Ultimate Controller (Again)

[doubledown]

24 minutes ago, Swami said:

Doesn't *have* to be that big:

Well that doesn't have any sort of rotary controller(s) or a trak-ball, so it doesn't include everything possible.  So to include "everything"...it would certainly have to be bigger than that...but again I'm not advocating an all-in-one controller, simply a "standard" control scheme.  Your example would be a fine inexpensive solution for a port of some sort of flying game that can make use of analog controls...who wants to port Afterburner to the 7800?

 

22 minutes ago, Zonie said:

OK that's pretty much what I came up with too, but I inadvertently thought the spinner encoder was on left and right. See my schematic first post. You also are forgetting the fire button on the right port. That is button 3, and up and down are 4 and 5 respectively. I'll update my schematic to reflect the correct pins on the rotary encoder.

ZoNiE Controller Rev A.pdf 105.49 kB · 2 downloads

I was just considering what could be done "easily" (if actually possible), based on the given existing 2600 controller wiring schemes, that shouldn't cause interference with anything else.  

[Swami]

18 minutes ago, doubledown said:

Well that doesn't have any sort of rotary controller(s) or a trak-ball, so it doesn't include everything possible.  So to include "everything"...it would certainly have to be bigger than that...but again I'm not advocating an all-in-one controller, simply a "standard" control scheme.  Your example would be a fine inexpensive solution for a port of some sort of flying game that can make use of analog controls...who wants to port Afterburner to the 7800?

 

I was just considering what could be done "easily" (if actually possible), based on the given existing 2600 controller wiring schemes, that shouldn't cause interference with anything else.  

Well, you'd replace the flight stick with a joystick and the d-pad with a spinner and then it would be what you want, only smaller. You'd said  "or trackball", so, I assume the trackball would replace the joystick. A little cramped, I admit, but it's a proof of concept.

[Shawn]

I had a look at the PDF posted. It's a lot like what CPUWIZ did with his DS2 to 7800 adapter. Sadly, it had no interest either.

[doubledown]

7 hours ago, Swami said:

Well, you'd replace the flight stick with a joystick and the d-pad with a spinner and then it would be what you want, only smaller. You'd said  "or trackball", so, I assume the trackball would replace the joystick. A little cramped, I admit, but it's a proof of concept.

Oh, I thought you meant to use that actual controller, but you were just talking about and size I guess.  And you're right, it only has to be as physically large as it needs to be, so that the necessary/desired controls can physically be installed into it.  What I should have said, is that if I were making something with all of those controls, and I was going to use it...it would have to be really really big, due to my person preferences regarding layout, physical intererences, and ergonomics.  But different people have different ideas of what's too big, and what's too small.  Some care about physical interferences from one controller when manipulating another...and some don't.  Some care about control layout ergonomics when actually manipulating the controls...and some don't.  And some care about support/rest area for your hands when using an arcade controller...and some don't.  Most people are more than satisfied playing vintage games on their touch-screen phones/tablets, or with a "d-pad" controller, because these solutions are very inexpensive, and take up very little room.  I however, am a self-admitted "snob/enthusiast" when it comes to arcade/joystick controllers, wherein I don't simply want the smallest/cheapest solution that might get the job done, for some short time before it breaks.  I want exactly what I want...and if that means it gets built into a large 20" wide enclosure to provide the spacing/room I feel that it needs, then it gets built into a large 20" enclosure.  If I want to use rare/expensive/authentic, original arcade controls, and the overall build costs me $300, $400, $500...then so be it.  I understand that I am the outlier with regards to most of this...but I often forget.  

 

Irregardless of any of this, it all comes down to having games that can make use of any extra/enhanced controls.  If and when those games exist, it can be decided/determined if there will simply be an adapter needed to use an existing controller to provide the extra functionality, (similarly, probably, to what CPUWIZ did for the DS2 controllers), or it's a custom built controller to fit the bill.  Obviously the I/O is there at the P2 controller port to add plenty of more features, and it's been there all this time.  But because homebrewers, I believe, want people to actually play their games, they program them to make use of the limited I/O at the P1 controller port, because that's what people have controllers for....a joystick, and 2 buttons.    

