emkay Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, Level42 said: It's not only the speed increase with NTSC by the way. Many older games only produce the correct colors on NTSC (Pac Man f.i.), but there's also 60Hz which greatly reduces flicker (let's say it eliminates it) and you get the correct aspect ratio as it was intended by the A8 developers. People always blame that there are no NTSC versions available , if the games were better balanced for PAL. So "PAL" coders start to change things for NTSC Systems, dropping PAL optimizations... But not even one game has been changed to run better on PAL machines, if they were created for NTSC first. We know there has never been a real PAL Atari, but there are benefits in the PAL mixing, and the faster resulting CPU speed caused by less cycle stealing of ANTIC. Did you ever see a game that used the A8 optimized to PAL this way: Interleaved Mode D / Mode E plus a double speed music engine ? This solves the "Aspect Ratio" and the music replay could do more precise instruments. Still leaving a lot CPU for fast calculations, and/or screen handling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 author of the game wrote on AtariOnline that an updated version will come with improved controls and better NTSC check. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikor Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 I red on atarionline, that ksi, author this game look at his code and his will try make full NTSC version too. 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 14 minutes ago, Sikor said: I red on atarionline, that ksi, author this game look at his code and his will try make full NTSC version too. BRAVO ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 8 hours ago, emkay said: People always blame that there are no NTSC versions available , if the games were better balanced for PAL. So "PAL" coders start to change things for NTSC Systems, dropping PAL optimizations... But not even one game has been changed to run better on PAL machines, if they were created for NTSC first. We know there has never been a real PAL Atari, but there are benefits in the PAL mixing, and the faster resulting CPU speed caused by less cycle stealing of ANTIC. Did you ever see a game that used the A8 optimized to PAL this way: Interleaved Mode D / Mode E plus a double speed music engine ? This solves the "Aspect Ratio" and the music replay could do more precise instruments. Still leaving a lot CPU for fast calculations, and/or screen handling. Some of the early NTSC artifacted games were later released for XEGS with the colours correctly rendered but yeah, I've never seen an NTSC games modified to run in PAL at the same speed as NTSC or speed up the music over a dirge etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Sikor said: I red on atarionline, that ksi, author this game look at his code and his will try make full NTSC version too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, emkay said: People always blame that there are no NTSC versions available , if the games were better balanced for PAL. So "PAL" coders start to change things for NTSC Systems, dropping PAL optimizations... But not even one game has been changed to run better on PAL machines, if they were created for NTSC first. We know there has never been a real PAL Atari, but there are benefits in the PAL mixing, and the faster resulting CPU speed caused by less cycle stealing of ANTIC. Did you ever see a game that used the A8 optimized to PAL this way: Interleaved Mode D / Mode E plus a double speed music engine ? This solves the "Aspect Ratio" and the music replay could do more precise instruments. Still leaving a lot CPU for fast calculations, and/or screen handling. Understandably, but try not looking at it, that way. A pretty large A/8bit audience resides on the NTSC side of the equation, as well as having (most likely) the LARGEST retro-hardware market (just look at eBay's offerings and variety of A8 HW and notice where it comes from). On the other hand, there is no doubt that PAL offers higher SPATIAL resolution and deterministic color-decode (in general)... whereas NTSC offers higher TEMPORAL resolution (which has a clearly visible effect), as well as more flexibility in handling color reproduction, including artifacting, which several titles (including Flight Simulator) make good use of. In other words, it is WORTH adapting these titles (or at least, having the courtesy of enabling or disabling music0 for NTSC execution. Edited February 16, 2021 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Beautiful. Imagine this in 80s on XEGS. I think today we play Atari Switch... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 39 minutes ago, Matej said: Beautiful. Imagine this in 80s on XEGS. I think today we play Atari Switch... Exactly. One of Atari's problems was there were few 8-bit games this pretty or colorful back then. I'm still staring at the video and screenshots trying to figure out how they seemingly got so many colors on a single scanline 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, zzip said: Exactly. One of Atari's problems was there were few 8-bit games this pretty or colorful back then. I'm still staring at the video and screenshots trying to figure out how they seemingly got so many colors on a single scanline It's technically no miracle, but it may have needed a lot time to code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, emkay said: It's technically no miracle, but it may have needed a lot time to code. Obviously there were DLIs used, and the player character looks like it is made up of multiple P/Ms. But I still see color placement that defies what I know about the hardware. Maybe not a miracle, but if these tricks were more common knowledge back then, we'd have had better looking games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, zzip said: Obviously there were DLIs used, and the player character looks like it is made up of multiple P/Ms. But I still see color placement that defies what I know about the hardware. Maybe not a miracle, but if these tricks were more common knowledge back then, we'd have had better looking games. But there are strong limits. It's really nice to see at least one game playing with all the colors on the screen. For now it's the only game for the Atari that is using most possible colors to enhance the visuals. But it doesn't mean that some "Turrican" like game