ilmenit Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) @clth - my playthrough of the demo, so far part 1. - The game is great! Very much like Dungeon Master, I love the atmosphere. - After a while the control of UI isn't bad, bad definitely there is big space for improvement. Small proposal to improve - in TAB screen give ability to "wrap" moving left and right (between STAT and GAME). - Just as in Dungeon Master items have no stats ? You do not know if it's better to replace Club with Dagger. If you do not want to add it, then maybe showing in the console damage done to the enemy to estimate which one is better? This still wouldn't help with defense e.g. to estimate which shield is better. - Auto-mapping works strange. Sometimes it adds a field in front of you to the map, sometimes only the one you are standing on. Would be good to always add one in front, because you can miss e.g. some corridor or door. - I had issue with the copper key. Wasn't sure how to use it, when the first met locked door did not open with found key. A message like "no proper key" instead of "locked" would be good (pointing that you tried to use key but you had no proper one). I was running around to find a proper key hole for a while (especially considering issues with the auto-mapping). - Nice boss fight with the Spider Queen - Columns are nice touch. - Considering font limits, graphics is great! You did great job with all the elements! - Sounds are OK - That's all so far, definitely will play the demo further! Edited February 11, 2021 by ilmenit 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocianu Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 47 minutes ago, ilmenit said: - Just as in Dungeon Master items have no stats ? You do not know if it's better to replace Club with Dagger. If you do not want to add it, then maybe showing in the console damage done to the enemy to estimate which one is better? This still wouldn't help with defense e.g. to estimate which shield is better. You can always check your stats after wielding new weapon/armor, it shows how it inflicts your damage/defence, but - right - it's not very convenient. The spider queen is not your last boss fight And yes, graphics is great 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: - After a while the control of UI isn't bad, bad definitely there is big space for improvement. Small proposal to improve - in TAB screen give ability to "wrap" moving left and right (between STAT and GAME). Definitely, i've spent too much time playing it like this that some details are missed easily. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: - Just as in Dungeon Master items have no stats ? You do not know if it's better to replace Club with Dagger. If you do not want to add it, then maybe showing in the console damage done to the enemy to estimate which one is better? This still wouldn't help with defense e.g. to estimate which shield is better. Weapon/Armor stats can be "estimated" by looking at numbers on STAT screen. Also this is more like philosphical question if have game more exact, number crunching or bit more vague and old fashioned. Anyway adding EXAMINE to item menu for showing item details is good idea. Another thing is logging fight progress. Console got only 4 rows and logging message of hit amount or if enemy missed when attacking would be too frequent to be useful but more verbose apporach is worth considering for sure. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: - Auto-mapping works strange. Sometimes it adds a field in front of you to the map, sometimes only the one you are standing on. Would be good to always add one in front, because you can miss e.g. some corridor or door. That's typical case on uncle Scrooge approach To save ram, especially with more floors is automap stored for every 2x2 area which makes it 1/4 of original 128 bytes needed to store it. I will probably separate final game into several independent 3-4 floor episode each to avoid such tricks. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: - I had issue with the copper key. Wasn't sure how to use it, when the first met locked door did not open with found key. A message like "no proper key" instead of "locked" would be good (pointing that you tried to use key but you had no proper one). I was running around to find a proper key hole for a while (especially considering issues with the auto-mapping). That relates to another philisophical approach questions and also relates to item stats. I would like to avoid as possible todays very dead-on approach when is player told what to do exactly "this door needs ivory key with dragon shaped rune on it" and leave in bit of mystery and need of experimentation. Also doors can be set to optionally consume keys so inventory doesnt get overloaded with heap of keys but with this environment doesnt feel "organic" with live enemies waiting locked somewhere just for you to be killed. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: - Nice boss fight with the Spider Queen - Columns are nice touch. - Considering font limits, graphics is great! You did great job with all the elements! And you marched on her in very brave way I wouldn't dare to stand close to her for so long because of RNG nature Columns are another thing - for example DM felt very static and empty and I wanted to spice it a bit so there is heap of rubble or column. Also other objects are planned to interact with, there are three slots which can be used for enemies(maybe even friendly NPCs) or "deluxe" game objects to interact with. