Ultimate Controller (Again)

[Swami]

1 minute ago, Zonie said:

All good things.
We just need to establish a control standard so we can get games that use all of the added features of these things...

 

Well, I gotta say: I dislike thumbsticks for analog...or digital; and thumbsticks/dpads are generally going to be lacking for maze or ladder games.

[Shawn]

39 minutes ago, Zonie said:

All good things.
We just need to establish a control standard so we can get games that use all of the added features of these things...

 

 

You keep saying "we" when it's really a situation for "I" as it's just you advocating for this. The "we" in this conversation are saying this is a no go.

[Zonie]

1 minute ago, Shawn said:

 

You keep saying "we" when it's really a situation for "I" as it's just you advocating for this. The "we" in this conversation are saying this is a no go.

Well, unless I'm imagining all the other comments and discussion, there definitely is a "we". Sure "I" am advocating this, but "We" are discussing it. I'm sure that developers would like to add more features, but cannot, because there is no standard to do so other than what has been done before, which we all can agree, probably sucks.

 

[doubledown]

Well the obvious and easiest to implement "extra" feature (hardware & software-wise), would be to add up to 6 extra buttons (as necessary).  Build/buy a controller with as many as 8 buttons, and plug a 2nd cable into the 2nd controller port, and make use of the 2nd port's U/D/L/R/LB/RB inputs.  Then, just think of a good game that requires somewhere between 3-8 buttons, that you can get a programmer to program for the 7800.  How about a proper 3-button port of the beloved 7800 Double Dragon!?!  How 'bout Spy Hunter for the 7800?  Think big people!

[Zonie]

And to drive the point of this activity, The Concerto adds Pokey. The Dragonfly and XM add Pokey and Yamaha. Both are hardware enhancements that increase the capability of the console. Games that use Pokey still run without it just like Prince of Persia, for example, ran on a PC without a Soundblaster for better sound. I'm sure the Yamaha games will too. Why not enhanced controls?

Standard controls = Button for throttle. Drive like a kid in a go-cart or a Korean driver, Gas to the floor or off.

Enhanced controls = a pot input for analog throttle control.

 

Both selectable in a menu, or even detectable, perhaps. Game looks at voltage on the pot line. 0=standard, voltage greater than 0 = gas pedal present...

That sort of thing.

 

Isn't making the 7800 better the ultimate goal here?

[AtariBrian]

27 minutes ago, Zonie said:

 I'm sure that developers would like to add more features, but cannot, because there is no standard to do so other than what has been done before, which we all can agree, probably sucks.

 

You're sure?? 100 percent sure?? Or do you mean you would assume??

[Zonie]

10 minutes ago, doubledown said:

Well the obvious and easiest to implement "extra" feature (hardware & software-wise), would be to add up to 6 extra buttons (as necessary).  Build/buy a controller with as many as 8 buttons, and plug a 2nd cable into the 2nd controller port, and make use of the 2nd port's U/D/L/R/LB/RB inputs.  Then, just think of a good game that requires somewhere between 3-8 buttons, that you can get a programmer to program for the 7800.  How about a proper 3-button port of the beloved 7800 Double Dragon!?!  How 'bout Spy Hunter for the 7800?  Think big people!

Yes! Exactly. How about three base Missile Command? There is already a 2600 hack, I think. This might could prompt a developer to make a proper missile command for our beloved console, or hack asteroids / space rocks, etc. to have shields and hyperspace at the same time...

The 7800 is all about 80's arcade ports. Why not make more of them possible.

This might just end up being a standard for the right port  just provide 2-5 buttons and a paddle. I also think more would make use of a driving type controller plugged into the right port if one was more readily available, as not a lot of people seem to have them.

[Zonie]

28 minutes ago, AtariBrian said:

You're sure?? 100 percent sure?? Or do you mean you would assume??

100% sure? No. If it were me, Yes. I'm sure I'd use them. That said, I cannot be the only one who would want to do this.

If you build it, they will come.

