Why can't you purchase roms for new games??

[Mr SQL]

32 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

Or, you see some Polish 8-Bit homebrew talked about, and you go looking for the ROM and find that the usual places don't have it, and if it's not there, realistically, where would you even begin to look?

In Gdansk literally      

 

[youxia]

18 minutes ago, zzip said:

GoG is taking old PC games, removing any copy protection/DRM/dependancy on physical media and repackaging them to run on modern systems, and selling it for a low price (these games are well beyond their product lifespan)

 

I would love to see that model applied to other retro systems, Amiga, ST, C64, consoles, etc  right now you can only buy old games for those systems in collections if at all, and those collections tend to focus on the same set of games and ignore many other.

Sigh I know what gog does, seein' as I have a few hundred games there, and been collecting abandonware well before they even had an inkling of the idea to sell it. By the way, the "low price" is a bit questionable these days, since they often ask ridiculous ones, and buying there only really makes sense when there is a sale about.

 

That model is already applied to other retro systems: there are dedicated shops (eg for Amiga) which sell individual digital downloads. Most of the other trade goes through Itch.io. For some reason the digital sales are much more popular when it comes to microcomputers though,  hence my interest in this thread. Clearly console and micro are a bit different markets.

 

It is possible that it would change a bit if there was one big shop selling all retro stuff, but it's 2021 and there still isn't one, which is an indication that these markets are simply not large enough to warrant an investment, or perhaps there are other problems.

[zzip]

Just now, youxia said:

Sigh I know what gog does, seein' as I have a few hundred games there, and been collecting abandonware well before they even had an inkling of the idea to sell it. By the way, the "low price" is a bit questionable these days, since they often ask ridiculous ones, and buying there only really makes sense when there is a sale about.

I might be taking advantage of the sales,  but usually the games I see are less than $10,  often less than $5

 

Just now, youxia said:

That model is already applied to other retro systems: there are dedicated shops (eg for Amiga) which sell individual digital downloads. Most of the other trade goes through Itch.io. For some reason the digital sales are much more popular when it comes to microcomputers though,  hence my interest in this thread. Clearly console and micro are a bit different markets.

They don't have the visibility of GoG.  I've been hearing about itch.io a lot lately,  but I never even heard of the site until recently.   And when I go there and try to browse for games,  they only list modern systems, you have to do extra work to find retro stuff.

 

It's a start and hopefully it improves!

[+KaeruYojimbo]

13 hours ago, WishItWas1984 said:

"Hypothetically speaking, let's pretend..." That part of my comment is something I think you missed. lol

 

I wasn't giving literal values. It was an example to prove a point that was brought up at somewhere in this thread regarding the notion that they don't sell well enough to bother. There was no context, so I was speculating that perhaps they mean it doesn't make enough money, which could be because it's not priced correctly.

 

I agree that you wouldn't see "massive sales" either, whatever number constitutes "massive". That's beside the point though.

True. Even as I was typing it I knew massive wasn't the right word to use. I meant massive in relation to Atari 2600 homebrew sales, not necessarily massive in general. Pricing something like this properly is tricky. You want to charge enough to make it worthwhile for you, but not so much that no one is willing to pay it. For a lot of homebrews, that price point simply may not exist. Things might very well change if AtariAge is able to set up a one stop shop location that is easy for customers to find and automates a lot of the process.

 

I think one point you may be missing (or at least, I don't think you've acknowledged), and one part of why selling ROMs "isn't worth it" to many homebrewers is that for them it's about having fun creating something and sharing it with a community. It's a hobby. For people like that, it's far easier to just post a ROM here for people to download for free and enjoy than it is to set up and manage selling the ROM to make a few extra bucks.

[hizzy]

Sell an NFT of a ROM for the collector crowd. People are paying thousands for JPEGs. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/tech/nft-art-buying/index.html

 

I would pay $$$ for a one-of-a-kind rom. The gameplay could be the same as a version given away for free. I'd pay 1000.00 USD for a ROM of a game as long there is something encoded into it to differentiate it from the free version.  The collector in me wants something unique. 

 

Someone spent 600 grand on a JPEG of Nyan Nyan cat. 