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: - Sounds are OK I think so too, especially when i was making them it was 100% trial & error really not knowing what i am doing at all BIG thanks for such detailed feedback and also for making the video. I do really appreciate that! Edited February 11, 2021 by clth missing words 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) Thanks! The problem with the key wasn't really with finding the right door, but more with the user interface. I did not know how to open the door having the key - it didn't work when I hit space bar, it didn't work from the Inventory screen, having the key or not the message was "Locked". In other words, the problem related to user interface of how to perform actions. Having Space Bar not working, I thought I need to use it somehow from the inventory, like you use all the other items. To resolve this issue in the full game I'd propose to add some "transparent in-game tutorial" by having 1 locked door to go through and a key to open it. Do you want to keep the RAM constrains as you have now to support lower-end machines? For XL/XE there is a way of disabling OS ROM and freeing the space for CC65 and turning it on dynamically before doing OS call. In the code it could be almost transparently handled by https://cc65.github.io/doc/cc65.html#ss7.18 As for the fighting and standing still - I'm missing "strafe keys" for standard "dancing around monster" tactic from other games, turning around takes quite a lot of time for such technique. One more point - in the TAB screens it would be good to have both RETURN and SPACE keys working (SPACE is to operate out of the TAB screens and I was often pressing it instead of RETURN). Edited February 11, 2021 by ilmenit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matosimi Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 It is nice, i remember trying some early versions that had no STAT screen. some suggestions: 1. space, return, tab - too confusing, it would be nice to simplify 2. I would suggest joystick controls. You can assign 2 actions to single joystick button.. so the short click could do attack/use..and long click (hold) could switch between game/stat. (In His Dark Majesty, long click caused next game round). Of course this would require some indicator (progress bar) that fills up when you hold fire. I used long click in my Roxblox to reset the round. 3. Am I correct that RETURN key causes attack? I was not even able to kill first spider, tried 3 times (on 4th try I killed him). If I understand well CLUB has some reload time, so I have to wait until I can use it again (it would be nice to replace "inverse" reload indicator with progress bar). It would be also nice to see how many health points each of my attacks took. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I'd also propose to consider joystick controls. @matosimi has good idea about "long press" it works surprisingly well (2.5-3 sec) when joystick has no two different fire buttons. In "His Dark Majesty" I used it contextually - either for "undo action" or "finish turn". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: Thanks! The problem with the key wasn't really with finding the right door, but more with the user interface. I did not know how to open the door having the key - it didn't work when I hit space bar, it didn't work from the Inventory screen, having the key or not the message was "Locked". In other words, the problem related to user interface of how to perform actions. Having Space Bar not working, I thought I need to use it somehow from the inventory, like you use all the other items. To resolve this issue in the full game I'd propose to add some "transparent in-game tutorial" by having 1 locked door to go through and a key to open it. You are right, UI and its feedback towards player needs improved. Tutorial in final game is essential. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: Do you want to keep the RAM constrains as you have now to support lower-end machines? For XL/XE there is a way of disabling OS ROM and freeing the space for CC65 and turning it on dynamically before doing OS call. In the code it could be almost transparently handled by https://cc65.github.io/doc/cc65.html#ss7.18 Yes, i want it like this if possible. XL/XE machines are very helpful in this, I do plan to use extra memory for ramdisk, music and maybe sprite masks to reduce blockiness. After some recent findings in my code, it seems pretty doable to have almost fully featured version for 48K systems. Also there is still quite some pretty suboptimal code and planned C code ZP optimizer will make things better I believe. 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: As for the fighting and standing still - I'm missing "strafe keys" for standard "dancing around monster" tactic from other games, turning around takes quite a lot of time for such technique. It its on the list, ven in current controls state enemies while being quite slow can be easily outrun even it is not very comfortable 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: One more point - in the TAB screens it would be good to have both RETURN and SPACE keys working (SPACE is to operate out of the TAB screens and I was often pressing it instead of RETURN). Yes, in inventory can be SPACE and RETURN be completely interchangeable, makes complete sense. In game it is bit more complicated. You may want to cast passive spell staying in front of lever for example. Have to try some other ways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariSkyDiver Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Can this be downloaded to the Atari VCS I just got? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 37 minutes ago, matosimi said: 2. I would suggest joystick controls. You can assign 2 actions to single joystick button.. so the short click could do attack/use..and long click (hold) could switch between game/stat. (In His Dark Majesty, long click caused next game round). Of course this would require some indicator (progress bar) that fills up when you hold fire. I used long click in my Roxblox to reset the round. Well, His Dark Majesty is turn based, also Roxblox doesnt look like being time critical. Such long hold would probably hinder the game flow action realtime fight, especially with stronger opponent it could be last thing you do Still some utilization of joystick sounds interesting, just needs to be fitting game genre. 