Ex-Activision Designers Launch Retro Game Publisher Audacity Games™

[+batari]

On 5/22/2021 at 2:23 PM, Stephen said:

Sounds like the mistakes some amateur homebrew clowns would make, not some big badass studio

As I have made some of the hardware that homebrew games are played on, I can say that I have found this same mistake in a good number of games. It usually starts with someone telling me something like, "Game X doesn't work on your hardware!" So I look at game X and the game almost invariably has this same bug in it. Since my hardware is working just fine and I can't fix something that isn't broken, I usually end up fixing the game and sending it along! I have personally fixed dozens of games like this.

 

Even before I made hardware that plays other people's games, I already knew this mistake was common so it led me to create an auditing tool for source code that I posted in my blog here long ago. I am not sure if many people used it, though, not unlike the developer tools in Stella that would later help find the same bugs.

 

I think this particular bug is almost diabolical because it is such an easy mistake to make, because on the 2600 (and possibly to a lesser extent, the 7800), this mistake can pass through the cracks unnoticed, while on other systems it almost never would go unnoticed.

This same bug is also in commercial software, even in Atari releases like Video Pinball and Dodge 'Em, and probably others, so it's not just affecting homebrews.

 

It is worth mentioning, though, that some of the more elite homebrewers quite possibly have never made this mistake. I never heard about such bugs in their games, nor have I ever had to fix any of these bugs in their games

 

But if you think one of those homebrewers is me, think again. Despite that I am so hyper-aware of this issue, a couple of years ago I caught myself making this same mistake thanks to Stella.

[John Stamos Mullet]

16 hours ago, batari said:

As I have made some of the hardware that homebrew games are played on, I can say that I have found this same mistake in a good number of games. It usually starts with someone telling me something like, "Game X doesn't work on your hardware!" So I look at game X and the game almost invariably has this same bug in it. Since my hardware is working just fine and I can't fix something that isn't broken, I usually end up fixing the game and sending it along! I have personally fixed dozens of games like this.

 

Even before I made hardware that plays other people's games, I already knew this mistake was common so it led me to create an auditing tool for source code that I posted in my blog here long ago. I am not sure if many people used it, though, not unlike the developer tools in Stella that would later help find the same bugs.

 

I think this particular bug is almost diabolical because it is such an easy mistake to make, because on the 2600 (and possibly to a lesser extent, the 7800), this mistake can pass through the cracks unnoticed, while on other systems it almost never would go unnoticed.

This same bug is also in commercial software, even in Atari releases like Video Pinball and Dodge 'Em, and probably others, so it's not just affecting homebrews.

 

It is worth mentioning, though, that some of the more elite homebrewers quite possibly have never made this mistake. I never heard about such bugs in their games, nor have I ever had to fix any of these bugs in their games

 

But if you think one of those homebrewers is me, think again. Despite that I am so hyper-aware of this issue, a couple of years ago I caught myself making this same mistake thanks to Stella.

Thank you for being an enlightening voice of reason.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

23 hours ago, batari said:

It is worth mentioning, though, that some of the more elite homebrewers quite possibly have never made this mistake. I never heard about such bugs in their games, nor have I ever had to fix any of these bugs in their games

I can say for myself that I after 20 years of excessive training I am more than aware of that mistake. Which means, I make the mistake too, but recognize it almost immediately.  

 

BTW: The bug itself is always an easy fix. Usually it is only one byte which has to be changed. This is the case in CC too and it took us a less than half an hour to find and fix it. It is a flag bit which is set by the code, but due to the mistake also sets another flag bit. And the latter leads to the QR code screen.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Tempest]

On 5/26/2021 at 6:05 AM, batari said:

This same bug is also in commercial software, even in Atari releases like Video Pinball and Dodge 'Em, and probably others, so it's not just affecting homebrews.

Which bug is that?  Just curious.

[MrTrust]

On 5/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, CPUWIZ said:

Totally forgot, was going to post some "non-professional" patches. 

 

One of them I got for outstanding support for the 7800 community, I am sure there are thousands of these, right?

 

 

Very nice.  You can see that with all but the Olympics one, they were sewn on the substrate and then hand-cut out either with scissors or a hot knife.  You can see the substrate sticking out through the stitching there.  Personal preference as to whether you want the cleaner edge or not, I guess.  Point is, you have to carefully hand finish them, and that's more labor intensive.  Not a problem if you want to order thousands of them from overseas, or if you want a really small run from an Etsy seller who's doing it as a hobby or a side gig.  If you want to do a mid-sized run of, say, 500, that's a little trickier.  The Etsy guy likely can't scale up to do it, and, and a smaller shop isn't going to want to tie up an embroidery operator on the extra work finishing them, especially if they're not getting a markup on a garment.  Many of the bigger outfits are going to want a higher minimum.  Like I said, it's not necessarily a matter of cost, just availability.

