How do you guys feel about recapping?

[The Usotsuki]

My attitude is, I probably wouldn't recap "just because".  But if there is a problem that is probably the fault of faulty caps, or if sick cap syndrome is known to affect it, I wouldn't necessarily leave the original caps "just because" either.  (That said, I'd have to outsource repair; I'm not a hardware person.)

[Keatah]

Re-capping is a necessary activity in vintage electronics. Things made of certain plastics and capacitors with electrolytes will degrade over time and that simply must be addressed. It's not a big deal. If authenticity is important, like I said earlier, then put the old parts in a baggie and tape it to the inside of the device or something.

 

The only practical reason to keep the old parts (or not replace them) is for photo ops and documenting revisions and manufacturing issues. That sort of thing.

 

One other thing of concern are Flash ROMs, EPROMS, and EEPROMS. Those have a short life compared to ROMs and PROMS. Charge dissipation and insulation breakdown being the culprits.

 

Now.. Silicon parts like transistors and logic/cpu chips, and resistors, and ceramic capacitors, are projected to have a life of over 100-200 years. Masked ROMS and diode arrays likely even longer, as long as the materials hold up. And recent longevity testing shows even this to be conservative.

 

[CaptainBreakout]

Agree with above.  If authenticity is a concern over the system containing toxic components that will eventually corrode and destroy the product itself, well... that's kinda like loving a museum piece that's destined to disintegrate. I guess if you can appreciate states of disintegration, then that's cool?

 

If, on the other hand, you value functionality and also value the art of preservation of functionality, then recapping is a part of the museum curator's journey to the future.

 

In other words, recapping is necessary if you want your shit to work later. (After you're dead)

 

I often wonder if a grandkid of mine decided to go through a box marked from me, and plug stuff in... will it be a disappointing or thrilling occasion?  -depends on the future-proofing state of hardware I left.

 

Dang. I need to buy a box of capacitors and a desoldering station this year.  So are the capacitors on the market currently considered future-proof?  What do I have to look for, anyone know?

[bluejay]

Simple: You recap systems when

 

A) Bad capacitors are known to be a common fault on your system (RIFA capacitors on Apples and TRS-80s, Mac SMD capacitors, you know the drill)

B) There is a visible bulge or leakage on the capacitor/motherboard.

C) You system has a fault that may be related to a bad capacitor.

 

Otherwise you leave your system alone.

[Keatah]

That's simple solid advice.

[Keatah]

I once spoke with someone that was maintaining computers for a museum and the issue of batteries came up. I was horrified to see some boards with those leaky vartabombs and even super old coin cells. They refused to change them out. They cited authenticity. And, get this, authenticity of its future destiny. They said if it's destined to corrode in that area then that is what MUST take place. We won't interrupt the aging process.

 

[carlsson]

Good thing those people didn't run a funeral service. Instead of burying people, they would advice their customers to let the corpse of the deceased family member just rot away in the garden.

 

Speaking of capacitors, there just was a discussion in the Intellivision section about the fact that some of the most recent games and flash cartridges don't boot straight away, but require a push on the reset button before they work, and sometimes pushing the reset button several times. Apparently there is an 1 uF electrolyte that is charged in the reset circuit, and if it dries out or otherwise goes bad, the system takes longer to start and misses the time to read the cartridge. The system otherwise still was "working" and the capacitor had not bulged or leaked, but by replacing the capacitor the original reset circuit function was restored so all games start right away. I've read about something similar on e.g. VIC-20, and may be a common issue that isn't as obvious since it isn't a matter of working or not working, but a matter of working as it used to or working a little less than it once did. Purists may in this case prefer to keep the system in original condition and live with the fact that some games don't work properly as long as others do.

[juansolo]

Recapping from the POV of someone who repairs vintage electronics for kicks.