[doubledown]

The more I think about it, there is no reason to "develop a standard"...as it already exists.  The 7800 console itself, as built and in it's current state of existence, is your endpoint limit of what the control possibilities are.  Each controller port can read "x" number of discrete digital inputs, "x" number of analog potentiometers, and "x" number of digital encoders...simultaneously, or alternately...so that is the "standard."  There is nothing stopping anybody, right this second, from programming a game that can make use of some, or all of the possible available inputs.  Then simply tell those who wish to play said game..."to play this game, your controller will need this quantity, of these type of input devices, wired to these ports/pins." 

 

Now, you just need to find the programmer, to program whatever game you're looking for, and from my understanding most of them are just sitting around waiting for requests.  ?

 

[Shawn]

47 minutes ago, Zonie said:

100% sure? No. If it were me, Yes. I'm sure I'd use them. That said, I cannot be the only one who would want to do this.

If you build it, they will come.

 

Well then you just need to build the controllers and program the games to use them and put them up for sale. Let us all know when they are ready for purchase. "Simple as that".

[+GoldLeader]

I'd say the biggest takeaway I see is the word "Optional".  If someone comes up with a cool controller idea, it would need to be an option in the menu, just icing on the cake, which is what has been said.

 

Personally I wish there was a spinner/paddle plus joystick type controller for things like Arkanoid or anything like Tron.

[Zonie]

1 hour ago, Shawn said:

 

Well then you just need to build the controllers and program the games to use them and put them up for sale. Let us all know when they are ready for purchase. "Simple as that".

This isn't helping. Disagreeing with something is your prerogative, but Pooh-poohing it is just a waste of time. If you don't like it, ignore it and move on.

Coming up with a standard isn't going to hurt anyone, and it may also not ever generate new content, but it also may, so what's the harm in coming up with something and agreeing to it? It doesn't have to be what I proposed. But something would be better than nothing, and the controller suppliers could always offer something, that if available and compatible with current games but offers standardized options for new stuff, its then already in the marketplace and someone may program for it.

1 hour ago, doubledown said:

The more I think about it, there is no reason to "develop a standard"...as it already exists.  The 7800 console itself, as built and in it's current state of existence, is your endpoint limit of what the control possibilities are.  Each controller port can read "x" number of discrete digital inputs, "x" number of analog potentiometers, and "x" number of digital encoders...simultaneously, or alternately...so that is the "standard."  There is nothing stopping anybody, right this second, from programming a game that can make use of some, or all of the possible available inputs.  Then simply tell those who wish to play said game..."to play this game, your controller will need this quantity, of these type of input devices, wired to these ports/pins." 

 

Now, you just need to find the programmer, to program whatever game you're looking for, and from my understanding most of them are just sitting around waiting for requests.  ?

 

Well, yes and no. Sure, your approach can work and is the current state of the art, but nobody is doing anything because of the problem that a special controller is needed. So, the current scenario is: Developer x comes up with one scheme, and developer y another, they are incompatible and the users need two controllers or some method of switching the IO if they want both games. This doesn't move the bar at all. It doesn't help make it any easier to program more features or sell more games, so nobody bothers.

 

Regarding your comment about them just sitting around waiting for requests.  I know that they are not. None of us do this other than for a hobby. What I am trying to accomplish is a de-facto standard so that in the case a developer wants to add a button or something, but has not as there is no standard to follow, he/she does not. If there is, more people may be able to play the game with the options, and thus, more people will buy it. It moves us forward.

 

Having a negative attitude about it is like saying the Dragonfly and XM are not a good idea because I have to have one to play games with YM sound. And yes, I mention the XM as it was the one of the three that would play actual cartridges, something the other two do not, and I have no idea how people are going to go to a digital distro on new games because even though most of us would keep it to ourselves since we paid for it, someone will always share the file.

 

 

 

[Zonie]

2 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

I'd say the biggest takeaway I see is the word "Optional".  If someone comes up with a cool controller idea, it would need to be an option in the menu, just icing on the cake, which is what has been said.

 

Personally I wish there was a spinner/paddle plus joystick type controller for things like Arkanoid or anything like Tron.

Yes. Exactly. You get it.