 

The Olympics one is sewn on a prefabbed patch that would be less labor intensive, which is no problem because of the plain white background which, of course, is not the case with the CC image, and they're all much simpler and less detailed images than the CC one.  That 7800 one is going to sew in a fraction of the time embroidering that CC logo would take.  Even ol' Asterix there has much fewer fine lines and color changes.

 

I mean.  I'm with you; I much prefer the look of these and would have recommended they simplify their artwork and do real embroidery, but I wouldn't simply chalk it up to them cheaping out.  It wouldn't be a bit surprising if whoever they got their swag through never even presented the option in the first place.  Roll your eyes all you want; I do this for a living going on 10 years, and I can tell you, you go to a trade show and get samples from any of the big patch-making companies, and none of them are pushing embroidery.  If they hand you an embroidered sample at all, it's more likely to be as an "inferior" example to some other method they're selling.  Not for cost reasons, but for image fidelity.

 

 

 

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

2 hours ago, Tempest said:

Which bug is that?  Just curious.

It is a missing '#', which makes the difference between reading from zero page memory or loading an immediate value. The latter is usually what you want.

 

One would expect that would make a big difference and therefore the bug would be very obvious. But remember, the 2600 is a beast! 

 

Half of the zero page memory is reading from TIA. And all TIA read registers only use a few bits, the other ones are undefined. Which means they are either set or not, you cannot know. But they are not random, their value depends on how the TIA chip handles the undefined bits. Most chips use the last bits from the data bus (e.g. reading from address 8 would put 8 onto the data bus). Which happens to be the value you wanted load. And then the bug is not found during testing.

 

But there are chips which handle the unused bits differently, and there the faulty code fails. These chips are totally fine, because the state of the unused bit is nowhere defined. The bug is only in the code.

 

By default Stella emulates the most common chips, so that old faulty games still work. But it has an option for developers which randomizes the unused bits to make the developer aware of such bugs.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[+Armscar Coder]

@Thomas Jentzsch, thanks for the "down to earth" explanation.  I have been loosely following this topic as well as others and I often find myself not able to grasp all or any of the details.  I think it was a former NYC mayor who was famous for saying "I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you."  I usually fall into that category in the forums, but this explanation helps and will hopefully make me a better programmer.

7 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I can say for myself that I after 20 years of excessive training I am more than aware of that mistake. Which means, I make the mistake too, but recognize it almost immediately.

Glad to see that you are human after all.

[Tempest]

36 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

It is a missing '#', which makes the difference between reading from zero page memory or loading an immediate value. The latter is usually what you want.

 

One would expect that would make a big difference and therefore the bug would be very obvious. But remember, the 2600 is a beast! 

 

Half of the zero page memory is reading from TIA. And all TIA read registers only use a few bits, the other ones are undefined. Which means they are either set or not, you cannot know. But they are not random, their value depends on how the TIA chip handles the undefined bits. Most chips use the last bits from the data bus (e.g. reading from address 8 would put 8 onto the data bus). Which happens to be the value you wanted load. And then the bug is not found during testing.

 

But there are chips which handle the unused bits differently, and there the faulty code fails. These chips are totally fine, because the state of the unused bit is nowhere defined. The bug is only in the code.

 

By default Stella emulates the most common chips, so that old faulty games still work. But it has an option for developers which randomizes the unused bits to make the developer aware of such bugs.

 

I hope that makes sense.

Thank you, it does.  I guess it doesn't do anything noticeable in those games (VP and DE), because I can't find anything about it on the various bug pages.

[CPUWIZ]

I have a check for that in my personal disassembler, that is built into MCP (which also supports all working illegal opcodes that work on the 7800), because I found this bug in Bob's code.

[CPUWIZ]

On 5/27/2021 at 9:07 AM, MrTrust said:

Not a problem if you want to order thousands of them from overseas, or if you want a really small run from an Etsy seller who's doing it as a hobby or a side gig.  If you want to do a mid-sized run of, say, 500, that's a little trickier.  The Etsy guy likely can't scale up to do it, and, and a smaller shop isn't going to want to tie up an embroidery operator on the extra work finishing them, especially if they're not getting a markup on a garment.  Many of the bigger outfits are going to want a higher minimum.  Like I said, it's not necessarily a matter of cost, just availability.

 

You can ask Walter about details, but I know they were made in Asia, not a mom and pop shop and also not in huge quantities.  It is WHO you know, not what you know or read on the internet, or experience in your world of manufacturing for that matter.  Big planet with all sorts of different rules, regulations, costs - BLAH!

[MrTrust]

15 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

You can ask Walter about details, but I know they were made in Asia, not a mom and pop shop and also not in huge quantities.  It is WHO you know, not what you know or read on the internet, or experience in your world of manufacturing for that matter.  Big planet with all sorts of different rules, regulations, costs - BLAH!