 

Components have a lifespan. IC can fail, resistors can fail, regulators can fail, but most commonly electrolytic capacitors fail. They dry up or they leak as a rule, they only pop when someone put the wrong polarity or too much power into them. Their lives vary based mainly on quality and location. For example caps in areas of high temperature will not last as long as those somewhere cooler. Poor quality caps (there was a period in the 90’s where there were a LOT of bad caps about), just die after a period of time.

 

Spotting bad caps is not always easy. Bulging caps or residue around their bases are a sign and if you see either you should deal with it immediately. Leaking caps are a menace, if you have an Amiga 600/1200/3000 or a PC Engine Duo with surface mount capacitors, they are legendary for leaking and it will eat the traces of your board when it does. There are some caps in the BBC Micro PSU made by RIFA that are notorious for cracking with age, so when you pull it down from your loft and power it up, it destroys the machine.

 

Drifting caps happens. As they get older their capacitance changes which can cause all sorts of issues. We had a Saturn that was being really odd reading discs, that turned out to be caps going bad that no longer read anywhere near what they were supposed to. Likewise a Sony BVM, after an extensive recap (like 300 of the buggers) it utterly revitalised the 40 year old display.

 

Is recapping necessary? If you’ve not got any problems and there’s no signs of leakage or failures, no. The thing is, it doesn’t hurt, and if you’re in there anyhow, I think it’s worth doing.

 

If you're worried about keeping things original, just think of is as a service on a vintage car. No old car has it's original spark plugs in them, because they wear out. Caps are no different. If you want it to look nice in a museum and never be driven, leave em in there, however if you want to enjoy driving it, servicing is just something that happens.

Edited March 11, 2021 by juansolo

[carlsson]

Regarding the plague, I saw a reference to "use of a stolen recipe but without certain stabilizing substances leading to premature failure". Wikipedia writes about this too, based on an article in The Independent 2003 how a scientist at Rubycon Corporation in Japan stole a formula for electrolytic capacitors in 2001, but miscopied it. He brought the formula to China, where it again was copied and distributed to Taiwan where they manufactured capacitors using the faulty formula. That sounds like something out of James Bond, but goes to show that this is high tech.

 

The first patent for an electrolyte capacitor was in 1897 and those began to be used in the 1920's, though with a short lifespan. Of course development has taken place ever since, but I would imagine it is possible that in the hunt for the perfect formula in combination with cutting costs, the electrolytes manufactured in the 1980s may have been more stable over the years (but cost more to make) than later on, and this plague situation using incorrect formulas which surely cut costs even more, put us all in misery. Unfortunately it is very rare to have something that is both cheap and good, usually you have to choose either and for products really intended to be used for perhaps 5 years it seems many manufacturers went with cheap in order to be competitive on price.

[youxia]

If it's a museum, they might have a point. Although they should strive to find another unit and keep it operational. Though, then it becomes the question of how much repairs is too much. If your main chip dies, and you replace it with a FPGA or some such, is it still the same computer (from a historical POV).

[The Usotsuki]

2 hours ago, bluejay said:

Simple: You recap systems when

 

A) Bad capacitors are known to be a common fault on your system (RIFA capacitors on Apples and TRS-80s, Mac SMD capacitors, you know the drill)

B) There is a visible bulge or leakage on the capacitor/motherboard.

C) You system has a fault that may be related to a bad capacitor.

 

Otherwise you leave your system alone.

QFT.

 

Heck, I can imagine some people would be opposed to replacing Dallas chips (which I'm pretty sure aren't going to spew caustic glop all over the mobo when they fail - you'd be daft NOT to replace hardware that was prone to that, like the aforementioned Varta batteries), but I did so on one of my computers.

[carlsson]

Yeah, traditional museums rarely strive after showcasing their objects in perfect condition, but rather the state after having been used. However what you can't see from the outside, you don't know about so a museum which wants to have something running probably services it accordingly. A museum that only displays items for what they once were with no intention to ever use it again may leave it in original condition, not so much for accuracy as for reducing the workload and expenses of having the museum running.