could evolve from it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Adam+ Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Sikor said: I red on atarionline, that ksi, author this game look at his code and his will try make full NTSC version too. Sikor, I don't see such declaration there. Like Ilmenit wrote just before your post, Kski (the coder) declared improved controls and better NTSC check. And in his latest comment (so far), Kski wrote that he would have to get rid of music, some Albert colours and ladders to make it work in NTSC - or make other changes that would make Albert a different game. Edited February 16, 2021 by +Adam+ redundant word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) he wouldn't have to get rid of colors and the music could be lightened not removed, and if he where to drop empty scanlines at the top and bottom areas him might not need to do that... just pick NTSC colors and make vbi either not so big or deferred- all that other stuff should still be fine... it already works on NTSC before removing colors, maybe people could hack some slight pallette number adjustments in to show him? maybe someone speaking his language could explain approaches. Edited February 16, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, emkay said: It's really nice to see at least one game playing with all the colors on the screen. ? Edited February 16, 2021 by Irgendwer 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 For those that want to put Albert onto a 90k disk, here is a version a) without PAL check, b) packed with Flashpack 2.1 (titlescreen; depacking the titlescreen with Exomizer took much too long!) and c) packed with Exomizer (main program). I also added a Basic-off routine and a small text title that says "Loading" but which can be replaced with any other text (e.g. "Albert") easily... Albert_packed.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Irgendwer said: ? Wowww... that one is sweet... don't recall ever seeing it... What is its name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, Faicuai said: Wowww... that one is sweet... don't recall ever seeing it... What is its name? Cygnus X I think - I only recently heard of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 24 minutes ago, Stephen said: Cygnus X I think - I only recently heard of it. "Cygnus XI" or "Cygnus X1" produced by Atari UK (one title printed on the tape cover, the other printed on the title screen). The game has colourfull background gfx, alas, the gameplay is more or less the same as SEGA's "Buck Rogers". http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-cygnus-x1_1472.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, Stephen said: Cygnus X I think - I only recently heard of it. Thx!!! Yesss, it is in Fandal's site... originally produced in TAPE format (!) The game-play is a bit blocky, lacks fluidity, but the elements reminds me of Stealth (although the latter is, indeed, very fluid and colorful)... Cygnus' large "planetary" background is best seen on analog Composite, or where color-blending is performed by video-processor or the screen itself (at least in NTSC). Looks a bit dull in a-Video or DVI-d outputs... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 (edited) I've known of Cygnus X1 since I got my first Atari UK pirated software in the 90's. Though I always thought it was more of a rip-off of Sega's Buck Rogers than Stealth. I enjoy a game of it occasionally, just because it's so unique to have background graphics in APAC mode. But it was always a bit dull looking due to the alternating color and grey-scale "scan lines." That washed-out color has been just a distant memory ever since I did the SV 2.1 video upgrade, 1200XL edition, with the fixed chroma boost circuit. And, of course, interlaced or RGB rapid page-flipping 256 and 4096 color modes and all standard graphics are much more vibrant. I'm still waiting on a replacement Sophia 2 to see it's RGB and DVI color facilities in person on my 800. Edited February 17, 2021 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Most of us have 2 or 3 ataris(or more). Why not set one up as Pal? Then you can enjoy pal software the way the author meant it, instead of some neutred down creation. Or, just play it on Altirra. If someone enjoys the challenge of changing it to ntsc that's one thing, demanding the author build it your way is absurd. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 (edited) no one is demanding or threatening... buck up buttercup... I haven't met anyone upset to make something NTSC, unless they're just wore out from whatever they were doing and don't want to revisit it. Stop gaps may be done until they get around to doing a proper job. An if they don't someone gets around to it eventually.. Edited February 17, 2021 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, chevymad said: Most of us have 2 or 3 ataris(or more). Why not set one up as Pal? Then you can enjoy pal software the way the author meant it, instead of some neutred down creation. Or, just play it on Altirra. If someone enjoys the challenge of changing it to ntsc that's one thing, demanding the author build it your way is absurd. Well, that's why I put a PAL Antic in my 130XE. Maybe that is not the most best way, but it usually works for me. Do I need to buy a PAL 130XE and have it shipped overseas now with all the problems the carriers are having? I hope not lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: no one is demanding or threatening... buck up buttercup... I haven't met anyone upset to make something NTSC, unless they're just wore out from whatever they were doing and don't want to revisit it. Stop gaps may be done until they get around to doing a proper job. An if they don't someone gets around to it eventually.. This sounds like you are demanding a total rewrite to me.. do some stop gaps until you have time to do a proper job. Maybe he wants to, maybe not. Instead you could fire up Altirra and play it the way he meant it, and aren't you also saying the author should either use Altirra or have an ntsc machine? It may just be the way your comments come through via text, and if so sorry. But this all sounds a whole lot like the stuff that happens in the hardware threads. Starting to wonder why anyone creates anything for the atari. I'm still very glad they do though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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