[+KaeruYojimbo]

11 minutes ago, hizzy said:

I would pay $$$ for a one-of-a-kind rom. The gameplay could be the same as a version given away for free. I'd pay 1000.00 USD for a ROM of a game as long there is something encoded into it to differentiate it from the free version.  The collector in me wants something unique. 

So if I make a version of Ms. Galactopus with a green bow instead of a red one, you'll give me a grand for it? ?

[hizzy]

7 minutes ago, KaeruYojimbo said:

So if I make a version of Ms. Galactopus with a green bow instead of a red one, you'll give me a grand for it? ?

It has to be encoded with a serial number and sold on an NFT purchasing site with Ethereum blockchain. Then we could talk. Check this out: https://opensea.io/collection/cryptopunks

 

Have people seen crypto punks?

 

https://www.larvalabs.com/cryptopunks

 

Cyber Kong is available for almost 8 grand.

 

https://opensea.io/assets/0x495f947276749ce646f68ac8c248420045cb7b5e/73424079983647210902572285069973579475843508985221180214989722751360590413825

 

Cryptopacman is available for 180.00

 

https://opensea.io/assets/0x495f947276749ce646f68ac8c248420045cb7b5e/10743777402106773030368817456720297121761225507412828130218379661534916771841

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by hizzy

[Mockduck]

The advantage of an NFT rom would be the blockchain ownership record of it. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

39 minutes ago, hizzy said:

I would pay $$$ for a one-of-a-kind rom. The gameplay could be the same as a version given away for free.

One could easily make every ROM unique by watermarking it. But IMO that should not increase its value.

[+Andrew Davie]

23 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

The advantage of an NFT rom would be the blockchain ownership record of it. 

This has me interested in giving it a go, and wondering what I could possibly do/make that would be worth releasing "as" a NFT object.

 

[hizzy]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

This has me interested in giving it a go, and wondering what I could possibly do/make that would be worth releasing "as" a NFT object.

 

I'm a fan of your games. A new Andrew Davie game would be a treat!

[WishItWas1984]

1 hour ago, KaeruYojimbo said:

True. Even as I was typing it I knew massive wasn't the right word to use. I meant massive in relation to Atari 2600 homebrew sales, not necessarily massive in general. Pricing something like this properly is tricky. You want to charge enough to make it worthwhile for you, but not so much that no one is willing to pay it. For a lot of homebrews, that price point simply may not exist. Things might very well change if AtariAge is able to set up a one stop shop location that is easy for customers to find and automates a lot of the process.

 

I think one point you may be missing (or at least, I don't think you've acknowledged), and one part of why selling ROMs "isn't worth it" to many homebrewers is that for them it's about having fun creating something and sharing it with a community. It's a hobby. For people like that, it's far easier to just post a ROM here for people to download for free and enjoy than it is to set up and manage selling the ROM to make a few extra bucks.

True, the profit margin in a cart sale might be inflated way beyond what a digital sale could sustain because the extras and "deluxe" nature of it imports enough perceived value to get people on the hook. However, and this is something a lot are missing, is that the idea of it not being worth their time is nearly a non-existent issue. You don't need to create a digital storefront and payment processing services to sell a digital file. There's a bunch of different ways to grassroots the whole process and make it simple and easy. Especially if it's one guy who doesn't want to put much effort into it.

 

Regarding your second point of it just being fun and something someone might want to release for free...no, I didn't acknowledge that. Because it's not part of the topic. The whole thing started as deciding to sell a cart and make money, but flat out refusing to sell digital. If someone wants to give me the ROMs I want for free, then I'm no dummy. I'll take that in a heartbeat. lol

[WishItWas1984]

Devs should definitely look into the whole NFT scene to release digital versions of their cart games.

 

I mean, it's moronic and the dumbest thing since digital trading cards, but if enough people are willing to spend their money on this stuff instead of a normal transaction, I'm in to "own" a piece just so I can finally get a ROM for a game I want to play. LOL

[Thomas Jentzsch]

12 minutes ago, WishItWas1984 said:

Devs should definitely look into the whole NFT scene to release digital versions of their cart games.

Sounds to me like an easy way for greedy people to milk collectors. Not my kind of game.

[+Andrew Davie]

12 minutes ago, WishItWas1984 said:

Devs should definitely look into the whole NFT scene to release digital versions of their cart games.