[Zonie]

Ultimately, this scheme could be used to interface a regular modern controller like a playstation, Xbox, etc. This would make these games more interesting to younger gamers who grew up with them. I'm not as adept at using them but the idea is to move the bar forward, gain a larger audience. The flight stick shown probably does have a pot in the throttle and does have a joystick on top of the flight stick. I have seen some with wheels up there too, so the spinner would provide input for that. If the stick on top is analog, then the two pot lines would handle that and the throttle can be handled by the spinner. Lots of ways to spin this. LOL.

 

And I agree that Homebrewers have only been using port 1 partly because they had no need or desire, and, I can only assume, partly because no agreed standard exists on HOW to use port 2. If a controller could be made available that sells in sufficient quantities that they are out there, and there is a standard agreed upon method to use it, we hopefully will see it used.

 

Quite frankly, I'm surprised Atari (or hombrewers, for that matter) didn't/dont use the joystick in port 1 and the keyboard/VTP in port 2 (like Star Raiders) or a driving controller in one of the ports and maybe a holder for both it and a joystick for more games, but many people didn't have either or both, and the latter would have requred yet another piece of hardware (the holder), and, they were cheapskates. Everyone did have paddles, though, at least with the non jr 2600's packed in, so they could have done something with that. Being cheap with ROM in the carts was probably a factor then.

 

This is a perfect opportunity to come up with something instead of getting what Atari did and living with it and then 40 years later saying "gee, they should have done this or that instead". This allows us to improve it. It's our time. It's monday morning QB time, with a DeLorean to go back and fix it.

 

The inputs are and have always been there for us, we just haven't standardized on how to use them.

I'll have to look up CPUWIZ's adapter and that Tom+ thing. I must have missed that. One of these could be the standard or the basis of one.

[Shawn]

20 minutes ago, Zonie said:

 

 

The inputs are and have always been there for us, we just haven't standardized on how to use them.

I'll have to look up CPUWIZ's adapter and that Tom+ thing. I must have missed that. One of these could be the standard or the basis of one.

 

That's the thing though, nobody wanted it. Not players and not programmers. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

39 minutes ago, Zonie said:

The inputs are and have always been there for us, we just haven't standardized on how to use them.

 

This has me wondering about something:

 

Is each non-pot pin on the standard D-sub 9-pin joystick connector only capable of being read as high / low, or is it possible to send different values over those pins?

 

My thinking is that if this just a limitation of the OS, design the additional controls so that ones that need to be are on a matrix similar to a 5200 keypad (or DTMF keypad).  Depending on which column and row a button sits on, a different value is created and sent over <insert pin here>.  As long as everyone can agree on what those values need to be, the code to read those inputs would be more or less the same from program to program.

[Zonie]

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

This has me wondering about something:

 

Is each non-pot pin on the standard D-sub 9-pin joystick connector only capable of being read as high / low, or is it possible to send different values over those pins?

 

My thinking is that if this just a limitation of the OS, design the additional controls so that ones that need to be are on a matrix similar to a 5200 keypad (or DTMF keypad).  Depending on which column and row a button sits on, a different value is created and sent over <insert pin here>.  As long as everyone can agree on what those values need to be, the code to read those inputs would be more or less the same from program to program.

I'd have to look a the console schematics to answer the first part. As for the matrix, sure, you could probably create a matrix with resistor values (what I think you are getting at here) and the code could probably read it, but too much variation from different quality components, voltage drop on the cables, solder issues, etc, that it may be more trouble than it is worth.

I really think keeping to the "standard" types of connections to the existing inputs (pots on pot lines, switches on digital lines) is probably best and easiest.

 

It's a good idea, though.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, Zonie said:

I'd have to look a the console schematics to answer the first part. As for the matrix, sure, you could probably create a matrix with resistor values (what I think you are getting at here) and the code could probably read it, but too much variation from different quality components, voltage drop on the cables, solder issues, etc, that it may be more trouble than it is worth.

That's exactly what I was suggesting   Point taken re: variation, but 5200 controllers managed to do it at about a 6' distance.  Not saying these things wouldn't be issues to watch out for, but it seems like a possibility, at least.

1 hour ago, Zonie said:

I really think keeping to the "standard" types of connections to the existing inputs (pots on pot lines, switches on digital lines) is probably best and easiest.