[CPUWIZ]

8 minutes ago, Zonie said:

Having a negative attitude about it is like saying the Dragonfly and XM are not a good idea because I have to have one to play games with YM sound. And yes, I mention the XM as it was the one of the three that would play actual cartridges, something the other two do not, and I have no idea how people are going to go to a digital distro on new games because even though most of us would keep it to ourselves since we paid for it, someone will always share the file.

 

I have that attitude, if a homebrew author can't sell his game on cart, it's a waste of time.  I am even for making games that do not work on flash carts (and my board can).  Making a game for a hypothetical controller is also a waste of time, what needs to happen is someone who makes said game, comes up with a special controller for it.  Ala, TimeCrisis or Guitar Hero or ...

 

Everybody always cries about digital game downloads on modern consoles, why introduce this to retro systems?

[Shawn]

39 minutes ago, Zonie said:

This isn't helping. Disagreeing with something is your prerogative, but Pooh-poohing it is just a waste of time. If you don't like it, ignore it and move on.

 

 

 

 

I said for you to build the controllers and program the games you are talking about and then to put them up for sale for people to buy them. Where is the problem here?

 

EDIT: If you are mad because you don't actually have a design, can't build these controllers or program games to go with them if you did that is another thing. You can't get mad at me cause you are not able to see any of these things to completion.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Shawn

[+batari]

9 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

I have that attitude, if a homebrew author can't sell his game on cart, it's a waste of time.  I am even for making games that do not work on flash carts (and my board can).  Making a game for a hypothetical controller is also a waste of time, what needs to happen is someone who makes said game, comes up with a special controller for it.  Ala, TimeCrisis or Guitar Hero or ...

 

Everybody always cries about digital game downloads on modern consoles, why introduce this to retro systems?

I agree with the sentiment about games on cart. I thought the XM was a great idea because it allowed for homebrew authors to create carts without needing the sound chips on the boards themselves. That was the entire point of it, I thought. While sound chips on a flashcart is cool too, I think its utility is limited. It's good for demos but not homebrews so much, as I think the main point of creating a game is to have carts released.

 

Even though POKEY boards are available, I don't think it's all that feasible anymore to release games with a POKEY chip, given the current replacements are so expensive and OEM POKEY chips are getting hard to come by for a reasonable price. A single chip for homebrew games simply can't cost $45 like a POKEYOne, much less $69 for a POKEYMax, and be useful anymore except for a handful of one-offs. Even the ubiquitous, and still affordable YM2151 chip from the XM requires so much extra circuitry on a PCB that it's not really feasible for homebrews either, without the XM.

 

This is why any sound chip I create is intended for homebrew games. If it also works on flashcarts, that's good too.

 

That said, I think digital downloads are fine, but they will never be a suitable replacement for carts. I think digital downloads are only reasonable if there is also a cart release available.

[Zonie]

2 hours ago, Shawn said:

 

I said for you to build the controllers and program the games you are talking about and then to put them up for sale for people to buy them. Where is the problem here?

 

EDIT: If you are mad because you don't actually have a design, can't build these controllers or program games to go with them if you did that is another thing. You can't get mad at me cause you are not able to see any of these things to completion.

I'm not mad. I can and do build controllers.

I'm an industrial controls engineer. Shit you have in your phone and computer is a result of work I have done. You're welcome.

I don't write games.

I'm just saying that your negativity is counter productive.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Zonie

[+DrVenkman]

9 minutes ago, Zonie said:

I'm just saying that your negativity is counter productive.

And I think Shawn is saying that:

 

IF (*hard work done by others happens with no pay and no guarantee of recompense for their efforts happens*) THEN (*awesome stuff magically occurs*) 

 

is also counter productive.

[Shawn]

34 minutes ago, Zonie said:

I'm not mad. I can and do build controllers.

I'm an industrial controls engineer. Shit you have in your phone and computer is a result of work I have done. You're welcome.

I don't write games.

I'm just saying that your negativity is counter productive.

 

I don't own a cellphone and have not since the late 90's cause I think they are a cancer to society. I have no idea who you work for but unless it's Sony you don't have a controller attached to my PC. Glad you think what you have done in your field of work deserves thanks but I have not given you any. What you perceive as negativity is actually reality and you just don't like it. Go build your controller and offer it to the masses if you are so sure of it. Without software to back it up, as others have mentioned, it's going nowhere fast. You have mentioned you do not have the means to make such software so that avenue is a bust as well. I understand you are kinda spitballing here for an idea you like but none of it is sticking to the wall. That is not a productive thing to do either if you want to look at it that way. 