 

I mean, it's moronic and the dumbest thing since digital trading cards, but if enough people are willing to spend their money on this stuff instead of a normal transaction, I'm in to "own" a piece just so I can finally get a ROM for a game I want to play. LOL

But how much would you pay.

For example, if you wanted a NFT binary of Boulder Dash, serial numbered in the binary and customised graphics...  what's it worth?

Say there were 10 copies only.

Also, just as a thought experiment let's say they were auctioned off one-by-one, from serial # 10 down to # 1.  Would you start bidding on #10 and bid to your limit, then if you lose, on #9... etc.  But the lower numbers are scarcer (only 9 left now!) so wouldn't they attract higher bids? 

I'm still all a bit confused about what the buyer actually gets, except for a proven chain of ownership.

The binary can presumably be released by the buyer and it still plays on stella, etc., but only one person (with the NFT) actually "owns" it and can sell/trade it.  Seems just completely intangible to me.

[Mockduck]

The price structure of homebrew vs retail is a big issue. People complain all the time about "expensive" steam games at $15, but the standard homebrew is usually at least $30 and often higher. I don't think most homebrews would be willing to sell their digital game at $5, and until that happens it'll remain a specialty collector's market. Maybe it should be, dunno. 

[donjn]

I think $9.99 to $14.99 is a good price point for these roms.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:59 AM, WishItWas1984 said:

True, the profit margin in a cart sale might be inflated way beyond what a digital sale could sustain because the extras and "deluxe" nature of it imports enough perceived value to get people on the hook. However, and this is something a lot are missing, is that the idea of it not being worth their time is nearly a non-existent issue. You don't need to create a digital storefront and payment processing services to sell a digital file. There's a bunch of different ways to grassroots the whole process and make it simple and easy. Especially if it's one guy who doesn't want to put much effort into it.

 

Regarding your second point of it just being fun and something someone might want to release for free...no, I didn't acknowledge that. Because it's not part of the topic. The whole thing started as deciding to sell a cart and make money, but flat out refusing to sell digital. If someone wants to give me the ROMs I want for free, then I'm no dummy. I'll take that in a heartbeat. lol

Like I said before, I think the viability is going to vary from game to game. There are probably enough people out there who would pay 5-10 dollars for a Galagon ROM but wouldn’t pay for a cart for it to make sense. But the number of people actually willing to pay even 5 bucks for a Ms. Galactopus ROM is is probably so low that I’m not going to miss the money, so it makes more sense for me to let people download it for free. And it could just be a difference in philosophy. Maybe you’d go ahead and offer a pay option anyway where I wouldn’t.

 

The problem is there isn’t enough real world data yet, so it’s all just speculation. A few lower profile games have tried digital sales and gotten disappointing results. Was that because there’s no market for digital-only 2600 games, or because the market wasn’t there for those particular games? Neo mentioned his games doing poorly digitally, but he caters to the high-end collectible crowd who is willing to pay a premium for bells and whistles, not necessarily people who want a game just to play it, so he’s not the best example.

[zzip]

Just now, Mockduck said:

The price structure of homebrew vs retail is a big issue. People complain all the time about "expensive" steam games at $15, but the standard homebrew is usually at least $30 and often higher. I don't think most homebrews would be willing to sell their digital game at $5, and until that happens it'll remain a specialty collector's market. Maybe it should be, dunno. 

I think there's different demographics involved too.   The homebrew collector is likely older with more disposable income.   The person complaining about $15 games on Steam is likely younger and poorer.

 

While the value of homebrew games might not objectively be worth $30 when you compare it to what the same amount of money buys for modern games.   Homebrew fans are functioning more like patrons..  they know they are paying above market value because they want to reward creators and see the homebrew scene continue.

 

On the supply side, $15 Steam games make their money on volume,  the kind of volume that simply doesn't exist in the homebrew world, so they need to charge more to make it work

 

Part of me wonders if digital homebrews should be sold with the box and manual as well, to at least make the buyer feel like they getting something for their money.   Putting them in digital stores might reinforce the "this is overpriced" mentality.

[Jstick]

5 minutes ago, zzip said:

Part of me wonders if digital homebrews should be sold with the box and manual as well, to at least make the buyer feel like they getting something for their money.   Putting them in digital stores might reinforce the "this is overpriced" mentality.

Box, manual, unique NFT token etched onto the back of an (empty) labeled cartridge shell, and link to digital download.