 

A private collector usually has completely other motivations than a museum. I know many collectors are dreaming about turning their collection into a museum, but what they really want is a place to showcase their perfect collection for interested people, and perhaps make tax deductions for it. That is rather different from how the majority of real museums operate, selecting a few of the most common items for an era and telling a story through those. Even an art museum doesn't strive to have one of every Picasso painting even if they could afford it, unless of course it is the official Picasso museum.

[Keatah]

14 minutes ago, youxia said:

If it's a museum, they might have a point. Although they should strive to find another unit and keep it operational. Though, then it becomes the question of how much repairs is too much. If your main chip dies, and you replace it with a FPGA or some such, is it still the same computer (from a historical POV).

I suppose it would depend on the intended mode of demonstration. If you're demonstrating how a motherboard layout looked when it rolled off the assembly line. Then nothing but 100% authentic (or authentic-looking) parts would do. They may not have to work. But they better look 100% real down to the shape of the solder and glossy markings or laser-etched markings on the chips.

 

If you are preserving and demonstrating the functionality of a device, then it may not matter what it looks like on the inside. As long as it functions like the original and conveys the meaning and aura then FPGA could replace some parts.

 

I consider my emulation rig in the latter category. An Intel NUC or Shuttle XPC certainly don't look like a VCS on the inside. But they play VCS games reasonably well. Perhaps well enough to illustrate what it was like to be playing in 1977. Granted the boxes, cartridges, and maybe the same controllers aren't there. Neither is the experience of inserting a cart and reading the instructions identical. Also missing is the sound of the silver slide switches. But the essence of the game is there. And in that way it's definitely more than passable.

 

[Keatah]

3 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Yeah, traditional museums rarely strive after showcasing their objects in perfect condition, but rather the state after having been used. However what you can't see from the outside, you don't know about so a museum which wants to have something running probably services it accordingly. A museum that only displays items for what they once were with no intention to ever use it again may leave it in original condition, not so much for accuracy as for reducing the workload and expenses of having the museum running.

Reminds me of fighter jets and special planes like the SR-71. They look flightworthy in the museum. But under the skin they've been irreparably chopped and sliced. The main structural parts, no matter how repaired, outside of prohibitively expensive total replacement, would never be able to bear the same stresses and loads.

 

I'm fairly certain the remaining space shuttles had their real engines removed prior to display. So as to recover the hardware for use in the disposable SLS.

 

3 minutes ago, carlsson said:

A private collector usually has completely other motivations than a museum. I know many collectors are dreaming about turning their collection into a museum, but what they really want is a place to showcase their perfect collection for interested people, and perhaps make tax deductions for it.

Yes. I had lovely delusions of grandeur about having Jobs and Woz visit my awesome Apple II collection years ago! Had a whole shelf of games and boxes of hardware and spare parts for the future. I don't think any of them gave a shit..

 

3 minutes ago, carlsson said:

That is rather different from how the majority of real museums operate, selecting a few of the most common items for an era and telling a story through those. Even an art museum doesn't strive to have one of every Picasso painting even if they could afford it, unless of course it is the official Picasso museum.

I like telling the story of classic games through document scans, images, photos, and hands-on play via emulation. It can be done at a pace works for everyone.

[carlsson]

A bit off the topic, but there was a museum over here which displayed a Cray including the sofa for people to sit on. It was not complete to begin with, so obviously not plugged in. Over the years it seemed to deteriorate more and more and by now I think the remaining carcass of a super computer was removed from the exhibition. In that case, no amount of recap would have improved the state. On the other hand I know other museums that every now and then run computers from the late 60's. They probably have fixed all issues over the years to make them operational but within limits of what is time correct. That is of course a matter, if you have older gear with a type of capacitors no longer made, whether it is material, capacity, properties, size or orientation. It would even make me hesitant if the caps should be replaced if you can't get matching ones. For most systems from the early 80's and onwards though, I think footprint and values have stabilized so you are less likely to end up in a situation where no perfect replacement is available.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I didn't mention this myself but another did. I actually put all the caps I remove from a client's console into a baggy and ship it back with the system so the client can decide if they want to keep the old caps with it for preservation/history reasons. Most of my clients likely toss them away, but I do include them along with any other parts I've removed or replaced when servicing. 

