Why can't you purchase roms for new games??

[+Gemintronic]

9 minutes ago, youxia said:

Also, piracy is nothing like it was in the past. Sure, some people would still do that, though that could be those who won't buy anyway, and I'm convinced the majority would make a purchase. We're mostly old farts with some income, not broke-ass teens like back in the day.

 

There are people who take pirating very seriously. Also, repro makers who think less than zero about a developers effort: they think they are performing some sort of justice by selling others work.

 

Even this month I've had people contact me trying to get digital copies of small, limited release titles.  These aren't normal retro enthusiasts.  These are people who want their "crew" to be the first with the most r4r3 releases.

 

From there unaware people buy eBay repros and wander random download sites to find games never meant to be published in such a way.

[youxia]

Fair enough, but if they're so desperate they could probably buy the cart and dump the rom as well.

 

Maybe make a staggered release: first the cart, few months later digital?

[+MrZarniwoop]

54 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

IMO, who is here for the money is wasting his time.

100% agree. I can't imagine you can make a living doing this, which is what makes learning about Audacity Games interesting.

 

But some reward to cover some of the costs can make it easier to keep the community going (like this site) and encourage innovation (Galagon, AtariVox, Harmony, etc.).

[Keatah]

 

..and digital hoarders hate collections because of the sprawling mess a physical collection can become.

 

2 hours ago, zzip said:

Collectors hate digital because you typically don't get the physical goods,  but I often wonder why it has to be either/or.   I'm sure there are some people who both want the freedom of digital AND something to display on their shelf

There are! Made several 3-ring binders dedicated to certain favorite programs and program groups. Something that looks nice on a shelf. Something to go through the ritual of inserting a cartridge-like box into a machine. Something to provide physicality. And real printed-on-paper manuals & reference cards.

 

As for which way it has to be. Well. That doesn't matter! It can be any damned well way you desire.

[hizzy]

Maybe it is time for NFT roms?

[Jstick]

The answer to this is obvious:

 

2600 games with free-to-play game mechanics and requiring an always-on internet connection.  Register with your credit card, and then press the select button to add more virtual currency. 

 

(In addition, a special ad screen kernel that triggers after every reset)

[+Gemintronic]

I wouldn't mind a PaperCart that actually loads the ROM into your real 2600.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6jVk7t4i4

 

Digital download would be taking a photo of a QR code.

 

Or, even neater: buying a pack of trading cards with games on them

[PaultheRoman]

If money is an issue, because I see here people worrying that ROM purchases would kill carts, just make the ROM cost the same as the physical counterpart, that way the option exists. As long as my living space doesn't get cluttered with things I don't want, I'm down with paying a pretty sizable amount, I just want the option.

[Keatah]

As alluded to earlier we're big boys now and don't furiously pirate stuff like we did after school and all that. Besides there's a ton of stuff out there, several lifetimes in fact, to enjoy. So if something isn't made easily available most of us just forget about it an play something that is.

 

As far as all this online cartridge stuff, and NFT, and Q-Code paper cartridges goes, it's interesting. Even amusing. But I don't think it catches my fancy. Despite all the cleverness and futurism surrounding it all it seems meh. It certainly doesn't ignite my imagination like the original hardware did back in the day.

 

I do enjoy the Harmony/ARM games though. It *IS* something I imagined back in the day. An "intelligent" ROM that could change its data output in realtime. To conduct and orchestrate the VCS internals in far more complex ways than a standard static program in a ROM could ever hope. Didn't know what to call it back then or explain it much beyond what I just said.

 

Harmony/ARM has been around long enough now to consider it a true upgrade to the VCS. It's part of the 2600 infrastructure. And I don't see it as an accelerator (70MHz) at all.

 

So. I'm going to play VCS either on original hardware or through simulation of that hardware via Stella.

[youxia]

9 hours ago, PaultheRoman said:

If money is an issue, because I see here people worrying that ROM purchases would kill carts, just make the ROM cost the same as the physical counterpart, that way the option exists. As long as my living space doesn't get cluttered with things I don't want, I'm down with paying a pretty sizable amount, I just want the option.

Don't think it's a good idea. Carts are physical objects you can resell, digital download, not so much. The higher price is also justified by the manufacturing adn design costs.