[nyandeyanen]

Not to step into the line of fire, but as I mentioned the Apple II joystick already uses two analog inputs. Perhaps it's worth creating a small adapter which accepts the Apple II joystick input and attaches the two analog paddle inputs and both buttons to the right place on the Atari controller input. There are adapters already in existence for the Apple II which allow you to attach modern controllers, including the one linked to below which works through a mobile phone via bluetooth, or just using the built-in sensors on the phone. It honestly shouldn't be that hard to make an adapter since it's just two potentiometers and two switches on the Apple II side, maybe you'd need to change the reported values a bit to make the Atari happy. It could be used for paddle titles, and anyone interested could make a game which works with it.

http://craftymech.com/a2io/

[Swami]

Well, here is what I have seen for 2nd gen consoles and 7800. Programmers have all used commonly available controllers. The only cross-overs I've seen have been been for the 2600 which has tons of programmers/hackers compared to a few for the 7800. Those have been for the Genesis 3-button controller and Atari ST and Amiga mice.

 

A dozen trackball hacks of 2600 games made for CX22/80, ST mouse and Amiga mouse

A dozen or so 2-button hacks of 2600 games (and a couple new games) for the genesis 3 button controller

A new 2600 game for the driving controller

A new partial Tron ROM for the 2600 that used the tron trigger stick in port 0 and cx22/80 in port 1 (for the spinner)

A couple new 2600 games that use the keypads.

A new 2600 game that uses the light gun (Bobby Needs Food)

So many 2600 homebrews/hacks I may have missed a couple.

Asteroids and Omega Race clones for the 5200 that use the 5200 trak-ball and 8-bit ports for the CX22/80 and driving controller

A couple new games for the 5200 that use the 5200 trak-ball (Fairy Force, Missile Command Plus and another, I think)

A dozen or so Atari 8-bit computer games made or hacked for trak-ball/mice and light gun.

A CX22/80 hack of Centipede for the 7800

Atariage Circus homebrew and a couple others for the 7800 that uses 2600 paddles as an option

Two new roller controller option games for the ColecoVision (Armageddon and Arkanoid)

A new driving controller game for the ColecoVision (Burn Rubber)

Maybe some C64 games I'm unaware of.

 

New adapters:

bohoki adapter that allows using DOS controllers on existing 5200 games. 

Masterplay and clones: allow genesis and Atari 2600 controllers with existing 2600 games. 

Seagull 78 that allows genesis controllers to be used with existing 7800 games. 

Adapters that allow for USB controllers to be used with 2600 and Atari 8-bit computer and with other adapters, the 5200 and 7800. Most of these were actually made for the Atari ST or Amigas. 

 

 

Also, I did have a programmer make a 5200 hack of pole position to swap the two buttons with up/down to make the acceleration and braking analog, while making the high/low shift digital so it could be compatible with a few DOS compatible racing wheels with digital shifter and analog pedals mapped to up and down. I think it got 4 downloads cuz no one wanted to buy and fiddle with the pots of a big 90s DOS racing wheel for $50 for one old game. Not many DOS racing game fans in the 5200 community, I guess.

 

My guess is there are too few programmers for the 7800 so that it didn't get swamped with games and hacks that inspired someone to do something unusual out of boredom. You'll notice like 90% of those in my list are 2600 or 8-bit Atari computer, which use the same controllers. Also, people in this retro community like nostalgia, which is why there was demand for new games from original controllers. The genesis controller games are the closest we've gotten to out-of-the-box.

 

My guess it what we need is a lot more 7800 programmers who will make good games which may lead to what you want. Of course, that means people who want to put a big effort into programming good games, which is a lot to expect.