 

I haven't done that on my own, but I could see why someone would.

[juansolo]

47 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I didn't mention this myself but another did. I actually put all the caps I remove from a client's console into a baggy and ship it back with the system so the client can decide if they want to keep the old caps with it for preservation/history reasons. Most of my clients likely toss them away, but I do include them along with any other parts I've removed or replaced when servicing. 

 

I haven't done that on my own, but I could see why someone would.

I do usually do the same. I'm not sure why to be honest...

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 minute ago, juansolo said:

I do usually do the same. I'm not sure why to be honest...

I just meant that I don't care to keep that stuff when I remove it from my own personal systems. But my clients might want it as I have had a few thank me for doing that and state they keep the bag of removed parts elsewhere to keep with the console in the future. So there are some people that appreciate that.

 

[juansolo]

6 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I just meant that I don't care to keep that stuff when I remove it from my own personal systems. But my clients might want it as I have had a few thank me for doing that and state they keep the bag of removed parts elsewhere to keep with the console in the future. So there are some people that appreciate that.

It's more a little bag of 'here's what I swapped' when I do it usually I'm really not precious about my own machines. To be fair, I think preservationists would hate some of the stuff I do... Take one of my old 7800s for example, this was the original complete basket case machine I bought for buttons. It was rusty to a degree that the original shield was unsavable (it's got one from my main 7800, I don't keep them on my keepers because I screw around with them a lot and they annoy me). But the rust had leeched into the PCB taking out all the buttons, the joystick ports and the difficulty switches. It took quite a bit to bring it back from the dead. Parts were sourced from a spares 2600 Jr for the switches and joystick ports, the buttons you can buy better ones now that aren't complete pants.

 

Anyhow, it's had a astounding amount of work done on it and it's far from original now. Indeed I've 'welded' in a bit of plastic from a dead Activision Frostbite cart into the switch hole so I can drill it for a 3.5mm jack and it's running a nice DC jack now which involved some case modding to get in there but works surprisingly well. It'll never be a looker, but it's not dead...

Edited March 11, 2021 by juansolo

[carlsson]

Well, if it was completely dead, rusted and so on it hardly was a candidate for immaculate preservation anyway. If someone feels it is the wrong thing to do to restore and improve it, they really don't have all their horses in the stable.

 

Since I'm an amateur saxophonist, it reminds me about wind instruments. I can't recall ever hearing about someone who owns a vintage sax of a good brand (Selmer, Conn etc) who rather would let it deteriorate in original condition than service it regularly to be in a nice and playable condition. Certainly you want proper pads custom made according to original specs, not replace with just any pads from the Far East. You want the rods straightened, the levers cleaned and oiled in, the corks replaced, though perhaps leave the patina on the body. Some would go as far as "modding" the horn with rolling the tone holes so they are better in tune and resonate better. A professionally restored 1960's sax of a popular model (e.g. Selmer Mark VI) is desired. Sure, a worn out Mark VI would as well to a lesser degree but likely the new owner would want to see if it could be restored. When it comes to cheaper saxes like a student Yamaha YAS-23 (the C64C or 2600JR of the saxophone world), those are so abundant that there is market for experimentation with all sorts of pads and resonators, bodywork modifications etc. Again a worn student horn perhaps is $150-200 (*) and I'm sure a refurbished one is the double or triple.

 

(*) In particular now in later years when the Chinese have improved their manufacturing so you can get a brand new student sax for not that much more, and it really holds up for a couple of years compared to the crap quality they had only 10 years ago.

[emerson]

I found this video a while back demonstrating how to test film capacitors to decrease noise interference while in circuit. I recently used the information on my Eico 232 and Sencore TC162 rebuilds. Not likely applicable to vintage consoles but useful information none the less. Hopefully others find this useful as well.

