Jump to content
IGNORED

UK Customers can't be sent games by Atariage anymore / European maybe next


JaggingUK

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, 82-T/A said:

Just being honest with you... there is no way I'm providing all of that information to a foreign government just so you can sell some stuff overseas.

I may be a special case: My wife is British, so when we applied for our kids' British passports, they got all this stuff from me anyway. I'm the only one in my family without dual citizenship.

4 hours ago, Albert said:

I do have a question -- what are the requirements when someone purchases something from you in terms of what you need to display either after the purchase is complete and/or on a receipt/packing list in terms of VAT?

I have some idea, but I'll wait until I actually go through the process once before posting to avoid misinformation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cubanismo said:

I may be a special case: My wife is British, so when we applied for our kids' British passports, they got all this stuff from me anyway.

 

This is actually something I've been wondering about in relation to Brexit.

 

As a dual Irish / US citizen, I have access to both the EU and UK under their respective agreements with the Republic of Ireland regarding residency, employment, etc. as well as the US for the same purposes.  This means that the Northern Ireland backstop is pretty much open to me.

 

Conceivably, items destined for the UK could be shipped to Dublin (or, better, Dundalk), driven up to Belfast, and re-sent to wherever they're headed to in Britain.  As long as the scale is relatively small, I doubt it would attract any real attention and would skirt nicely around HMRC's ridiculous VAT requirements.  Obviously it would make items more expensive than if they were being shipped directly, but I suspect it could be done on more favourable terms than bringing them straight into the UK at this time.

 

Group orders would be key to making this work.  It's not financially viable to do this for one-offs.

 

Quote

I'm the only one in my family without dual citizenship.

I have some idea, but I'll wait until I actually go through the process once before posting to avoid misinformation.

 

I am following what you have to say about that process fairly closely.  It's something that I may end up having to engage in, but for different reasons.

Edited by x=usr(1536)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Conceivably, items destined for the UK could be shipped to Dublin (or, better, Dundalk), driven up to Belfast, and re-sent to wherever they're headed to in Britain.

I can't begin to comprehend the Ireland+Brexit situation, but I can note there were many, many questions about whether I was based in Ireland, Northern Ireland, had agents in Ireland, etc. during the VAT application process.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, cubanismo said:

I can't begin to comprehend the Ireland+Brexit situation, but I can note there were many, many questions about whether I was based in Ireland, Northern Ireland, had agents in Ireland, etc. during the VAT application process.

 

Not surprising in the least.  I'm 99.999% certain they're looking for people exploiting the backstop as a way to circumvent VAT requirements.

 

Did the paperwork say anything about the Channel Islands or Isle of Man?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am really hoping that some trade deals get signed that put an end to this. I am likely to have to help a band I am friends with ship hundreds of records this year, about a third of them to the UK or to Europe, and this is going to be a huge pain for both us and the fans. The fans kickstarted a record a while ago and paid WAY over what the record will cost to help the band make it... what does THAT fall under in this paperwork? ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trade deals? I think we're discussing two different but related matters again.

 

1A. VAT collection directly from overseas sellers. As noted the UK already has implemented this with no obvious backdoor. As an US based business, you might not agree about giving away all your company and personal details to foreign authorities, which has been expressed a few times in this thread. For those parties you have the option to sell through eBay, Etsy, perhaps Amazon and instead pay their sales fees for handling the paperwork for you. Costs a little more, but you get to retain your privacy.

 

1B. VAT collection for the EU zone. This is similar to above, but will be implemented on July 1 and seems to actually have a backdoor in terms of the seller may choose to not collect VAT and leave it for the buyer to pay, just like in the old system. Whichever fees the buyer will have to pay on top of the actual VAT portion remains to be seen, and whether you as the seller will get flamed for giving the buyer the short stick. Again, going through a 3rd party sales place would handle this for you if you can take the sales fees.

 

2. The customs penalty for 142 different types of products from the USA. It applies to all EU countries and UK, not sure if rest of the EES countries tag along. The list is very specific and targeted at typical products that the USA wants to export. Video games is one of those export products. Airplanes are penalized by 15%, everything else by 25%. This is where a trade deal could take place, nullifying the customs penalty that affects your record (*) buyers and many else.

 

But yes, as a question for @cubanismo is if collecting of the customs penalty also is part of the paperwork, or if that only handles VAT collection and the customs fees are to be paid directly by the buyer anyway.

 

(*) Actually on second thought, I'm not sure that music records were part of the 142 types of items. There were some plastic materials listed but I don't know if records are categorized based on material or content. Thus there is a slight chance that you don't get 25% customs penalty, because the USA is not known to be a big exporter of music... :-D

Edited by carlsson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/15/2021 at 12:24 PM, Albert said:

No, I want to maintain control over production to make sure everything is consistent.  If I work with a distributor in the UK and/or EU, I would ship them finished games.  However, I would ship boxes flattened, to reduce shipping volume (since boxed games take a lot of space) as well as help prevent boxes from getting damaged. The boxed games could then be assembled at the destination.

