Why still pre-order for VCS?

[Cebus Capucinis]

You should pre-order because it's already a hit, so it will sell out indefinitely after all the hungry Switch customers compare it to the Switch and decide it's clearly better.

 

REAL ANSWER: You should pre-order because it's incredibly unlikely to hit retail shelves at all. I suspect they can't produce the quantities they'd need, and they certainly don't have the cash flow to do so....

[Matt_B]

That tweet has drawn some interesting responses so far:

 

"$849.95????? What on earth!"

 

"Yep. I get the AUD/USD, and many Aussie retailers have the same price, but it's $399.99USD online! But still, that's absurd for basically a mini pc running atari emulators with a rather lack-luster game catalogue (most likely due to licensing)."

 

"stop the fomo pls"

 

"The Atari is just low power pc that you could buy for $70l and only thing that makes it special is the pc case and its not worth $800"

 

There is some excitement that Cris Tales is going up for pre-order though. ?

[Cebus Capucinis]

[youxia]

Actually 400USD is probably not so bad for this spec-level mini-PC at the moment, what with PC prices hailing from the la-la land in general. The problem is the wisdom of pre-ordering anything, for the same shortage-related reasons. No guarantee you'll see it anytime soon.

[Matt_B]

1 hour ago, youxia said:

Actually 400USD is probably not so bad for this spec-level mini-PC at the moment, what with PC prices hailing from the la-la land in general. The problem is the wisdom of pre-ordering anything, for the same shortage-related reasons. No guarantee you'll see it anytime soon.

Only the price of high-end gaming/crypto hardware is in la-la land.

 

You can still order a US$200 Dell/HP/Lenovo mini PC and have it inside a week, even in Australia.

[youxia]

13 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

You can still order a US$200 Dell/HP/Lenovo mini PC and have it inside a week

A new one? Got some examples?

 

I'm interested because I used to say the same, but that was before Covid.

[toiletunes]

3 hours ago, youxia said:

A new one? Got some examples?

 

I'm interested because I used to say the same, but that was before Covid.

Not Dell, but available in store- that's one up from Atari...

 

[Matt_B]

2 hours ago, youxia said:

A new one? Got some examples?

 

I'm interested because I used to say the same, but that was before Covid.

Have a browse here, you've dozens to choose from that are all available and - obvious things like Mac Minis and some of the high-end NUCs aside - mostly cheaper than the VCS:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/pc/13896591011

 

Which of them, if any, is right for you is another matter and really depends on what you intend to do with it. Certainly don't buy the FOMO though. The recent component shortages that have affected graphics cards and consoles have barely caused a ripple in the low-end PC market.

[Mockduck]

Should YOU pre-order one today if sometime during the past three years nothing compelled you to want to do it? Nope. Just wait for it to come out or not at retail and buy one then if you want. Unless you can find a decent at-or-below msrp on the used market. At this point you aren't going to be getting the console quickly, all the other preorderers are before you, and Atari either is or isn't (I think is) getting ready for a retail launch later this year. Initially I thought they'd still hit the Spring date, but seems like shipping issues at the very least make that unlikely. 

 

I do think Atari will get a big batch of preorders out in late April/mid May, but wide preorder fulfillment or retail release seems highly unlikely. 

[youxia]

4 hours ago, Matt_B said:

Which of them, if any, is right for you is another matter and really depends on what you intend to do with it. Certainly don't buy the FOMO though. The recent component shortages that have affected graphics cards and consoles have barely caused a ripple in the low-end PC market.

I'm not buying, simply curious about the market. Your link is just a big bunch of all kinds of machines. You'd have to find something matching the R1606G / Vega 3 to be more precise.

 

@toiletunesLaptops are not mini PCs. It does not matter that most likely me and you would buy one instead of a VCS/mini-PC, they are a different market and for the sake of the comparison don't really fit here.

[Matt_B]

2 hours ago, youxia said:

I'm not buying, simply curious about the market. Your link is just a big bunch of all kinds of machines. You'd have to find something matching the R1606G / Vega 3 to be more precise.

I'm not sure why anyone would specifically want an R1606G. It's a thoroughly unremarkable CPU that's basically the embedded equivalent of the Athlon 200GE.

 

Still, if you want a VCS beater specifically based on the Ryzen embedded platform, how about this one?