[WishItWas1984]

A lot of interesting opinions, but the facts are that not selling digital-only releases is poor business, leaves money on the table for developers, and does not significantly affect physical sales.

 

I bought multiple C64 ROMs recently on itch.io. I have dozens of non-DRM vintage PC games from GOG. I want to buy some 2600 homebrews, but can't. There is a segment of retro gamers that do not collect or want to pay the premium for physical releases. If someone only wants a ROM for Stella for the PC or R77, the odds are insanely slim they're willing to spring for a $30-50+ cart just to get a free digital copy. In turn, the odds are insanely low for collectors and physical-only gamers to resort to a digital ROM when a cart is available.

 

When it comes to piracy, that's not a valid argument and hasn't been for decades. No one needs to explain how games and software are pirated regardless of it being locked in a cartridge or behind some kind of DRM.

[Spectreman]

Of course the rom will be pirated. But this will change the sales for collector who buy because the physical cartridge? Maybe in part, yes. But the downside is that a lot of cool new 2600 games and they are restrict to youtube videos for most people, rather than creating a bigger audience. And for overseas the cost a physical purchase is much higher.

[+Andrew Davie]

There's another side to this. Many developers release in-progress binaries of their games. Though, it does seem that this trend is starting to become less common. The physical cartridge was how those developers saw at least some reward/compensation for their efforts - even though not very much. If you start releasing digital copies for sale, then in my view this reduces the incentive for developers to engage with the community and release "as it happened" progress versions. Yes, there could be released versions and a final "better" version, but in any case I think the digital copies would change the playing field, so to speak.

Personally I have little/no interest in releasing digital copies for sale, unless perhaps with NFT as an "artwork" thing.

 

[mr_me]

3 hours ago, WishItWas1984 said:

A lot of interesting opinions, but the facts are that not selling digital-only releases is poor business, leaves money on the table for developers, and does not significantly affect physical sales.

 

I bought multiple C64 ROMs recently on itch.io. I have dozens of non-DRM vintage PC games from GOG. I want to buy some 2600 homebrews, but can't. There is a segment of retro gamers that do not collect or want to pay the premium for physical releases. If someone only wants a ROM for Stella for the PC or R77, the odds are insanely slim they're willing to spring for a $30-50+ cart just to get a free digital copy. In turn, the odds are insanely low for collectors and physical-only gamers to resort to a digital ROM when a cart is available.

 

When it comes to piracy, that's not a valid argument and hasn't been for decades. No one needs to explain how games and software are pirated regardless of it being locked in a cartridge or behind some kind of DRM.

Not selling digital rom files definitely increases the sales of cartridges.  Yes, some will pass on buying anything, but a significant number of people who would have otherwise purchased a digital rom file only have no choice but to buy the cartridge.  A sale is a sale, what difference does it make if it's a digital rom file or cartridge.  If cartridges are made on demand, it shouldn't make a difference.  But if there are significant fixed costs such as printing boxes/instructions, then selling those extra cartridges to those who would otherwise buy a rom file only could help the project break even.

[+MrZarniwoop]

The folks at Audacity Games hinted at trying to run this as a proper business, albeit a side hustle rather than making a living at the start. They're clearly experimenting and seeing what works.

 

They're starting with an initial limited collector cartridge release, followed by something more general when the limited quantities sell out, and speculated about ultimately digital distribution perhaps via Steam even part a bundle of digital ROMs. And soon they'll have multiple titles in different stages of a product lifecycle.

 

This type of distribution process isn't that different from other industries, from movies starting in theaters first, OnDemand rental and airplanes next, then digital purchases, subscription services, and finally shown on ad-supported networks. Business build on content often try to recoup their investment with those willing to pay higher prices for earlier access but dropping price at different steps as the product lifecycle runs, until ultimately ending up in a back-catalog that gets marketed with promotions now and then to drive sales bumps. If you do enough of it to get good at producing and distributing, with a hit now and then to drive the front end revenue to balance out duds, it's entirely possible to imagine a business here, especially as they figure out ways for more people to play the games via other platforms or emulators.

[WishItWas1984]

4 hours ago, mr_me said:

Not selling digital rom files definitely increases the sales of cartridges.  Yes, some will pass on buying anything, but a significant number of people who would have otherwise purchased a digital rom file only have no choice but to buy the cartridge.  A sale is a sale, what difference does it make if it's a digital rom file or cartridge.  If cartridges are made on demand, it shouldn't make a difference.  But if there are significant fixed costs such as printing boxes/instructions, then selling those extra cartridges to those who would otherwise buy a rom file only could help the project break even.