 

That's why I fucking said "a little trickier" and not "impossible".  Your original contention was that printed patches aren't common, just cheaper.  A) they absolutely are common, B) they aren't necessarily cheaper, and C) the cost is not necessarily the issue.  No shit you could do it.  There are just X, Y, and Z reasons why you wouldn't that don't have anything to do with cost.

 

If a customer came to me and wanted a few hundred of that 7800 patch, giddy up.  I'll bang 'em out in an afternoon myself if need be.  If they brought me that CC artwork, I'd tell them we need to do a printed patch, and if they still insisted on embroidery, I'd either quote them some ludicrous price so they decide to go elsewhere, or just straight up say "no".  Not because it can't be done; the juuice just isn't worth the squeeze.  Just look at the embroidery somebody posted on the hat they got.  It's passable looking at it from a distance, but zoom in and look close and you can see it looks like shit. The rainbows coming out of the exhaust pipes are mostly a black, blobby mess.  The grill on the front is just a bunch of squiggles that aren't in proper registration.  They omitted the detail on the license plate and the side of the truck.  Things like that.  Now, if you don't care that it's going to look like shit, then sure, you can find a vendor who also doesn't care and will hammer the job out for you.

 

But a lot of shops do care if it looks like shit, and to make sure that it doesn't is going to take way more work than doing that ET patch.  You're going to have to explain to the customer that there need to be edits like dropping the license plate text and proof that out.  They're going to hem and haw about even the tiniest change and show you pictures of other patches they've seen which are not at all comparable in terms of complexity and say "well, this looks just like the picture".  Once you get an approval after all that back-and-forth, it's going to take longer than usual to digitize, and you're going to need to test sew and make adjustments to get all those fine outlines and everything in proper registration.  More setup time than even the Asterix, and waaaaaay more than the 7800 one.  That, AND almost all shops charge per 1,000 stitches unless you're getting into huge volume.  A more more complex image with many color changes and and trims and all that is going to take longer to sew, BUT that does not necessarily bump up the stitch count.  So, an already low-margin product is now an even lower-margin one.  And now I'm tying up machines and operators on this noise instead of on bigger accounts that are more profitable.

 

So, for these reasons and others, I would simply pass on that job, even though, sure I could do it.  I assure you, I'm not close to being alone on that.  Now, yes, if you're absolutely bound and determined to get that fucking logo embroidered as a patch, you can find some sucker who will be willing to take the bath on it just to have the job, or some sweatshop that will just take your artwork and crank out a messy piece of shit for you.

 

But if you go to a decent, reputable shop who care about the integrity of your branding and all that jazz, the rep is going to strongly recommend against doing full embroidery.  The option is probably not even going to be discussed, at least with an image like that.  Again, nothing to do with one being cheaper than the other for the customer.

 

 

 

 

[youxia]

I find it quite amazing that people can get so exercised about patches in 2021. Reminds me of the Eighties, when an "original" Metallica or Public Enemy patch could be quite a status symbol (I grew up in the second world, where most things were poor imitations).

[MrTrust]

14 minutes ago, youxia said:

I find it quite amazing that people can get so exercised about patches in 2021. Reminds me of the Eighties, when an "original" Metallica or Public Enemy patch could be quite a status symbol (I grew up in the second world, where most things were poor imitations).

 

You and me both, man.  People have been going bonkers for them over the last few years.  Especially the printed or sublimated ones.  They want 'em on hats, they want 'em on work shirts, jackets, blankets, loose, you name it.  Not exactly sure where the trend came from, but every time I incorporate some kind of patch into an embroidery job, 9 times out of 10 they're going to come right back in and reorder within a few weeks.  It's nuts.  And kind of annoying, actually, because full embroidery when done right is always going to look more professional and there's more craftsmanship to it, but gotta' give the people what they want, I guess.

 

How could you tell if a Metallica or PE patch was legit back then?  I would've thought that those would be super easy to counterfeit convincingly.

[CPUWIZ]

4 hours ago, MrTrust said:

 

That's why I fucking said "a little trickier" and not "impossible".  Your original contention was that printed patches aren't common, just cheaper.  A) they absolutely are common, B) they aren't necessarily cheaper, and C) the cost is not necessarily the issue.  No shit you could do it.  There are just X, Y, and Z reasons why you wouldn't that don't have anything to do with cost.

 

If a customer came to me and wanted a few hundred of that 7800 patch, giddy up.  I'll bang 'em out in an afternoon myself if need be.  If they brought me that CC artwork, I'd tell them we need to do a printed patch, and if they still insisted on embroidery, I'd either quote them some ludicrous price so they decide to go elsewhere, or just straight up say "no".  Not because it can't be done; the juuice just isn't worth the squeeze.  Just look at the embroidery somebody posted on the hat they got.  It's passable looking at it from a distance, but zoom in and look close and you can see it looks like shit. The rainbows coming out of the exhaust pipes are mostly a black, blobby mess.  The grill on the front is just a bunch of squiggles that aren't in proper registration.  They omitted the detail on the license plate and the side of the truck.  Things like that.  Now, if you don't care that it's going to look like shit, then sure, you can find a vendor who also doesn't care and will hammer the job out for you.