 

https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-gb-bsre-1605-brix/p/N82E16856164154

 

It's a quad core with Vega 8 for $279. You can also get a $229 version based on the R1505G which is  a dual core with Vega; very similar to the R1606G but with slightly lower clocks.

 

It's a barebones kit so you'll need to bring your own RAM, SSD and an operating system but you'll need the latter two for the VCS if you want to actually use it like a PC.

 

That's not to say that I'd actually recommend it. It's just an indicator that you don't need $300 worth of special sauce to make a computer out of a $100 CPU.

[youxia]

11 hours ago, Matt_B said:

I'm not sure why anyone would specifically want an R1606G. It's a thoroughly unremarkable CPU that's basically the embedded equivalent of the Athlon 200GE.

You don't need a powerhouse CPU to do simple tasks like emulation, desktop, or even lo-fi PC gaming. And if you want to compare stuff, you need to do it with similar-specs products (not necessarily Ryzen based though). VCS has R1606G/Vega3, so that's the point of reference.

 

11 hours ago, Matt_B said:

It's just an indicator that you don't need $300 worth of special sauce to make a computer out of a $100 CPU.

If you take that 229$ unit, then add RAM + worth of 2 controllers, you're getting much, much closer to the VCS's 400$. So, it's nowhere near "300USD worth of special sauce". More like less than 100$, which you can then ascribe to the dubious worth of Atari logo, "nice" woodgrain, etc. It's worthless to me (the brand perhaps even detrimental) but others might have different opinion.

 

EDIT: VCS actually has a 32GB SSD already, so that narrows the gap even further. You could in theory stick Windows on it, or Linux if need be.

 

Overall, it's not something I'd recommend getting, but these days more because of the fact that I don't want to support Atari SA, the silly Atari OS idea and so on, not because of pure tech specs. They're definitely not in the "absurd" zone compared to the competitors on price.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by youxia

[Matt_B]

AU$849 seems a pretty absurd price to me. US$399 is maybe less so, but it's still a lot to be paying when machines of similar spec can be had for around half the price.

 

Also, it's not an SSD, it's an eMMC. The latter is basically the same technology as SD cards and costs about $5 when purchased in bulk. It's much slower than SSD storage and typically has a much shorter lifetime too.

 

32GB is the minimum storage for Windows 10 since versions 1903. You might just about fit it on there, but you'd have no room for any additional software or even to download updates.

[CPUWIZ]

18 hours ago, youxia said:

Laptops are not mini PCs.

 

Take the board out, or break the screen off.

[youxia]

14 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

AU$849 seems a pretty absurd price to me. US$399 is maybe less so, but it's still a lot to be paying when machines of similar spec can be had for around half the price.

I've asked you to provide an example of a similar  machine that can be had for half the price. I still haven't seen one yet. Yes, AUD 849=649USD, and that's totally bonkers, but is it really the price, or the 399 USD?

 

23 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

Also, it's not an SSD, it's an eMMC. The latter is basically the same technology as SD cards and costs about $5 when purchased in bulk. It's much slower than SSD storage and typically has a much shorter lifetime too.

It doesn't really matter what it costs in bulk and it's still much faster than an IDE HDD. It's included in VCS and that's that.  My Win 10 directory takes 14 GB, Linux far less, and most people use extrnal storage for media anyway.

 

This is beside the point, anyway. I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here, since probably half of my "reputation" likes come from criticising VCS over the years. But I'm a bit of a pedant whan it comes to arguments, no matter which "side" they are on. And this one, that VCS is allegedly such an abysmal proposition when it comes to price vs performance vs added value, in its particular class, simply does not add up.

[Matt_B]

7 hours ago, youxia said:

I've asked you to provide an example of a similar  machine that can be had for half the price. I still haven't seen one yet. Yes, AUD 849=649USD, and that's totally bonkers, but is it really the price, or the 399 USD?

Yes, AU$849 really is the price for Australian customers:

https://www.ebgames.com.au/product/atari/244423-atari-vcs-800-black-walnut-all-in-one-bundle

 

It's official too, as they announced it last August:

https://press-start.com.au/news/pcmac/2020/08/14/the-atari-vcs-console-will-cost-699-849-in-australia/

 

There's also a AU$699 version without controllers. What a bargain, eh? ?