37 minutes ago, matosimi said: 3. Am I correct that RETURN key causes attack? I was not even able to kill first spider, tried 3 times (on 4th try I killed him). If I understand well CLUB has some reload time, so I have to wait until I can use it again (it would be nice to replace "inverse" reload indicator with progress bar). It would be also nice to see how many health points each of my attacks took. Yes, thing is that RNG can be very funny guy and just not let you score a hit while enemy does three in row which can be especially on start of game deadly. I need to rethink battle math to less rely on randomness. Info about hit amount is possible, just need think of way doing it in unintrusive way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 6 hours ago, AtariSkyDiver said: Can this be downloaded to the Atari VCS I just got? I dont know much about VCS but it doesnt seem to support .atr files by default. However after installing some linux based Atari emulator like atari800 on device you might be able to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible kid Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 13 minutes ago, clth said: I dont know much about VCS but it doesnt seem to support .atr files by default. However after installing some linux based Atari emulator like atari800 on device you might be able to do so. Yes, works fine on atari800 emulator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, AtariSkyDiver said: Can this be downloaded to the Atari VCS I just got? atari vcs 800? it's actually pretty decent, just add keyboard and mouse, you can increase memory and storage if you want. Linux by default but you can multiboot it or use OS on a stick. I'd put Altirra on it if I were you... any which OS you choose, then you can emulate an 800 incognito in a Atari VCS 800. Good stuff! Put all your .atr's on it and your Atari VCS 800 will be both just like it is labeled There are other 8 bit emulators but Phaerons' is my go to. Edited February 11, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globe Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Thanks for the demo, it was awesome! Will wait for the full game with bated breath. If possible, could you make player's arrow in map screen blink? It was easy to find in the beginning but once the mapped area got large, sometimes I got 'lost' while using ladders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 12 minutes ago, globe said: Thanks for the demo, it was awesome! Will wait for the full game with bated breath. If possible, could you make player's arrow in map screen blink? It was easy to find in the beginning but once the mapped area got large, sometimes I got 'lost' while using ladders. I am glad you enjoyed it Blinking map cursor was one of "nice to have" features I planned to do but it didnt make it to the demo. Final version is going to have it or something like this. Spent quite some time on this release and wanted to just have it out instead of infinite flow of features creeping in. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Im a keyboard guy and got used to the current layout, but I agree with most others something needs to be done about picking stuff up. I think hot keys to the various screens offered through the TAB key would be good, but keep the TAB screen. I can hit 'M' to get to the MAP screen, but from there should be able to navigate to the other tab's. If given a choice I think I would stick to the keyboard vs using a joystick. With the various keyboard actions needed Id rather not go back and forth - just my $0.02 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Why not just have the letter P be for picking up something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Just finished the game and I really enjoyed it! One more note about the controls - key is used automatically with Space in the main view (the proper one), however for the Pick Axe and Orb you have to use it from the Inventory screen. The best if this could be consistent. Also seems that not all rock can be shattered with the Pick Axe (not sure if a bug or a feature). Does rock have some hit points to lower before it breaks and I should have tried more times? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 12, 2021 Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, ilmenit said: Just finished the game and I really enjoyed it! Lovely to hear. Had my doubts initially if it will be actually any fun for others but it isnt that bad it seems 15 minutes ago, ilmenit said: One more note about the controls - key is used automatically with Space in the main view (the proper one), however for the Pick Axe and Orb you have to use it from the Inventory screen. The best if this could be consistent. You are right, I guess it would be better to have it in some unified way. 19 minutes ago, ilmenit said: Also seems that not all rock can be shattered with the Pick Axe (not sure if a bug or a feature). Does rock have some hit points to lower before it breaks and I should have tried more times? No, thats intentional Same as with magic barrier, most of them are not affected by Orb. Player have to figure out which one can be removed. Just wondering - did anyone found Long Sword? ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 I found the Long Sword behind some illusion wall, probably I randomly stepped into the direction of that wall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocianu Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 I did not. So I need to play again thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globe Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Is the skull usable for something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clth Posted February 12, 2021 Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, globe said: Is the skull usable for something? Locked room and only skull in it? Usable to annoy player I guess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 I like this, so many games and movies only give stuff that is pertinent to the story... that's how to guess/figure out everything in a movie making for boredom. The family wonders how I knew it or ponders why I go off to do something else at a certain point. I like having stuff that doesn't need to be used for advancement and that all rocks don't break... sometimes they need to be blasted! a pick axe just won't do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Sure, however switching to inventory, finding a pick axe on a long list, selecting it, pressing Use, only to find out that this rock is not breakable is a bit annoying. I think there were some items hidden in the breakable ones so as player not knowing how to progress I was spending very boring time trying to break all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) Hmmm yeah, I personally don't attempt to break every boulder I see. That could be boring. So I don't do that. Sometimes games mirror parts of real life. That's cool in my book Everywhere you dig, can't be treasure. Archeology is an exact science Edited February 12, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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