 

The test procedure starts around 8:06 but I encourage you to watch the introduction as well.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR_DLd1PDI

[IMBerzerk]

I'll use this analogy which is truly how I feel.

 

Recap.  This is like owning a vintage car.  I do, and I bought it from someone that took care of it, and tried to preserve every aspect of it...HOWEVER... in doing so, nearly destroyed the car. I am an aircraft mechanic by trade, so I take OCD about maintenance to another level.

 

The ignition wires were still original, they snapped in my hands as I went to inspect the plugs to check them.  The distributor was never removed to maintain, and lubricate because he was afraid to disturb it.  The Carb was original so it was never adjusted for age, and changing it to modern gas... All the steering components and everything about the car was ALL original from 1965.  But.. how does that makes sense.  It didn't run right, power was sluggish, steering was loose, brakes not tight, ignition not advancing as it should...carb running too rich...on and on.

 

I fixed it all, painted it all replaced parts that were not installed over the years by mechanics that just kept it running. 

 

Now it's OEM, it's all back to factory...runs like a top and reliable.  All modernized with modern electrical systems installed...but looks original.  Why mention all this ..

 

Because sometimes to keep things as they were you need to drop the mindset that they were better back then then they are today.  Recapping will prolong the life and get it back to working as it should.  Maintenance always makes components live longer so you can enjoy them longer.   Keep these old systems running as they should by keeping them maintained.  It doesn't devalue them... Whoever thinks that doesn't understand the thought process of prolonging the life.  What's the point of having something sitting on a shelf when you can't use it??

 

Keep the old parts in a bag if you must.  If that's really necessary.  It's your unit, if you're a player and enjoy the real fun of ownership, you'll have no issue recapping for the benefit of always having your original system to love and enjoy whenever you're around.  If you're a collector and just want to know it's an "unmolested" pure system so you can say that, then steer clear of recapping and leave it on a shelf.  Buy a junk unit to play with and sleep better knowing your original unit will always be that... original.

 

But again...to keep these things alive and working into the years ahead.  Sometimes you just have to do what's required to allow that to happen.  

 

Once you change the oil in a motor and burn the original gas in the tank,  you no longer have the original oil, filter or fuel...it will never be original again.  So why argue the point. 

 

I hope that helps a little.  Lol.

[jhd]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:30 AM, Keatah said:

And, get this, authenticity of its future destiny. They said if it's destined to corrode in that area then that is what MUST take place. We won't interrupt the aging process.

 

This very same argument arises about some Aboriginal (i.e. Native American) artifacts.

 

Totem poles, for example, were intended to have a finite life and then decay back into nature. Traditionally, no efforts were made to preserve or repair them.  

 

Modern preservation and curation activities that preserve these artifacts are therefore contrary to the original intended purpose. 

 

I am not taking a position about which approach is "better", but I wanted to point out that these same debates occur in contexts other than vintage electronics.  

[jhd]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:51 AM, carlsson said:

Good thing those people didn't run a funeral service. Instead of burying people, they would advice their customers to let the corpse of the deceased family member just rot away in the garden.

 

In some places that is an actual option -- the deceased's remains are neither embalmed not placed in a coffin; they are just buried in a sheet so as to expidite the body's return to nature. No monument is erected. It is a more "enviromentally friendly" way to go. Public health regulations generally preclude just leaving a body in the back garden, so there are still designated cemeteries/burial grounds for this purpose. 

[carlsson]

Interesting comparison with totem poles that were only intended to last for so long before they decompose. Strictly speaking, our old video games and computers pretty much also were built to last perhaps 5-10 years so if we want to follow the manufacturer's will, we should let those systems degrade both on the inside and outside. Now I wouldn't want to equate the products manufactured by Atari, Commodore or Apple with symbols of worship put up by Native Americans, in particular as the item no longer is owned and used by its creator. It is like you walked by a settlement and saw the locals about to upgrade to a new totem pole and you asked if you could have the old one before it rotted away. Once it is yours, you probably would want to restore it.