 

 ..Al

That has been the best route for things like that, less a producer of goods but a straight vendor overseas. That seems to be the best bet for global price issues, vendor orders in bulk to save on shipping cost, then handles local shipping once it arrives. If anyone here wants to volunteer as an ambassador for that you'd help a lot of people in your region.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2021 at 9:28 AM, ls650 said:

Speaking for Canada, when packages are mailed in from overseas the import duties and taxes are often ignored.

I can't remember the last time I had to pay for a package I've received via Canada Post - several years, anyhow.

 

On the other hand, if someone in another country ships to me via any courier (UPS, Fedex, etc) these private companies love to make sure I pay - and they also make sure to charge a brokerage of $10-$15 on top of that!

I always urge sellers to ship to me with post and tracking, rather than a courier.

Oh that helps me some, still new at this, wasn't sure why I was paying additional fees sometimes but not always. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have sort of dipped in an out of this topic a bit as aside from the topic title which obviously is of interest, it is not the most interesting of topics and the wide range of views makes it difficult (at least for me) to follow. What I will say it this...

1) UK banks used to deduct tax on interest at source, then a couple of years ago that changed and the account holder became responsible for keeping track of their own interest earned and submitting a tax return if it came to more than £1000 (unlikely with the interest rates practically zero since the banking crisis). Maybe this has as much to do with bringing things in to line with that change to tax as Brexit.

2) Goods from the US have been subject to charges in the UK for many years, some times it seems you get away with avoiding them, possible depending what the item is, whether it is checked or listed as a "gift" on the declaration and other times you get charged.

3) I have noticed some sites including UK tax and import duties as an upfront cost to the buyer at the time of purchase, I can appreciate it may be a pain (particularly for a small business) to deal with but it is a big advantage to the customer as they can see exactly how much an item will cost. 

 

Item three can be important as the unexpected additional cost (which can be considerable) may affected the purchase decision if it had been know in advance, for example, around 20 years ago I purchased some nice to have but non essential stuff for my Autococker the price of which I considered a bit expensive for what it was but just on the limit of what I was willing to pay for it. When UPS knocked at the door and asked for an additional payment for VAT, import duties & their fee for dealing with those increased the cost by 50%, had I known what the full cost would have been at the outset I would not have made my purchase. 

Consequently, knowing the full (all inclusive) cost at the time of purchase is always useful to the purchaser, perhaps that knowledge is more relevant in these difficult times when finances may be tight for some and an unexpected additional fee could be difficult to absorb. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

while i agree that it'd great for the customer to know the total including any fee/tax his home country chooses to add to his order but it'd be quite a nightmare for the seller to manage such system for every country in the world and to track all the constant changes

i could be a minority but i believe it's my job to know the local rules, not the seller's (he most likely wouldn't even be able to find my country on the map and that's fine)

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jaguar homebrew games: Great music, almost zero playability? ;-)


Anyway, previously I compiled a somewhat shorthand list of the 142 categories, with disclaimer that I may have missed or misunderstood some of the codes.

 

 

Aquarium fish

Frozen and smoked salmon of various kinds
Frozen mussels (not scallops)
Various kinds of cheese including cheddar and cheese from sheep and buffalo
Sweet potatoes
Frozen nuts, peanuts and dates (not pecans or pine nuts)
Roasted hazel nuts
Some forms of grapefruit
Fine sliced grapefruit, oranges, lemons with or without sugar
Frozen orange and grapefruit juice
Blueberries and similar, both natural and sweetened
Vanilla, whole or grinded
Wheat (not durum or intended for seed)
Seaweed and other algae (not intended for food)
Plant juices, mucus, pectin, agar, thickener
Jojoba oil, oiticia oil, myrtle wax, Japanese vax, tobacco oil etc
Sugar cane molasses
Cocoa powder with/without sugar, cocoa butter, chocolate glacing, chocolate cookies
Filled chocolate candy with or without alcohol

Extract, essence and concentrated coffee
Tomato ketchup, tomato sauce, mustard, other sauces except for mango chutney
Soups and broth
Saturated sugar with sucros (not lactose, glucose or maltodextrin)
Vermouth max 18% alcohol
Liquor made from grapes, rum and other liquor from sugar canes, vodka
Waste from sugar production
Dried tobacco of various kinds, tobacco waste
Essential oils from citrus fruits and other sources
Albumines (starch, glue etc) not suitable for food
Concentrated milk proteins, other proteins, skin powder etc
Polyvinyl chloride intended to be used for airplanes etc
Polyethylene film (photoresist film for manufacturing of semiconductors) etc
Synthetic paper mass from polyethylene with or without cellulose
Suitcases, portfolios etc made from aluminum and other materials
Handbags of real or fake leather, bags with an exterior of plastic or textile
Wallets etc from plastic or textile
Hand made suitcases, toilet bags, backpacks and sports bags
Travel bags, toilet bags etc from plastic, cases for music instruments etc

