Keatah Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 On 5/23/2021 at 8:32 PM, Mr SQL said: AA is further enhanced by Audacity drawing more mainstream attention, so why not be inspired by their products genuine authenticity and refreshing sales figures? Agree on the mainstream attention. Sure. But not on the "Genuine Authenticity" part. Why is it genuine and authentic? Because Activision programmers? Not enough. Because from-back-in-the-day? Not enough. What makes Audacity's code authentic and a modern-day hombrewer's code not authentic? On 5/23/2021 at 8:32 PM, Mr SQL said: Maybe one day the Activision superstars will allow AA to carry their new dream ware, in an elite section of the store. I don't see them as superstars at all. I can instantly count 5 "superstar devs" right here on AA in 5 seconds. Elite section of the AA store? What other games would go in there? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Keatah said: No. They're selling on the internet. They have a responsibility to operate properly in that medium. And that means 0-day response to questions. No, it absolutely doesn't. That's not how most large corporate businesses operate for low cost consumer products like this (internet, or otherwise), never mind tiny startups for extremely niche pet projects. The internet has absolutely spoiled people into thinking they are entitled to instant gratification for every minor consumer gripe or dislike. They are not, full stop. People bought a $50 video game for a defunct console platform, not a mission critical infrastructure software platform that serves millions of customers. For example: I recently bought a Retrotink 2x mini to connect my old consoles to my HDMI-only TV. It makes the s-video modded 7800 I have look beautiful on it. What I found out later was that some Atari games don't work on it at all - like Starmaster because of the scanline count. and The entire Sega 32x Console is unstable and mostly unplayable due to the out of spec chroma signal it outputs/ You know what I did about it? Nothing. Because it's a 30 year old console, and these kinds of technical issue are unavoidable with ancient tech, and I didn't read up enough about it before purchasing. So do the purchasers of Circus Convoy whose copies don't work deserve a refund or a working exchange? Sure, absolutely. Are then entitled to a response within a "0 day" window? Absolutely not, under any circumstances. That's flat out bananas entitlement. Edited May 25, 2021 by John Stamos Mullet 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Well..maybe.. Its natural behavior that the faster something is, the "more faster" the user wants it to be. Example when copying a file on the Apple II, it could take several seconds to move 32K or 48K.. But I demand my i9 copy a gig a second. Anything else is painstakingly slow and annoying. E-Commerce is instant compared to the 4-6 weeks we'd wait for mail order in the 70's and early 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said: For example: I recently bought a Retrotink 2x mini to connect my old consoles to my HDMI-only TV. It makes the s-video modded 7800 I have look beautiful on it. What I found out later was that some Atari games don't work on it at all - like Starmaster because of the scanline count. and The entire Sega 32x Console is unstable and mostly unplayable due to the out of spec chroma signal it outputs/ You know what I did about it? Nothing. Because it's a 30 year old console, and these kinds of technical issue are unavoidable with ancient tech, and I didn't read up enough about it before purchasing. The retrothink incompatibilities due to out of specs signals produced by different consoles isn't really related with what's being discussed here. The two reported issues with the game are not the result of machines that are out of specs because of aging, but they're instead bugs in the code. The bug is still there even on machines where apparently doesn't show up (and even if it doesn't show up today on a particular machine, it could tomorrow). 1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said: So do the purchasers of Circus Convoy whose copies don't work deserve a refund or a working exchange? Sure, absolutely. Are then entitled to a response within a "0 day" window? Absolutely not, under any circumstances. That's flat out bananas entitlement. If you re-read the previous posts, no-one was expecting a 0-day response. The issue with the loss of color in PAL consoles has been reported a month ago, and so far only got an indirect response with a post basically saying "Yeah, there's a bug, but it's only showing on PAL, so it's not a big deal". I'm pretty sure people in Europe paid the same amount for the game and are entitled to feel a bit upset. And the comparison with how similar issues are handled by AtariAge came up naturally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Also, how they positioned themselves regarding other homebrewers and distributors plays a role in the reactions too. I still wouldn't have expected 0-day responses. But I would have expected that any bugs found are handled more adequate. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Innit Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 The colour loss on my PAL cart doesn't bother me too much. What does is the whole screen flickers/flashes making it very hard on my eyes during the duck shoot. Does that happen for others too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lord Innit said: The colour loss on my PAL cart doesn't bother me too much. What does is the whole screen flickers/flashes making it very hard on my eyes during the duck shoot. Does that happen for others too? For me the Duck Shoot starts in black&white for a second and then starts flashing, alternating between green and pink. It is hard on the eyes, but playable for me. Also, my '2600 Jr isn't affected by the "bunny bugs", so I can basically play though the game (although I never reached the final sideshow ?) Edited May 25, 2021 by Dionoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Innit Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 56 minutes ago, Dionoid said: For me the Duck Shoot starts in black&white for a second and then starts flashing, alternating between green and pink. It is hard on the eyes, but playable for me. Also, my '2600 Jr isn't affected by the "bunny bugs", so I can basically play though the game (although I never reached the final sideshow ?) I took a video of mine and screen grabbed a couple of times. It seems that mine is flashing between B&W and colour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 8 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said: The internet has absolutely spoiled people into thinking they are entitled to instant gratification for every minor consumer gripe or dislike. I can't believe I'm agreeing with you on something, but I'm agreeing with you. What is this world coming to? 6 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Also, how they positioned themselves regarding other homebrewers and distributors plays a role in the reactions too. I've heard this from a few people now, exactly what did they say? I honestly haven't followed this thread much and really haven't had time to play with my copy of the game past a cursory run through. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Tempest said: I've heard this from a few people now, exactly what did they say? I honestly haven't followed this thread much and really haven't had time to play with my copy of the game past a cursory run through. I can only repeat what people posted here. But I have no reason not to trust their words. Either they did get no response at all or the bug was played down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tempest said: 10 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said: The internet has absolutely spoiled people into thinking they are entitled to instant gratification for every minor consumer gripe or dislike. I can't believe I'm agreeing with you on something, but I'm agreeing with you. I 100% agree with this too. But, this is not happening in this thread. In fact the post you quoted is the first one bringing up the subject of "instant response" customer service. No one talked about that before. Edited May 25, 2021 by alex_79 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 54 minutes ago, alex_79 said: I 100% agree with this too. But, this is not happening in this thread. In fact the post you quoted is the first one bringing up the subject of "instant response" customer service. No one talked about that before. It absolutely happened because that's exactly what Keatah said to me, directly. I even quoted him. You and others may disagree, but it was definitely said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 9 hours ago, alex_79 said: The retrothink incompatibilities due to out of specs signals produced by different consoles isn't really related with what's being discussed here. The two reported issues with the game are not the result of machines that are out of specs because of aging, but they're instead bugs in the code. The bug is still there even on machines where apparently doesn't show up (and even if it doesn't show up today on a particular machine, it could tomorrow). They are related in the sense that they are both bugs that happen in old tech, because these small hobbyist projects aren't perfect, don't have giant corporate product testing, and they cannot possibly account for every single possible bug scenario, and also deliver a product that meets the insanely entitled delivery demands of the typical consumers of these products. The game has a bug. It will likely get fixed. The game has only been out for about a month or two. These things take time. At the end of the day - none of this is really important. It's video games. It's not like you're filing a malpractice complaint because a doctor killed a loved one on an OR table. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 22 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: they are both bugs that happen in old tech, because these small hobbyist projects aren't perfect, don't have giant corporate product testing, and they cannot possibly account for every single possible bug scenario Stella provides a setting especially for developers/tester. It (also) exposes a number of common programming bugs. The bugs reported for CC wouldn't have passed unnoticed using this mode. We spent quite some time to provide these extra functionality, only to (quite regularly) find out, that developers make no use from it. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Stella provides a setting especially for developers/tester. It (also) exposes a number of common programming bugs. The bugs reported for CC wouldn't have passed unnoticed using this mode. We spent quite some time to provide these extra functionality, only to (quite regularly) find out, that developers make no use from it. From everything I've read - Crane and Kitchen didn't use any modern development tools, such as Stella, and instead coded using their original dev platforms to keep everything authentic. Maybe they should have used Stella, sure. But they didn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 19 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: Maybe they should have used Stella, sure. But they didn't. I think they did use Stella, but were unaware of the Developer settings. I detailed how to enable PAL color loss here and Mr. Crane responded: Quote Thanks for that, Darrell. Stella, the labor of love and wonderful tool it has always been, never ceases to amaze! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said: They are related in the sense that they are both bugs that happen in old tech, because these small hobbyist projects aren't perfect, don't have giant corporate product testing, and they cannot possibly account for every single possible bug scenario, and also deliver a product that meets the insanely entitled delivery demands of the typical consumers of these products. Not at all. Your new retrothink doesn't have any bug, and the issues you're having is because of the signal that the VCS is outputting (and not because of the aging components, but because of its design). It is advertised that some console with out-the spec signal might not work correctly. And the VCS is the worst in this area, because it's up to the games themselves to generate the video signal, so you can have different results based on the specific game. On the other hand, the new CC game has bugs in it. The consoles that show the bug are working just fine. 37 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: From everything I've read - Crane and Kitchen didn't use any modern development tools, such as Stella, and instead coded using their original dev platforms to keep everything authentic. Maybe they should have used Stella, sure. But they didn't. I seriously will NEVER believe that they didn't use Stella, anyway that's not an excuse. You can find those bugs with little effort even without Stella. The PAL color loss just requires.... a PAL console and TV. The rabbit bug can be found by writing a script that checks the list file generated by the assembler (you could do that in the 80s, too), or by installing 8 resistors with a switch that connects them to either GND and +5V on the console data bus. If the game has the bug, it will fail with the switches in one (or both) of the positions. (Switches and resistors existed in the 80s) 1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said: It absolutely happened because that's exactly what Keatah said to me, directly. I even quoted him. You and others may disagree, but it was definitely said. Yep, in response of your post. Like I said, NO ONE ever talked about that before your post. You brought up that subject. I mean, that's a fact, there's nothing to argue about. The posts are there, just read them yourself. Edited May 25, 2021 by alex_79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, SpiceWare said: I think they did use Stella, but were unaware of the Developer settings. I detailed how to enable PAL color loss here and Mr. Crane responded: I mean... maybe? Maybe not. I can't tell if his response is intended to be an admission of using Stella, or a condescending head pat "thank you" style remark... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: I mean... maybe? Maybe not. I can't tell if his response is intended to be an admission of using Stella, or a condescending head pat "thank you" style remark... Oh come on, stop beating this dead horse or I'm going to kick you out of this thread. ..Al 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, alex_79 said: On the other hand, the new CC game has bugs in it. The consoles that show the bug are working just fine. I mean - if there are consoles that play the game without showing the bug (like mine) - does that mean they aren't working fine because they DON'T have a problem? I realize the bug can be fixed in code, so it's clearly a game bug - but if it only is a problem on certain consoles, and not across the board - that would seem to be a buggy console revision, and not the other way around. Being an Atari 7800 owner - this issue happens all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Just now, John Stamos Mullet said: I mean - if there are consoles that play the game without showing the bug (like mine) - does that mean they aren't working fine because they DON'T have a problem? I realize the bug can be fixed in code, so it's clearly a game bug - but if it only is a problem on certain consoles, and not across the board - that would seem to be a buggy console revision, and not the other way around. Nope. The consoles are fine. I linked to a technincal article explaining what's going on in one of my previous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 There is no console bug. Period. You are talking to game and emulator developers here. What qualifies you to continue to doubt our expertise? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: There is no console bug. Period. You are talking to game and emulator developers here. What qualifies you to continue to doubt our expertise? I asked a question based on my own limited experience with 7800 console revision incompatibility issues. I'm not a developer. I'm not doubting anyone's expertise. Edited May 25, 2021 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+D Train Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 6 hours ago, SpiceWare said: I think they did use Stella, but were unaware of the Developer settings. I detailed how to enable PAL color loss here and Mr. Crane responded: oh, fun! I'm glad that DC chimed in and that you were able to help him out a little! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 1 hour ago, D Train said: oh, fun! I'm glad that DC chimed in and that you were able to help him out a little! Professionals usually don't need help, they write all their own code and tools. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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