 

As for what passes as a similar machine, It's all quite subjective. Plenty of those $200 machines in that Amazon link are close enough in features for me, at any rate. They've got comparable CPUs, will all run indie games, emulators, media streaming apps, etc. and plug into a TV. Most of them come with an SSD and Windows or a full desktop Linux installed too, so would appear to have the mini PC side of things rather better covered than the VCS does, at least in terms of what I'd want to do with one.

 

Still, if having exactly the same CPU, AtariOS, the controllers, woodgrain and Fuji logos is what matters, there indeed isn't anything that's going to be similar enough, and the price is going to creep upwards the closer you try to match it. I just don't think there'll be a lot of people who feel like that, and Atari are probably going to struggle to sell more than a few thousand of them.

 

7 hours ago, youxia said:

It doesn't really matter what it costs in bulk and it's still much faster than an IDE HDD. It's included in VCS and that's that.  My Win 10 directory takes 14 GB, Linux far less, and most people use extrnal storage for media anyway.

The one on this PC takes up 35GB. They tend to grow a fair bit over time too.

 

The Windows folder itself is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what you need too. Windows also dumps a lot into Program Files, Program Data and Users plus there are the system files for things like hibernation, paging and system restore. Add all those up and you're probably much closer to 32GB unless you've taken steps to reduce its footprint and/or never run any updates.

 

Besides, a proper 120GB SSD only costs about $20. It's needless penny pinching to only put a $5 eMMC in a $400 computer. I'd prefer a barebones option, to be honest, because everyone's got different storage needs.

 

7 hours ago, youxia said:

This is beside the point, anyway. I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here, since probably half of my "reputation" likes come from criticising VCS over the years. But I'm a bit of a pedant whan it comes to arguments, no matter which "side" they are on. And this one, that VCS is allegedly such an abysmal proposition when it comes to price vs performance vs added value, in its particular class, simply does not add up.

Yeah, point taken.

 

Still, we can surely agree that AU$849 is egregious price gouging if nothing else.

[Lord Mushroom]

On 4/9/2021 at 12:56 AM, Cebus Capucinis said:

You should pre-order because it's incredibly unlikely to hit retail shelves at all. I suspect they can't produce the quantities they'd need, and they certainly don't have the cash flow to do so....

I don´t think the quantities they would need would be very high.  There will probably technically be a retail release as it will probably be possible to buy it in some stores. But I doubt that the thousands of Walmart stores in the US will all stock up on VCSs. Although it is possible if there is only a few units per store.

 

Don´t underestimate Atari´s ability to launch. They have no debt, and assets of over $40 million, so they could borrow at least $40 million to finance a retail launch. That is a lot of VCSs.  

 

They could also raise money by issuing stock, which they do all the time. They could raise at least $10 million that way. Allowing for at least another $10 million in debt.

 

They could also make a deal with the retailers or a third party to limit the amount of money they have to put up themselves. They could also roll it out instead of launching it everywhere at the same time.

 

As of September 30th 2020 they had invested $9,5 million on the VCS. Although $3+ million is from the backers, they will need to sell a relatively large number of units to recoup that money. So they are either going to sell more units than most people expect, or they will end up losing money.

 

On a sidenote, I am surprised how positive those who have a VCS are about it. I figured many of the backers would be disappointed. I am also surprised how happy I am that these people are happy about it.

 

 

[Lord Mushroom]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:16 PM, Lord Mushroom said:

Don´t underestimate Atari´s ability to launch. They have no debt, and assets of over $40 million, so they could borrow at least $40 million to finance a retail launch. That is a lot of VCSs.  

I read a financial report incorrectly. The assets are over $25 million, not $40 million.

[svenski]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:16 PM, Lord Mushroom said:

I don´t think the quantities they would need would be very high.  There will probably technically be a retail release as it will probably be possible to buy it in some stores. But I doubt that the thousands of Walmart stores in the US will all stock up on VCSs. Although it is possible if there is only a few units per store.

 

Don´t underestimate Atari´s ability to launch. They have no debt, and assets of over $40 million, so they could borrow at least $40 million to finance a retail launch. That is a lot of VCSs.  

 

They could also raise money by issuing stock, which they do all the time. They could raise at least $10 million that way. Allowing for at least another $10 million in debt.

 

They could also make a deal with the retailers or a third party to limit the amount of money they have to put up themselves. They could also roll it out instead of launching it everywhere at the same time.