 

At the end of the day it's all unprovable opinion, but I believe my opinion is based a lot more in reality.

 

Cartridge sales for retro games are by and large purchased by those with real systems and collectors. There is a segment of the community that only use emulation. These people, lik me for the 2600, have literally zero interest in buying a cartridge. Even if I'll never be able to get a ROM and play a homebrew game because of it, I still am not going to shell out that much for a cart. 

 

So that is definitely money they are not making. Just look at the sale of modern digital games vs. boxed copies. Digital has utterly destroyed the boxed PC game market and is slowly but surely working towards ending physical console sales. It's more convenient for many, and it saves customers money while still keeping the same profit margins for devs. It's a win-win outside of anyone in the supply chain of the old boxes.

 

Anecdotal as it might be, modern gaming and places like GOG and Itch.io show that there is a significant market for retro digital sales. Which is evidence that the odds are higher that any lost 2600 cart sales to ROMs, would be far outweighed by overall ROM sales.

 

[WishItWas1984]

5 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

There's another side to this. Many developers release in-progress binaries of their games. Though, it does seem that this trend is starting to become less common. The physical cartridge was how those developers saw at least some reward/compensation for their efforts - even though not very much. If you start releasing digital copies for sale, then in my view this reduces the incentive for developers to engage with the community and release "as it happened" progress versions. Yes, there could be released versions and a final "better" version, but in any case I think the digital copies would change the playing field, so to speak.

Personally I have little/no interest in releasing digital copies for sale, unless perhaps with NFT as an "artwork" thing.

 

 

I don't logically see how the medium of a game sale would in any way affect a dev from engaging in "in progress" game discussion or beta releases. They literally have nothing to do with each other. 

 

I can see why creators would be interested in NFT, but vs digital sales for such a niche market as Atari 2600 homebrew sales, it's rather pointless.

[youxia]

30 minutes ago, WishItWas1984 said:

Anecdotal as it might be, modern gaming and places like GOG and Itch.io show that there is a significant market for retro digital sales. Which is evidence that the odds are higher that any lost 2600 cart sales to ROMs, would be far outweighed by overall ROM sales.

Gog is a totally different market (PCs were uber popular and are a rather "young" retro), 8-bit micros are a bit more similar, and that's what I mentioned in my earlier post. Going with my "common sense" feel and examples from other platforms I generally agree that digital sales could possibly be a significant revenue stream (especially if you release the digital ROM months after the cart). But maybe consoles really are a different kettle of fish (eg I don't think there are any digital sales for the likes of Megadrive). I think devs in this thread mentioned not making much from digital, so I don't really know. It'll be interesting to see how it goes if Albert enables this for AtariAge shop.

Edited March 14, 2021 by youxia

[mr_me]

38 minutes ago, WishItWas1984 said:

 

At the end of the day it's all unprovable opinion, but I believe my opinion is based a lot more in reality.

 

Cartridge sales for retro games are by and large purchased by those with real systems and collectors. There is a segment of the community that only use emulation. These people, lik me for the 2600, have literally zero interest in buying a cartridge. Even if I'll never be able to get a ROM and play a homebrew game because of it, I still am not going to shell out that much for a cart. 

 

So that is definitely money they are not making. Just look at the sale of modern digital games vs. boxed copies. Digital has utterly destroyed the boxed PC game market and is slowly but surely working towards ending physical console sales. It's more convenient for many, and it saves customers money while still keeping the same profit margins for devs. It's a win-win outside of anyone in the supply chain of the old boxes.

 

Anecdotal as it might be, modern gaming and places like GOG and Itch.io show that there is a significant market for retro digital sales. Which is evidence that the odds are higher that any lost 2600 cart sales to ROMs, would be far outweighed by overall ROM sales.

 

I don't think there's any question that having digital sales would means more total sales.  What I'm saying is that not having digital sales helps sell more cartridges.  A lot of people with consoles also have flash multi-carts, and many of those just want to play the game and would rather not pay extra for cartridges, packaging, and shipping.  By not having digital sales some of those might pass on the game while others will pay extra for the cartridge and therefore more cartridge sales but not necessarily more total sales.  The person producing the cartridges/packaging/instructions is most interesting in recovering their investment as quickly as possible so every additional cartridge sale helps.