 

But a lot of shops do care if it looks like shit, and to make sure that it doesn't is going to take way more work than doing that ET patch.  You're going to have to explain to the customer that there need to be edits like dropping the license plate text and proof that out.  They're going to hem and haw about even the tiniest change and show you pictures of other patches they've seen which are not at all comparable in terms of complexity and say "well, this looks just like the picture".  Once you get an approval after all that back-and-forth, it's going to take longer than usual to digitize, and you're going to need to test sew and make adjustments to get all those fine outlines and everything in proper registration.  More setup time than even the Asterix, and waaaaaay more than the 7800 one.  That, AND almost all shops charge per 1,000 stitches unless you're getting into huge volume.  A more more complex image with many color changes and and trims and all that is going to take longer to sew, BUT that does not necessarily bump up the stitch count.  So, an already low-margin product is now an even lower-margin one.  And now I'm tying up machines and operators on this noise instead of on bigger accounts that are more profitable.

 

So, for these reasons and others, I would simply pass on that job, even though, sure I could do it.  I assure you, I'm not close to being alone on that.  Now, yes, if you're absolutely bound and determined to get that fucking logo embroidered as a patch, you can find some sucker who will be willing to take the bath on it just to have the job, or some sweatshop that will just take your artwork and crank out a messy piece of shit for you.

 

But if you go to a decent, reputable shop who care about the integrity of your branding and all that jazz, the rep is going to strongly recommend against doing full embroidery.  The option is probably not even going to be discussed, at least with an image like that.  Again, nothing to do with one being cheaper than the other for the customer.

 

 

 

 

 

Got a Yelp review link for your business?

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 hours ago, MrTrust said:

That's why I fucking said "a little trickier" and not "impossible".  Your original contention was that printed patches aren't common, just cheaper.  A) they absolutely are common, B) they aren't necessarily cheaper, and C) the cost is not necessarily the issue.  No shit you could do it.  There are just X, Y, and Z reasons why you wouldn't that don't have anything to do with cost.

 

If a customer came to me and wanted a few hundred of that 7800 patch, giddy up.  I'll bang 'em out in an afternoon myself if need be.  If they brought me that CC artwork, I'd tell them we need to do a printed patch, and if they still insisted on embroidery, I'd either quote them some ludicrous price so they decide to go elsewhere, or just straight up say "no".  Not because it can't be done; the juuice just isn't worth the squeeze.  Just look at the embroidery somebody posted on the hat they got.  It's passable looking at it from a distance, but zoom in and look close and you can see it looks like shit. The rainbows coming out of the exhaust pipes are mostly a black, blobby mess.  The grill on the front is just a bunch of squiggles that aren't in proper registration.  They omitted the detail on the license plate and the side of the truck.  Things like that.  Now, if you don't care that it's going to look like shit, then sure, you can find a vendor who also doesn't care and will hammer the job out for you.

 

But a lot of shops do care if it looks like shit, and to make sure that it doesn't is going to take way more work than doing that ET patch.  You're going to have to explain to the customer that there need to be edits like dropping the license plate text and proof that out.  They're going to hem and haw about even the tiniest change and show you pictures of other patches they've seen which are not at all comparable in terms of complexity and say "well, this looks just like the picture".  Once you get an approval after all that back-and-forth, it's going to take longer than usual to digitize, and you're going to need to test sew and make adjustments to get all those fine outlines and everything in proper registration.  More setup time than even the Asterix, and waaaaaay more than the 7800 one.  That, AND almost all shops charge per 1,000 stitches unless you're getting into huge volume.  A more more complex image with many color changes and and trims and all that is going to take longer to sew, BUT that does not necessarily bump up the stitch count.  So, an already low-margin product is now an even lower-margin one.  And now I'm tying up machines and operators on this noise instead of on bigger accounts that are more profitable.

 

So, for these reasons and others, I would simply pass on that job, even though, sure I could do it.  I assure you, I'm not close to being alone on that.  Now, yes, if you're absolutely bound and determined to get that fucking logo embroidered as a patch, you can find some sucker who will be willing to take the bath on it just to have the job, or some sweatshop that will just take your artwork and crank out a messy piece of shit for you.

 

But if you go to a decent, reputable shop who care about the integrity of your branding and all that jazz, the rep is going to strongly recommend against doing full embroidery.  The option is probably not even going to be discussed, at least with an image like that.  Again, nothing to do with one being cheaper than the other for the customer.