet on the desk" play capability. Although, my 50+ year old hands never got used to one... But, it still needs a control logic standard.

Maybe this project is just that. A standard, and an easily programmable interface. Then the hardware cost is minimal ($40 RPi, $12 for two cables, $3 box) and some code. A lot of long hours getting the code to work.  Now it's a $50-70 off the shelf adapter or a do-it-yourself project with only having to buy the parts and buy the code from someone.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Zonie

[+x=usr(1536)]

25 minutes ago, Zonie said:

You know, I've been considering an Arduino or RPi converter so that any USB controller can be plugged into it and the DIO and AIO can be used to interface with the console. With an RPi, one could configure such a controller any way one wants. Hmm... Indeed. On first search, I came up with only things that go the other way, so an off the shelf solution is out. Gonna have to design one...

Yep.  I've been noticing that as well - I'd like to be able to use USB controllers I already own with older systems, partly to cut down wear & tear on the original controllers, but also to have a pool of stuff made with arcade parts that can just plug right in.

25 minutes ago, Zonie said:

Bottom line, we still would need a standard of what I/O would be used for the game developers.

Maybe, maybe not.  I was thinking that the microcontroller / RasPi / whatever could just translate control inputs to whatever the system in use was expecting.  Doing it that way would allow for different profiles to be stored - so a single microcontroller could conceivably support any, say, 9-pin D-sub joystick regardless of whether it was being connected to an Atari, Commodore, ZX Spectrum, etc.

 

Obviously if there are physical differences in the sticks (e.g., wiring) there may not be a good way to make that happen, but it is at least a possibility.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, doubledown said:

I'd say the biggest problem I would have with something a Tank-stick is simply the overall size/weight, as it doesn't lend itself to be used in one's lap.  At almost 30" wide, 15 pounds, and the controls laid out left side P1, right side P2 biased, it pretty much has to be used on a table.  Which is fine if that's your setup, but I play a lot of games in a recliner with the controller in my my lap, or at a desk...with my feet up on the desk...and the controller in my lap.  

Agreed, but no one controller is going to fit all situations.

 

FWIW, I comfortably use my Tankstick sitting on the couch, but not reclined; it's definitely too big for that particular position.  That said, it's great for when my wife and I want to play doubles.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Oh, snap.  This just cropped up in my YouTube subscriptions.

 

 

And also:

 

https://retrohax.net/the-mouster-project-is-here/

 

This device is probably 80% of the way there.  Need to figure out if it can (or eventually will) handle analogue controller inputs, but it seems to have figured out the USB-to-Atari interface for the most part.

[Swami]

1 hour ago, Zonie said:

Oh, totally. I never finished my Mame cabinet that I started in 2001 simply because of the analysis paralysis I encountered trying to come up with a control panel that wasn't a total overcrowded abortion. I actually was going to make a four sided control panel that rotated. I still have the lazy susan bearings for it. Years later, a coworker of mine actually showed me his, and he had the same concept, but used PVC pipe flanges as the axle.

I think if we come up with a standard, and like X=usr and I were thinking, a converter. Then a lot of folks may opt for a $12 USB version of a dual shock like in the pic below, which ticks all the boxes for controls, and allows for the "feet on the desk" play capability. Although, my 50+ year old hands never got used to one... But, it still needs a control logic standard.

Maybe this project is just that. A standard, and an easily programmable interface. Then the hardware cost is minimal ($40 RPi, $12 for two cables, $3 box) and some code. A lot of long hours getting the code to work.  Now it's a $50-70 off the shelf adapter or a do-it-yourself project with only having to buy the parts and buy the code from someone.

You can use a Wii U controller using currently available hardware, although no analog.

Seagull 78 adapter (7800 to genesis controller) and plug the 8bitdo retro receiver into it. This also allows a few other bluetooth controllers.

 

You can use a TOM2 or TOM2+ adapter for usb gamepad controllers or usb trackball/mouse to atari trackball/mouse. These are a little on the sensitive side and lose ability to change firmware like 20% of the time and will brick from ESD.  The Rys MKII does the same thing (only difference is requiring firmware to go from Amiga mouse to Atari mouse). I don't think the Rys does wireless.

 

There are also PSX to genesis adapters you can use with the Seagull 78. I think Tototek makes one.

 

...and, this one lets you use a PS/2 compatible mouse as an Amiga 2-button joystick (pin 6 and 9), I'll have to check if Amiga compatible works on the 7800.

[Zonie]

49 minutes ago, Swami said:

You can use a Wii U controller using currently available hardware, although no analog.

Seagull 78 adapter (7800 to genesis controller) and plug the 8bitdo retro receiver into it. This also allows a few other bluetooth controllers.

 

You can use a TOM2 or TOM2+ adapter for usb gamepad controllers or usb trackball/mouse to atari trackball/mouse. These are a little on the sensitive side and lose ability to change firmware like 20% of the time and will brick from ESD.  The Rys MKII does the same thing (only difference is requiring firmware to go from Amiga mouse to Atari mouse). I don't think the Rys does wireless.

 

There are also PSX to genesis adapters you can use with the Seagull 78. I think Tototek makes one.

 

...and, this one lets you use a PS/2 compatible mouse as an Amiga 2-button joystick (pin 6 and 9), I'll have to check if Amiga compatible works on the 7800.

All good things.
We just need to establish a control standard so we can get games that use all of the added features of these things...