[Zonie]

58 minutes ago, Shawn said:

 

I don't own a cellphone and have not since the late 90's cause I think they are a cancer to society. I have no idea who you work for but unless it's Sony you don't have a controller attached to my PC. Glad you think what you have done in your field of work deserves thanks but I have not given you any. What you perceive as negativity is actually reality and you just don't like it. Go build your controller and offer it to the masses if you are so sure of it. Without software to back it up, as others have mentioned, it's going nowhere fast. You have mentioned you do not have the means to make such software so that avenue is a bust as well. I understand you are kinda spitballing here for an idea you like but none of it is sticking to the wall. That is not a productive thing to do either if you want to look at it that way. 

You continually misinterpret or inject your assumptions about me, my abilities, and my goal here. I have no desire to enter a dick size competition with you. To clarify, it's not that I don't have the means or the skill. I don't have the time or desire. Countless hours of coding is not my thing. I did enough of that in the past. Hardware and PCB design are my thing.

Regarding my past contribution to technology, I'm not talking about making a controller attached to your PC. I co-developed enabling technology that allowed the microprocessor inside of it to break 300Mhz and allow the continuance of Moore's law way beyond expectation. I only mention this because you appear to assume I'm some adult kid still living in mom's basement who doesn't have any technical skills. I've said it before, You are welcome to ignore this topic if you have nothing positive to add but you cannot seem to help yourself bring negativity, judging by your content history. You even were negative about Edladdin's controllers at the beginning, and look at them now. You had disdain for the inclusion of the Yamaha in the XM, yet people want that chip, and the work being done with it is amazing. The list goes on.

Why do these technical and hobby forums always have to be full of kids who cannot make nice in the sandbox?

[nyandeyanen]

If you want to make this happen you're pretty much going to have to ignore the negativity and put together a prototype. I think it's a pretty good idea personally, if you're willing to run with the Apple II paddle to Atari paddle idea I could probably put together a small adapter board after looking into the specifications though you could probably make a better one if you do PCB design professionally. I did this one a few years ago for an early model of the 4play Apple II card so it could work with Genesis gamepads in my exhibit at the Vintage Computer Festival. It would be a bit more complex since I assume the pins will be different and the potentiometer range probably needs to be scaled to what the Atari expects, but it's not entirely out of the realm of an easy implementation.

[Zonie]

8 minutes ago, nyandeyanen said:

If you want to make this happen you're pretty much going to have to ignore the negativity and put together a prototype. I think it's a pretty good idea personally, if you're willing to run with the Apple II paddle to Atari paddle idea I could probably put together a small adapter board after looking into the specifications though you could probably make a better one if you do PCB design professionally. I did this one a few years ago for an early model of the 4play Apple II card so it could work with Genesis gamepads in my exhibit at the Vintage Computer Festival. It would be a bit more complex since I assume the pins will be different and the potentiometer range probably needs to be scaled to what the Atari expects, but it's not entirely out of the realm of an easy implementation.

Thanks, Yeah, I'm thinking about making some prototypes.

Maybe a USB to 7800 adapter and maybe a full on controller. I started one years ago but life got busy. Gotta fix the print head on my printer so I can print some parts.

Regarding the use of analog sticks, I love 'em, but game consoles do not and what's connected to the left port needs to remain standard. That's my only caveat on this so games are not useless without an advanced controller, just fewer features.

the trackball idea someone had was a good one, as it saves cost over a spinner...But. I like games that use a spinner.

 

[nyandeyanen]

3 minutes ago, Zonie said:

Thanks, Yeah, I'm thinking about making some prototypes.

Maybe a USB to 7800 adapter and maybe a full on controller. I started one years ago but life got busy. Gotta fix the print head on my printer so I can print some parts.

Regarding the use of analog sticks, I love 'em, but game consoles do not and what's connected to the left port needs to remain standard. That's my only caveat on this so games are not useless without an advanced controller, just fewer features.

the trackball idea someone had was a good one, as it saves cost over a spinner...But. I like games that use a spinner.

 

All you need to do for analog sticks is utilize the same interface as the paddles, the Atari already supports 2 paddles on each port. Just utilize the 2 potentiometers as the X and Y axis. The driving controller's software interface could be used to support spinner functionality. If you utilize existing interfaces then the level of friction against your idea is likely to go down. Otherwise I imagine you're going to have to code and document the interface yourself. It'll be interesting to see the prototype when you're done.