It is really hard to accept, but...

[Faicuai]

...As times goes by fast, and the opportunity-window closes in, it is possible I may never complete my collection...

 

I know the 800 is the real king, and there is nothing like it (and its architecture) afterward, but I really do have.a soft-spot for what may be the finest, single-board, 8-bit keyboard-computer ever designed, after the 800... A real pity it could never see the mainstream-daylight it deserved,... What our XL-class should have always been !

 

 

...As depicted im what may also be the all-time coolest magazine front-page I have ever seen to this day (Analog, 1983)... and how we may only see it (in our dreams, of course).... Even the top-row labels are there (!!) ??

 

ONLY thing on earth cooler than this may be Curt Vendel´s race-shop avatar (may God hold him on his arms...)

 

????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lbaeza]

Hi

The 1400XL is featured on the cover of the book "Atari Graphics and Arcade Game Design":

 

 

I always wondered why did they use that particular model, instead of the more popular 400 or 800...

 

Kind regards,

 

Luis.

[ACML]

The 800 was a masterpiece and way ahead of its time.  I've always thought Atari styled it after the IBM Selectric typewriter.  Maybe to give the appearance of an office appliance.

 

 

The 400 architecture, now that's something new.  It's sleek, minimal footprint looks like an aerodynamic shape.  

 

I do believe that the 1200XL, 1400XL design has the best ever.  Single board, fantastic keyboard and the aesthetics are stunning. It just looks sexy and refined as 80's tech goes.  It loses the 70's IBM Selectric look and looks like the future.  I too wanted a 1450XLD so bad BITD, and was very disappointed when it never came to market.  At the time, I had no idea of all the financial trouble Atari was in as I eagerly awaited the 1400XL line to show up.  At least we have the 1200XL.

 

The 800 is a tank, seven boards and quality throughout (mechanical keyboard, PCB, components).  The 1200/1400XL's one board design provides superior reliability.  I loved my 800, but I would have traded it in a second for a 1400XL.

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by ACML

[Mclaneinc]

 

As I've said before, we got the promotional POS for the 1450XLD and I fell in love there and then, I just wanted it so badly, was one of those moments  where you know exactly what desk it will be on and you visualise it there and you playing on it straight away. Was gutted when it was cancelled..

 

But I still have The Beast that is the 800 and its a lion of a machine..

[+CharlieChaplin]

There are a few Atarians that do own a 1400XL and/or a 1450XLD. Since I can only dream of such a system, the best I had come up with was an official Atari catalog about the "Next generation Atari Home Computers", featuring the 600XL, 800XL, 1400XL, 1450XLD and the XL peripherals. Even that catalog sells for a high price at ebay nowadays (and I gave it away for free approx. 20 years ago, sigh).

 

https://archive.org/details/AtariCatalog.1984USA/mode/2up

 

Also very nice is this Atari brochure featuring the 1450XL, the 1090 and the Mindlink system: http://atariprojects.org/2020/09/06/explore-atari-computer-sales-brochures-and-catalogs-10-15-mins/

 

Besides, in the Dynamikum in Pirmasens/Germany they had a simple+working Mindlink system, named Mindball, where both players had to move a metallic sphere with their thoughts/brain onto the side of the other player to gain a point: 

 

 

I visited this "museum" (which is not really a museum, since you are very actively trying, testing and using the stuff shown there) several times and also played their Mindball successfully.

 

Maybe someone could create a large poster of a) a 1400XL and b) a 1450XLD that we can hang on the wall? And two posters of the 1600XL variants (concepts 1 and 2) that were never built, please... 

 

[Faicuai]

2 hours ago, ACML said:

It loses the 70's IBM Selectric look and looks like the future.

Well, it loses a WHOLE lot more than that, in fact.

 

Most of what's lost is reflected on the operational dimension, though. Many folks back in the day, who were running the 800's with Bit3, plug-in RAM expansions, were for one marveled at the 1200XL design, but on the other totally put-off by its limited and closed architecture. The fact of the matter is that hte XL-concept is a chopped-down version of the original (and more "radical" architecture of the 800). And, it only takes (today) 2 minutes to realize: while I have to spend a couple of hours expanding my 800XLs ram (internally), I can do that job in 5 minutes, on my 1980 CTIA 800, up to 544KB (!).

 

As for durability, again, all we need to think about is what happens when (RAM, or ROM, the most-failure prone-components) fail. On the XL, an almost complete tear-down is required for replacement (and., in several cases, de-soldering , as well). On the 800? About 30-45 seconds, flat, and no case-dismantling, in most cases.... and after that like nothing ever happened. In today terms, with U1MB or Incognito installed, a simple clock-BATTERY replacement would involved a complete tear-down of the 800XL, whereas the same replacement on the 800 would take 2 mins. flat, and essentially tool-less. Got my U1MB bricked? Even worse! In short, talk about a much better architecture, where function has no problem trumping form, although the 800 looks industrial, robust, while my 800XL looks like a little toy, next to it. 