Which is fine - pots can stay where they'd normally be.  But that leaves a number of pins that could be used for (essentially) multiplexing other controls, if it's feasible to do so.

1 hour ago, Zonie said:

It's a good idea, though.

Thanks - just trying to come up with an idea whereby basic controller compatibility can be maintained across the board, while still allowing for extended controls where needed.

[Zonie]

I looked at a 2600 and 7800 schematics (hand drawn, lol) and the Digital IO for the joystick go to PA0-PA7 on the RIOT, The fire buttons through the hex buffer to the TIA and the Analog to through current limiting resistors to P0-P3 on the TIA. The TIA can and does use them as psudo-digital inputs but the Riot cannot use its inputs as analog. This doesn't affect your concept at all as they can all and are all used in the matrix controllers (KB/VTP/KC) and the 7800 actions...

I've been looking at both making the spinner with "stuff" and using an encoder, but encoders are not exactly cheap cheap... It'll be a while before I get anything concrete, but I've begun working out the details of the actual controller itself based on some stuff I came up with in the past.

 

I've read through the threads with CPUWIZ's DS converter, and that is the shiznit. A lot of good work went into that. I get why he stopped, some shit went down here in the past that really soured some of these guys from making cool stuff, but hopefully all that negativity remains behind us...

[CPUWIZ]

4 hours ago, Zonie said:

I've read through the threads with CPUWIZ's DS converter, and that is the shiznit. A lot of good work went into that. I get why he stopped, some shit went down here in the past that really soured some of these guys from making cool stuff, but hopefully all that negativity remains behind us...

 

Oh, I finished it, just never made any and thanks.   I'll dig up the final prototype, with 3D printed enclosure in a bit.

 

Yes.

 

Back to the age old question about ultimate controls, I have had some time, with a pen and the back of an envelope, I think I can solve this in another way!  More on the weekend about that.  Going to ping the gang about it first.

[CPUWIZ]

Ahh, memories. LOL

 

 

[CPUWIZ]

Oh yeah, I don't remember if I ever mentioned it, but this thing also reads the PS controller ID and sends data accordingly.  I even have the PS mouse supported, it outputs 2 buttons and 2 x 4bit mouse deltas (little CPU cycles needed).  But, no software supports this sort of data input.   That part was a waste of time, but I did it because I could.  It's also why you don't see DS2 mentioned on the box, I've tried all sorts of controllers and found some strange ID's (several I added) while I was at it.  I wonder if a GunCon could be made to work, for systems with Video out?  Hmm.

 

Whatever, I have a better idea. ?

 

 

[Zonie]

Now we're cookin with gas!

[doubledown]

@CPUWIZ, does your adapter allow for the use of the analog thumb-sticks...and if so, as truly analog (presumably simulating paddles)?  Because if so, someone could "simply" hack the existing 7800 port of Food Fight to make use of one of them, to produce an arcade port that would match the analog joystick control that the arcade game had. 

 

It still blows me away that ATARI never released Food Fight for the 5200...the one console they released...with analog joysticks.  A missed opportunity to say the least!  

[+MrZarniwoop]

11 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

Ahh, memories. LOL

 

 

Amazing.

 

Does it convert analog joystick positioning into DB9 joystick directions? Clever if it does.

[Shawn]

5 hours ago, Zonie said:

Now we're cookin with gas!

 

Ya but that is him doing it all on his own and nothing to do with you. I thought you where the one doing something here? I'm not saying that in any sort of negative way either, at all. I'm being sincere and left wondering what you have on the table here but an ask for a controller that is more and games for it that don't exist without any premise but it would be cool if they did?  

[Swami]

12 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

Oh yeah, I don't remember if I ever mentioned it, but this thing also reads the PS controller ID and sends data accordingly.  I even have the PS mouse supported, it outputs 2 buttons and 2 x 4bit mouse deltas (little CPU cycles needed).  But, no software supports this sort of data input.   That part was a waste of time, but I did it because I could.  It's also why you don't see DS2 mentioned on the box, I've tried all sorts of controllers and found some strange ID's (several I added) while I was at it.  I wonder if a GunCon could be made to work, for systems with Video out?  Hmm.