 

There, I just created a new business model for someone.

 

 

[hizzy]

40 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

But how much would you pay.

For example, if you wanted a NFT binary of Boulder Dash, serial numbered in the binary and customised graphics...  what's it worth?

Say there were 10 copies only.

Also, just as a thought experiment let's say they were auctioned off one-by-one, from serial # 10 down to # 1.  Would you start bidding on #10 and bid to your limit, then if you lose, on #9... etc.  But the lower numbers are scarcer (only 9 left now!) so wouldn't they attract higher bids? 

I'm still all a bit confused about what the buyer actually gets, except for a proven chain of ownership.

The binary can presumably be released by the buyer and it still plays on stella, etc., but only one person (with the NFT) actually "owns" it and can sell/trade it.  Seems just completely intangible to me.

Copying a.k.a. how does it work?

But… if it's all digital, what makes them unique? Can't you just copy something digital and then have multiple copies of it?

Excellent question, attentive reader.

Attentive reader

This is where the blockchain comes in. While non-fungible digital assets were already possible on regular servers, they relied on centralized architecture and oversight – someone's server was in charge which meant they could disappear overnight, change some of the values on some of the assets, print new assets at will without anyone knowing, and more. Blockchain makes this transparent and immutable (unchangeable).

The same security that blockchain provides to “regular digital money” or fungible tokens applies to NFTs as well: thousands of computers are executing the same code, reaching the same conclusion, and verifying each other's result making sure no one is cheating, or kicking them out of the network if they are. So too in NFTs do the machines make sure there is only one copy of a given NFT at any given time, and that it is owned by the person who is supposed to be owning it.

 

I don't know what any of that means! lol

[Thomas Jentzsch]

2 minutes ago, hizzy said:

I don't know what any of that means! lol

A lot of wasted energy and CO2 produced.

[hizzy]

50 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

But how much would you pay.

For example, if you wanted a NFT binary of Boulder Dash, serial numbered in the binary and customised graphics...  what's it worth?

Say there were 10 copies only.

Also, just as a thought experiment let's say they were auctioned off one-by-one, from serial # 10 down to # 1.  Would you start bidding on #10 and bid to your limit, then if you lose, on #9... etc.  But the lower numbers are scarcer (only 9 left now!) so wouldn't they attract higher bids? 

I'm still all a bit confused about what the buyer actually gets, except for a proven chain of ownership.

The binary can presumably be released by the buyer and it still plays on stella, etc., but only one person (with the NFT) actually "owns" it and can sell/trade it.  Seems just completely intangible to me.

 

If I had a month's notice, I would have monies at the ready for a NFT binary of Boulder Dash. Let's just say I wouldn't go low as a bid. Hence the month. 

 

Collecting anything is slightly irrational.

[WishItWas1984]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Sounds to me like an easy way for greedy people to milk collectors. Not my kind of game.

Meh. As a collector (mostly of toys), I put all of the responsibility on the collector. If someone doesn't have the willpower to not buy something, that's on them. Just because Hasbro puts out the 472th version of Luke Skywalker, or someone releases a super-special ROM via NFT, doesn't mean anyone has to buy it.

[WishItWas1984]

1 hour ago, Andrew Davie said:

But how much would you pay.

For example, if you wanted a NFT binary of Boulder Dash, serial numbered in the binary and customised graphics...  what's it worth?

Say there were 10 copies only.

Also, just as a thought experiment let's say they were auctioned off one-by-one, from serial # 10 down to # 1.  Would you start bidding on #10 and bid to your limit, then if you lose, on #9... etc.  But the lower numbers are scarcer (only 9 left now!) so wouldn't they attract higher bids? 

I'm still all a bit confused about what the buyer actually gets, except for a proven chain of ownership.

The binary can presumably be released by the buyer and it still plays on stella, etc., but only one person (with the NFT) actually "owns" it and can sell/trade it.  Seems just completely intangible to me.

For an NFT release? I wouldn't pay anything. Like I said, I think it's stupid.

 

For a normal ROM purchase of a game, it all depends. $5-20 maybe. Like, Avalanche I can see paying around $10. It's simplistic, but I can see it being addictive and fun with infinite replayability, like with Kaboom. For the new Audacity game, I'd say $20 cause of it's complexity and the talent behind it. I expect above-Homebrew quality.