 

As of September 30th 2020 they had invested $9,5 million on the VCS. Although $3+ million is from the backers, they will need to sell a relatively large number of units to recoup that money. So they are either going to sell more units than most people expect, or they will end up losing money.

 

On a sidenote, I am surprised how positive those who have a VCS are about it. I figured many of the backers would be disappointed. I am also surprised how happy I am that these people are happy about it.

 

 

I would really like the VCS to be a success but I think Cebus' comments are probably closer to the money.

 

Atari has actually lost money recently and they remain in the black simply because they've done some licensing, got an advance on potential court case wins, that sort of thing. Atari doesn't have the cash, doesn't have the cash flow, and certainly hasn't really been throwing the cash at it.  Any mention of Walmart seems to have vanished, as has any mention of Amazon in Australia - when I looked anyway.

 

This year will certainly be the year that makes or breaks the VCS. Kudos where it is deserved though, they saw the VCS through.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Mushroom]

11 minutes ago, svenski said:

Any mention of Walmart seems to have vanished, as has any mention of Amazon in Australia - when I looked anyway.

This is a distribution calender from an Atari investor presentation from December 2020:

Q1 2021 USA: 

Atari website, Walmart.com, Microcenter, Gamestop and Major chain being added in the US

Q1 2021: AUSTRALIA

Bluemouth (videogame specialist)

2021/2022: Northern Europe

 

It seems a physical release in Walmart is out the window.

[Rick Dangerous]

My VCS is officially on the slow boat from China! 

 

After a few weeks with VCS i got off ebay i'm willing to say that it's an interesting curiosity but i'm not sure it will see much success.  There simply isn't enough nostalgia for Atari among remaining active gamers to make this sell in any sort of significant numbers.  That said there are a lot of good ideas; and i'm certainly up for a more powerful PC box for my TV down the road sometime.  I hope the VCS does well and carves out a niche and following; but my expectations are low. The big challenge as i see it is the high price relative to power.  It's just not powerful enough to run much 3D stuff, and the indies it's likely to see are on every other platform under the sun and for less.  We'll see, only time and the market will tell!

 

 

[Allpaul]

1 minute ago, Rick Dangerous said:

My VCS is officially on the slow boat from China! 

 

After a few weeks with VCS i got off ebay i'm willing to say that it's an interesting curiosity but i'm not sure it will see much success.  There simply isn't enough nostalgia for Atari among remaining active gamers to make this sell in any sort of significant numbers.  That said there are a lot of good ideas; and i'm certainly up for a more powerful PC box for my TV down the road sometime.  I hope the VCS does well and carves out a niche and following; but my expectations are low. The big challenge as i see it is the high price relative to power.  It's just not powerful enough to run much 3D stuff, and the indies it's likely to see are on every other platform under the sun and for less.  We'll see, only time and the market will tell!

 

 

I just got the same email. I guess I need to figure out which M.2 drive to get, and find a copy of Windows 10.

[Rick Dangerous]

I will say things i like so far:

 

-My wife and kids like Airconsole, as do i

 

-There are a couple of fun games in the EShop so far (Missile Command, Atari Archives, Tailgunner, etc.)

 

-Windows 10 mode is cool.  I can run all my retro games from GOG Galaxy, which is plenty if you don't need AAA 3D stuff.

 

-The Chrome browser is nice and works well, lots of good games on Archive.org, from arcade, to MS-DOS libraries, etc. 

 

So it gets some use for sure; i'd say maybe 5-10% of my current gaming is on VCS, so it's definitely found a home amongst my media center. 

[Lord Mushroom]

6 hours ago, Rick Dangerous said:

It's just not powerful enough to run much 3D stuff,

There is always streaming. Playstation Now, Xbox Game Pass for PC, Geforce Now, EA Play, Stadia and more. Geforce Now and Stadia have a free option if you don´t want to spend any money. Just make sure you use a wired connection.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Lord Mushroom

[justclaws]

I was surprised to find that Gamestop have unblocked Europe, it seems. :-)
Now I got to check-out their website for the first time in a few years, I guess.

It's good to see several VCS combinations are now in the store, with a coming date.
It's also interesting that Gamestop game me a an "Also Like" list with the Amico. :-)
Meanwhile, more users who ordered from Atari directly reported getting their box.