 

Whatever, I have a better idea. ?

 

 

This English guy made a similar adapter he was selling on eBay, though with less stuff, that supported the PS mouse. I used it to play on the Atari 2600 in C64 1350 mouse games like defender and in mouse mode the trak-ball hacks of 2600 games.

 

I was working with him on making a ColecoVision 4-button DS2 adapter, but he kept avoiding my questions and half way through he kept saying he was going to make a 2-player DS2 Amiga adapter and when I said I didn't want that he quit responding to me. Kind of a weird experience since I was going to pay him to make it but he never gave me a price.

[CPUWIZ]

3 hours ago, MrZarniwoop said:

Amazing.

 

Does it convert analog joystick positioning into DB9 joystick directions? Clever if it does.

 

Yes, Robotron is one of the configs.

[Jinks]

I do not think players will ever conform to any controller collectively.

Some guys will only use a painline for example. To make games that NEED these fancy controllers cuts out almost everyone from enjoying them. 

 

But then again.. how many people buy light gun games(with a box of course) and have their classic system hooked  up to a LCD? So there may be a market. Lol 

 

To make controllers to add to the experience and give a ton of options makes sense such as the DS module. 

[+MrZarniwoop]

1 hour ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

Yes, Robotron is one of the configs.

Wow. I'd certainly buy it if you ever make more, if only for Robotron.

[CPUWIZ]

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

Now we're cookin with gas!

 

Yeah, 6 years ago, gas only lasts until you get tired of paying for it. ?  Probably 2-3 homebrews worth of ASM code excluded.

 

You need to do something like that, forget everyone else (it's impossible to please everyone, as you can see just by my threads about the DS2 adapter.), make something and present it.  It either works or it doesn't, like the Sony adapter.

 

[Zonie]

7 hours ago, Shawn said:

 

Ya but that is him doing it all on his own and nothing to do with you. I thought you where the one doing something here? I'm not saying that in any sort of negative way either, at all. I'm being sincere and left wondering what you have on the table here but an ask for a controller that is more and games for it that don't exist without any premise but it would be cool if they did?  

You have no concept of what I'm trying to do. I mean really, who made you the upgrade police anyway. Sincere? No.

 

I don't expect to make some new standard and controller and thrust it upon others. Sure I could build it and I'd be a fool. I'm trying to start a productive dialogue between users, programmers, and hardware engineers.  We may come up with an agreement to do things a certain way, and then we all benefit. My suggestions are a starting point from my perspective. Others have also chimed in. If CPUWIZ hadn't been dissuaded in the past, just imagine what the last 7 years would have given us. Maybe nothing different, maybe some amazing new stuff. At the very least, an adapter that people could program a Sony PS controller to work for them on 7800 games. That's a win in my book. What have you given the community other than negativity?

 

Yeah, he did make that without me. But then assholes like you pissed him off and he gave it up. Now I come along and try to get some folks interested in getting together doing something that maybe we can all agree on, and he chimes in with an amazing thing that nearly saw the light of day, except he said fuck it, people don't deserve it. He's right, when people sit back and bitch and moan but then don't try to help and just complain that it doesn't meet their desires or they want it now and can't wait for it to be ready...

 

Maybe, just maybe this discussion has rekindled a desire to make the adapter, then here you come saying nobody wants it. We get it. You don't want it. Move along.

 

You act like a troll. I said it before. If you don't like what people are trying to do to make something cool, then scroll by and ignore it.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Zonie

[CPUWIZ]

Just leave it be guys, like I said, you can't please everyone.  Not the end of the world, no need to get into a pissing match and mostly a waste of time.  Grab some SPAM envelopes you got in the mail and a pen, dream up diagrams, then get into a pissing match about whose diagrams have a bigger penis drawn in them.

 

Or complain, that you didn't get enough SPAM in the mail, so you couldn't finish the diagrams.

 

Like I said, I have a better idea, so there!

[CPUWIZ]

23 minutes ago, Zonie said:

Yeah, he did make that without me. But then assholes like you pissed him off and he gave it up.

 

That is actually further from the truth, than anyone knows, since he was helping me test out assembly of them.  And also was part of the development process, in terms of functionality design.