Cotton, carded or combed
Loader with bucket intended for work below mark, band tractor loaders etc
Agricultural tractors, forest tractors

Frames and forks to road-borne vehicles and parts for those
Billiards games, coin driven gaming machines with screen etc, parts to those
Video game consoles and video game machines
Electric race cars of competition style etc
Gym equipment with adjustable systems for load

Note that these entries represent the actual codes, not just a few examples. It means that e.g. gaming cards like Pokémon, Magic the Gathering etc, books, magazines and so on should not get the 25% customs fees. Same goes for audio recordings and movies as far as I can tell, only video games specifically are listed but then the discussion remains if it only applies to hardware (the console itself, possibly controllers) or also on the games. Since there generally is only one catch-all customs code for anything that has to do with video games except for arcade, casino and pinball games, I suppose it would be hard to filter hardware from software. If there were several different codes just like every type of salmon or tobacco has its own code, it would be more clear.

Edited by carlsson
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/28/2021 at 1:35 AM, x=usr(1536) said:

Conceivably, items destined for the UK could be shipped to Dublin (or, better, Dundalk), driven up to Belfast, and re-sent to wherever they're headed to in Britain.  As long as the scale is relatively small, I doubt it would attract any real attention and would skirt nicely around HMRC's ridiculous VAT requirements.  Obviously it would make items more expensive than if they were being shipped directly, but I suspect it could be done on more favourable terms than bringing them straight into the UK at this time.

Short term that'd likely be fine, but the EU are due to bring in the same system mid-year I believe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, juansolo said:

Short term that'd likely be fine, but the EU are due to bring in the same system mid-year I believe.

Agreed.  It'll be interesting to see how long this lasts for the either the EU or UK; despite eBay et. al. having signed on as VAT collectors, there are a ton of businesses that haven't.  This may end up being one of those things where either compliance is too low for it to matter, the cost of administering it outweighs the benefits, or both.  One can hope that it all quietly goes away after that and is not replaced by something even more idiotic, but as we are talking about government here...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know how effective the incoming customs and post services are, if they are able to block or bounce packages from a sender which is not compliant. It could also turn out that the recipient has to pay the VAT plus double fees for the sender failing to collect it. Remember that it only applies to businesses, if you as a private person is selling something you don't have to collect VAT from the buyer, it will be a problem at their end. Perhaps that is where it will end up, businesses outside of the EU will be considered to be private individuals with whichever side effects it could have if those are reported by foreign authorities as such.

 

A lot of the focus in this discussion is on the seller/sender's perspective. Very little is on the buyer/recipient, and how they would react to extra fees due to the seller's inability to comply to regulations. It is said that it costs five times as much money to find a new customer compared to keeping an old one, but then again if you're offering a product that nobody else can offer, perhaps that rule of thumb does not apply as the customer would seek to buy from you as long as possible. Perhaps that is the silver lining to businesses selling homebrew games, mod kits and similar products, that they have something unique that nobody else legally can produce and sell. Even if your customer has to pay fees out of their ears, they will have to return to your business if they want to buy more. For other types of trades where there are far more comparable alternatives, whether it is food, clothes, vehicles etc, the same may not apply. Then again from an outsider's perspective, all video games look the same so perhaps the clothes collectors say the same thing, that a pair of jeans from the brand XYZ is not equivalent with a pair of jeans from the brand ABCDEF.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally speaking the recipients are charged a handling fee of £8 plus the duty, which seems mostly random. Usually it's based on the declared value inc postage if it seems realistic, otherwise they just seem to make it up. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, juansolo said:

Generally speaking the recipients are charged a handling fee of £8 plus the duty, which seems mostly random. Usually it's based on the declared value inc postage if it seems realistic, otherwise they just seem to make it up. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

 

This was exactly how it was (and presumably still is) done in Ireland.  Import duties and VAT were to be charged based on the Irish retail price of an item being imported.  If there was no equivalent on the Irish market, a number would be plucked out of nowhere and chosen as the retail value.  Even if there was an equivalent on the market, it would still happen sometimes and it was up to you as the recipient to prove that the valuation was wrong.