[neotokeo2001]

People don't actually buy BIN/ROMS when they are made available. If there was interest in it then it would be done. Maybe AtariAge will have better luck with it if they decide to do it. When you keep saying the same thing over and over it doesn't make it true. I am sure there would be some sales of a title like Circus Convoy because of the uniqueness of what it is. This has been brought up every few years and still nothing.

[youxia]

11 minutes ago, mr_me said:

What I'm saying is that not having digital sales helps sell more cartridges

Well, obviously, but you might be losing on lost sales from digital. So maybe 100 people more will buy the cartridge but 500 won't buy the digital.

[youxia]

6 minutes ago, neotokeo2001 said:

People don't actually buy BIN/ROMS when they are made available. If there was interest in it then it would be done.

Could you give some examples? I'm not trying to argue, just curious. The 8-bit microcomputer scene is just so different, so I wonder why. Perhaps that's how it was in the past, but times are changing in the retro world too.

[neotokeo2001]

7 minutes ago, youxia said:

Could you give some examples? I'm not trying to argue, just curious. The 8-bit microcomputer scene is just so different, so I wonder why. Perhaps that's how it was in the past, but times are changing in the retro world too.

https://theloon.itch.io/upp

https://robsomestudios.itch.io/baby

https://denebola-interactive.itch.io/kelly-kangaroo

Many more on that site.

 

I have released over 50 Atari 2600 Limited Editions and have been asked to make the BIN/ROM available to buy. I have tried it three times at a $5 price point and sold 1,3,2. I also have a group of people that want cartridge and manual only over the boxed editions and due to the number of people asking you think it would be a lot, I usually sell 10 cartridge and manual only. The Limited editions are anywhere from 30 to 75 copies and then I move on to the next release. A couple of really popular games are sold by AtariAge, Spies in the Night, Wolfenstein VCS:The Next Mission and Melbourne Tatty being examples. Most of the BIN/ROMS for these games are released in a not quite final stage with the final version not being released.

 

 

[WishItWas1984]

1 hour ago, youxia said:

Gog is a totally different market (PCs were uber popular and are a rather "young" retro), 8-bit micros are a bit more similar, and that's what I mentioned in my earlier post. Going with my "common sense" feel and examples from other platforms I generally agree that digital sales could possibly be a significant revenue stream (especially if you release the digital ROM months after the cart). But maybe consoles really are a different kettle of fish (eg I don't think there are any digital sales for the likes of Megadrive). I think devs in this thread mentioned not making much from digital, so I don't really know. It'll be interesting to see how it goes if Albert enables this for AtariAge shop.

GOG is an accurate comparison to homebrew retro gaming in terms of this topic. It offers DRM-free retro games for sale digitally.

 

When I say console sales, I mean modern consoles. My point being, that digital sales from retro-to-modern, are common place. Albeit less DRM-free for modern, but again my point was that digital shouldn't be ignored as a revenue stream.

 

If some developers say they don't make as much from digital than from carts, then they are not properly pricing their products. It has nothing to do with the medium it's sold in.

 

Now, if developers are saying they don't see the same amount of sales, that's not an argument for not selling digitally either as the overhead is nearly non-existent.

[+Ryan Witmer]

My three (soon to be four) 5200 games all have publicly available ROMs, and are also fully open-sourced under GPL3.  I find the idea of charging for a 32KB ROM file utterly absurd and would never engage in it.

 

Maybe it's because the 5200 is a much smaller niche, but I get people pledging cartridge purchases of my games pretty much right after I announce them.  They don't have to do that, but they do.  People who buy the cartridges are, in my opinion, not actually interested in the game.  They want the physical objects.  They want to experience that feeling of getting a new Atari game, ROM files don't give you that.  People who want to use ROM files and people who want cartridges are not necessarily the same market.

 

I also want people to be able to try my games before committing to what is actually a fairly major purchase.  Download the ROM, try it out, if you don't like it I don't want your money.  It's not like the old days when you could see the cool new game at your friend's house before you bought it for yourself.  Sure, we have YouTube and stuff like that, but that's no substitute for getting to try before you buy.