 

Now, having said that, the 1400XL is special. First, it took the PBI concept more seriously, as you could see the extent to which several of its key address and/or data lines are actually BUFFERED (contrary to later XL versions). Second, it took the key ingredients from the 1200XL (including its ergonomics and modern design), and went further ahead into evolving the platform seeking a more "connected" and "multimedia" type of computing experience. Not only that, both the modem and Voice handler seem to have been handled through PBI ROM-extensions, which means it also put the PBI architecture in motion! In fact, a mouse would have looked absolutely natural and its very next logical extension (!)

 

In short, the 1400XL lost almost all of the 800's architectural prowess (while not gaining more reliability, in reality), but it refined and pushed further the concept of a closed, one-board, keyboard computer to something really worth of our attention, by any means...

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Faicuai
Completeness, clean-up...

[ivop]

With @mytek's designs at hand, it is possible to create a computer similar to the 800. A main board that provides power, maybe some logic or buffering, and a master bus with multiple edge connectors. Put all five VLSI chips on a separate plug-in card. Sixth card with MMU, seventh card with RAM, eighth card with ROM, and a few spare slots.

 

Base board 20x20cm. Slots 200 mil by 10cm plus 400 mil spacing for chips hanging off the boards. With that width, you can handle 60-70 channels on the bus that rules them all. One ore two standard edge connectors. Plug-in cards are 10x5cm or 10x10 cm, with pin headers at the top to bring out the signals to the connectors. You can have at least 12 bus connectors on 20x10cm, have 6 more on 10x10cm, and leave the other 10x10cm for bus drivers, power, etc...

 

The master bus should consist of at least the address bus, data bus, all clocks, including fast clock/bus between GTIA and ANTIC. SIO. Audio. MMU lines. Perhaps more

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by ivop

[ACML]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

As for durability, again, all we need to think about is what happens when (RAM, or ROM, the most-failure prone-components) fail. On the XL, an almost complete tear-down is required for replacement (and., in several cases, de-soldering , as well). On the 800? About 30-45 seconds, flat,

 

 

My experience with reliability is somewhat different.  The 800 has seven boards and the 400 has four.  All my hardware issues over the many years, excluding the 1200XL keyboard, have been with 800's and 400's.  They won't boot due to oxidation on a card edge, a RAM or ROM chip has gone bad, and my all time favorite, it fries the 9VAC brick due to a short somewhere on the PWR board.  I've had at least three 400/800's fry my 9VAC brick due to an issue with the PWR boards. I have yet to need to replace a VLSI chip or any other component for that matter in the many 1200XLs I've had.  When I see an eBay listing that says "untested", I am more risk averse about a 400/800 than a 1200XL as to whether it will fire up.  The lack of sockets on the 600/800XL line is another story.  That's just been my experience.  The 1200XL and 1400XL design of one board just eliminates durability issues that a mutli-PCB design has.  Also, in almost all cases that I've had to fix a 400/800, pretty much total disassembly was required and it's a lot more involved than the 1200XL's 6 screws on case and six screws on board to bottom case to get to the VLSI components.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by ACML

[BillC]

13 minutes ago, ACML said:

it fries the 9VAC brick due to a short somewhere on the PWR board.

A short on the power board just blows the fuse in the power supply, while difficult to open it is repairable.

[Faicuai]

 

1 hour ago, ACML said:

My experience with reliability is somewhat different.

You bet!

 

I worked at sales in a technology / Electronics store back in the day, when I still in high-school. We sold Atari, Epson, Commodore, Tandy, IBM, Olivetti, Apple, Amiga, you name it!

 

My first machine (400, which I got there) eventually ended up being a total dud, unfortunately. It would fail when getting a bit hotter, and would fly-stuck when pressing System Reset. Quite a challenge to repair, even for the techs we had back then.

 

To this day, I have replaced PIAs, Pokeys, RAMs, GTIAs and CPUs on my 800XLs... The last 130XE I had, went to the garbage can. On my 800s? Nothing, except the occasional RAM-board failure, which it only takes a quick swap to fix, tooless. Even my most recent CTIA, week-4 1980 unit... Tore it down for clean-up, re-assembled it, fired it up and it passed every single test I threw at it (with SuperSalt HW assembly and Acid800, for hours! Its modularity ends up allowing much quicker and faster isolation of global problems, provided you have some spares (smart approach!)... Need more juice to power larger RAM and Bit3 boards? No problem, you can just upgrade external A/C power-block up to 60 watts! (input-rated)  Even with internal power supply issues, just swap-out the main power-board for a fresh one, which takes down-time to virtually zero, and then fix offending board outside (because it can still be fully operated even when detached from MoBo !!)

 

On my 800XLs? Blown actives and passives due to garbage external power-supply failure, plus system-wide troubleshooting is required, even for simple failures (until I purchased SysCheck II, which is a God-send)... In any case,  it is what it is, for the good and the bad.

 

But, as I said, the 1400XL is a worthwhile exception, though. ?

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Faicuai
Garbage cleanup, etc.

[ACML]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

 

You bet!