 

There were a couple of instances where, upon attempting to pay duty on an item, the valuation (and hence import duty) was absolutely insane.  My tactic was to say, 'keep it' and walk out.  Within a day or two I'd receive a more rational assessment.  This was far easier than arguing with a bureaucrat.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Following up, I eventually completed the UK VAT registration process and successfully shipped an item to the UK. There was no notification from HMRC that the application was completed/accepted, but luckily I logged in to my account to see if there were any more messages or questions one day, and sure enough I had a UK VAT certificate.

 

I did a bunch of research, trudging around the HMRC websites and Googling for explanations of things, and as far as I can tell, the only additional documentation you need to include when shipping an item to the UK is a VAT invoice. These have to have a few specific properties, but mostly it just means your invoices must all have sequential numbers, and they should list out the items you ship, the VAT rate charged for each item, the buyer's info, the seller's info, and it must include your VAT registration number. Paypal invoices (And probably invoices generated by any other reasonable system) have you covered for most of this. To get the VAT number to show up, I just listed "VAT Registration Number: ########" as the URL to my website in the PayPal invoice system.

 

The only other complicated part is figuring out the commodity code for what you're shipping, so you can include it in the usual customs forms you fill out for USPS/UPS/etc. shipments, but these are unified globally apparently, so you can look it up using any of various systems. The US and the UK both have one:

 

https://hts.usitc.gov

https://www.gov.uk/trade-tariff

 

The US one is pretty cool in that it will pull up references to prior disputes/inquiries given some keywords, so you if you have some obscure thing, you can see if anyone has already asked the US for help classifying it. I've not noted the details properly, but if you dig around, there's a section for something like "video gaming machines which accept cartridges" in there. I think this mostly matters if you are shipping an item to which tariffs beyond the regular VAT are applied (The UK website above has info on this for each commodity code), but I don't know. Try to find the right number and you should be good.

 

Once you have all that, you're good to go. If you ship via USPS for example, you fill out the same customs declaration form as you would for any other country, put the resulting papers AND your VAT invoice in the customs pouch on the package, and ship it. The only difference for me Vs. shipping to other non-US addresses was the VAT invoice, which I already had handy anyway from the invoicing process. Just had to print it.

 

I also now need to file returns with HMRC for every period (you get assigned a frequency/period length when registering. I've forgotten mine already, but you can sign up for email alerts, which I've done). This has to be done even if I've sold $0 in goods, so hopefully it isn't too involved. Same is true for state sales tax, at least in CA. The tricky part here may be actually remitting the VAT to the UK. You can use bank transfers for UK banks (equivalent of ACH in the US), and it claims you can pay by debit card as well. However, I of course do not have a UK bank account, so if it won't take my US debit card as payment, I may have to use an international wire transfer, which would likely cost much more than the tax itself. That would be annoying.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Another necro bump, is that I read a news story just a few days ago that the Boing & Airbus dispute between the US and EU is looking to be solved, so the 25% extra customs on the 142 types of goods from the US is about to get dropped. I don't know if it already happened, but otherwise it will happen very soon. This is relevant to AtariAge etc because video games was one of the types of goods that is typically American export and was penalized with extra customs until now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should follow up one last time as well: HMRC does not take US debit cards as payment, so to pay my 40£ tax bill, I had to find another option. Fortunately, I found wise.com works very well with very low (think PayPal-ish) fees to make it appear as if money coming from your US debit card is coming through as some European or U.K. interbank transfer. Saved me paying my bank's $35 flat-rate outgoing international wire transfer fee.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

I should follow up one last time as well: HMRC does not take US debit cards as payment, so to pay my 40£ tax bill, I had to find another option. Fortunately, I found wise.com works very well with very low (think PayPal-ish) fees to make it appear as if money coming from your US debit card is coming through as some European or U.K. interbank transfer. Saved me paying my bank's $35 flat-rate outgoing international wire transfer fee.

Thanks for your continued updates on this subject, as it's something I will need to pursue as soon as I'm caught up with orders.  I really want to be able to ship to the UK again!  And good to know about wise.com, thanks.  My bank charges $50 for outgoing international wire transfers, which is just ludicrous as it's just pushing bits around. 

 

 ..Al

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad it helps. One other detail: Filling out the gov.uk form to actually file the tax is trivial. You can sign up for email reminders as well. The form has about 6 boxes total that boil down to the value of VAT goods you sold, multiplying that value by 20% (and rounding to the nearest pound, lest it throw up some error that doesn't at all indicate that is the problem), then claiming your cost of goods so you can deduct the VAT you paid on those, if any (for people purchasing supplies from outside the UK, it probably doesn't much matter what you put here since you won't be getting reimbursed for any non-UK VAT/sales tax charges by the UK). If you did any business in Northern Ireland, 2 more similar boxes IIRC. Thankfully, I didn't.

  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...