 

I worked at sales in a technology / Electronics store back in the day, when I still in high-school. We sold Atari, Epson, Commodore, Tandy, IBM, Olivetti, Apple, Amiga, you name it!

 

My first machine (400, which I got there) eventually ended up being a total dud, unfortunately. It would fail when getting a bit hotter, and would fly-stuck when pressing System Reset. Quite a challenge to repair, even for the techs we had back then.

 

To this day, I have replaced PIAs, Pokeys, RAMs, GTIAs and CPUs on my 800XLs... The last 130XE I had, went to the garbage can. On my 800s? Nothing, except the occasional RAM-board failure, which it only takes a quick swap to fix, tooless. Even my most recent CTIA, week-4 1980 unit... Tore it down for clean-up, re-assembled it, fired it up and it passed every single test I threw at it (with SuperSalt HW assembly and Acid800, for hours! Its modularity ends up allowing much quicker and faster isolation of global problems, provided you have some spares (smart approach!)... Need more juice to power larger RAM and Bit3 boards? No problem, you can just upgrade external A/C power-block up to 60 watts! (input-rated)  Even with internal power supply issues, just swap-out the main power-board for a fresh one, which takes down-time to virtually zero, and then fix offending board outside (because it can still be fully operated even when detached from MoBo !!)

 

On my 800XLs? Blown actives and passives due to garbage external power-supply failure, plus system-wide troubleshooting is required, even for simple failures (until I purchased SysCheck II, which is a God-send)... In any case,  it is what it is, for the good and the bad.

 

But, as I said, the 1400XL is a worthwhile exception, though. ?

 

Why is the 1200XL also not a worthwhile exception, reliability speaking.  I understand your experience with 800XLs and 130XEs as they were built with absolute cost reduction in mind to compete with the C-64.  They are totally different animals than the 1200XL in terms of build quality.  I haven't used an 800XL since 1989.  My experience and comments are limited to the 400/800 and 1200XL.

 

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, ACML said:

Why is the 1200XL also not a worthwhile exception, reliability speaking.  I understand your experience with 800XLs and 130XEs as they were built with absolute cost reduction in mind to compete with the C-64.  They are totally different animals than the 1200XL in terms of build quality.  I haven't used an 800XL since 1989.  My experience and comments are limited to the 400/800 and 1200XL.

 

Oh, I see what you mean.

 

Never saw or implied that the 1200XL had a questionable reliability record, though (except for, maybe, the majority on eBay being DoA with inoperable keyboards, although that can be addressed and restored).

 

However, from an architectural point-of-view it is as closed as a 400! I remember the day when it first arrived at our shop. We were all stunned by its BeAuTiFuL and classy design, great and functional keyboard, ability to turn on and off DMA operation at will, forward-slanted joysticks ports on the left-side, sleek side cart-port (so it does not look stupid with a cart in the top-middle as my 800XLs do, etc...)

 

But then, it had an OS that made it incompatible with the 800 legacy, it had 16 KB under that rom, which were not easily usable by existing SW, it had no expansion ports to speak of, etc... Like a product that was not really finished, evolutionary speaking. We immediately noticed we could not go that further with it back then and it did not sell well, unfortunately (and even today, a lesser-quality 800XL may offer a lot easier-to-grasp expansion potential than anything the 1200XL could offer without some real surgery on it...)

 

The 1400XL, on the other hand, clearly promised addressing all that, right out of the box (and even more!) It is the XL-class computer we should ALL have had, back on its time... and we may well never have, unfortunately!

Edited March 6, 2021 by Faicuai
Garbage, tons of typos, etc.

[Mazzspeed]

I see the inclusion of an internal modem an odd decision regarding the 1400XL. Atari's 8bit line needed some form of RS232 capable port, allowing the user to attach any modem they wish without the need for expensive SIO adapters or proprietary Atari products.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

I see the inclusion of an internal modem an odd decision regarding the 1400XL. Atari's 8bit line needed some form of RS232 capable port, allowing the user to attach any modem they wish without the need for expensive SIO adapters or proprietary Atari products.

...Or not spending a dime on anything external, since it would be already there (and PBI-registered).

 

But in any case, yes, that decision was widely criticized ... not because of the modem, but its paltry 300 bps... 

[_The Doctor__]

300 baud was beyond stupid, they didn't  bother to modernize the ancient designs

[+Allan]

6 hours ago, CharlieChaplin said:

 

 

https://archive.org/details/AtariCatalog.1984USA/mode/2up

 

Back in 1982-1983, Electronic Fun magazine sponcered a video game event in New York City that was open to the public. It was amazing. One of things I remember was Atari had tons of this particular catalog piled everywhere. I took a bunch of them. I just drooled at the 1400XL and 1450XLD. I still have a few. I don't remember if they actually had the 1400 and 1450 there but I remember they did have a huge display (as well as Coleco.) Amazing memories. I wish I had kept more of the paper work I took home. Coleco was giving out folders which had flyers for each game the published as well as many future games not released yet (and some that never came out.) I wish I could remember more details from it. There were a lot of companies there showing stuff off.