1090XL remake

[+MrFish]

14 hours ago, Mathy said:

We here at the Fujiama had an online meeting with Joe Decuir yesterday evening.  We specifically asked if the 1090XL had reached the state where it was ready to go to market.  From what Joe said we concluded that it was ready for market when the Tramiel clan killed the project (and lots more).

 

This statement needs to be pinned to the top of this forum.

 

[Kyle22]

I would like a 1090XL attached to my Incognito 800 PBI. I would like a FAST Zilog Z380 chip w/ Lots of RAM, and a Fast hard drive.

Or, an 800 card would be even BETTER. You have 800 backplane signals AND PBI bus to use.

 

Imagine NZ-COM running FAST with the ability to use databases, ect.

This is do-able.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Kyle22
Only with Incognito.

[kenames99]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:22 PM, MrFish said:

 

This statement needs to be pinned to the top of this forum.

 

hi MrFish,

  I totally agree with you on that.

 

Alfred, if you are reading this, can that be done? thanks!

 

Ken

 

[+MrFish]

3 hours ago, kenames99 said:

I totally agree with you on that.

 

Alfred, if you are reading this, can that be done? thanks!

 

Ken, I'm sure that's about as good as any information you could hear from someone who actually knows.

 

I'm kinda jesting here, of course, about pinning a single statement on the forums; but it's almost that important: Important to this project and all the discussions going on about it, and important for people to remember in general for the future. If nothing else, maybe Michael Current should be contacted about adding blurb about it with the 1090 information that's in the Atari 8-bit FAQ.

 

[+mytek]

Earlier there was a discussion over on the 64K Card thread talking about where data and address buffering would do the most good on the PBI connection, and I had mentioned that something on the computer side made a lot of sense, not realizing that apparently this was how the 14xxXL series systems were designed as talked about in this post...

 

 

So it appears that the original plan was to have buffering both in the computer and at the 1090 as well, which really makes good sense. It also suggests that the 1090 was never really intended or designed specifically for the 600/800XL series.

 

Unfortunately the computer-side buffering was not retained in the products that followed the never released 14xxXL series. However I was thinking that perhaps it can still be done by making a small PCB that would directly plug into the PBI using a card edge connector and provide the missing data and address buffers prior to feeding the ribbon cable. It would take 3 octal buffer chips and likely an additional smaller chip to buffer some of the control signals phi2, R/W, ect., and would add a lot of robustness and the ability to have a much longer ribbon interconnect cable between the 1090 and the computer. This same PCB could be made in two flavors, XL (PBI) and XE (Cart/ECI) so would also act as a bridge for the interface differences introduced in the XE systems.

 

Just a thought

 

[ivop]

39 minutes ago, mytek said:

However I was thinking that perhaps it can still be done by making a small PCB that would directly plug into the PBI using a card edge connector and provide the missing data and address buffers prior to feeding the ribbon cable. It would take 3 octal buffer chips and likely an additional smaller chip to buffer some of the control signals phi2, R/W, ect., and would add a lot of robustness and the ability to have a much longer ribbon interconnect cable between the 1090 and the computer. This same PCB could be made in two flavors, XL (PBI) and XE (Cart/ECI) so would also act as a bridge for the interface differences introduced in the XE systems.

This is exactly what I have in mind for using the Project Jenny backplane as an CART/ECI bay/hub.

Edited September 21, 2021 by ivop
add link for those not in the know

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

 

 

So it appears that the original plan was to have buffering both in the computer and at the 1090 as well, which really makes good sense. It also suggests that the 1090 was never really intended or designed specifically for the 600/800XL series.

 

Equally important, and why buffers are even being talked about.

 

I'd read this before from MetalGuy -- although the specifics tend to slip the mind over time, especially related to how information gets buried in forums. Can someone get @MEtalGuy66 in here to repeat himself again?

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by MrFish

[bfollowell]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

So it appears that the original plan was to have buffering both in the computer and at the 1090 as well, which really makes good sense. It also suggests that the 1090 was never really intended or designed specifically for the 600/800XL series.

 

 

I never really thought about that before. If it wasn't designed for the 600/800XL series, what was it designed for? The 400/800/1200 didn't have PBI and it was before the XE series. I can't recall, were the 1400XL/1450XLD supposed to have PBI?

 

[+DrVenkman]

5 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

 

I never really thought about that before. If it wasn't designed for the 600/800XL series, what was it designed for? The 400/800/1200 didn't have PBI and it was before the XE series. I can't recall, were the 1400XL/1450XLD supposed to have PBI?

 

Yes. The handful of prototype and pre-production 1400XL’s actually have PBI ports on the back, and the case plastics to match.

[kenames99]

yes, and the 1400XL had the PBI bus buffering built in. I will have to look into this a bit further.

 

Ken

 

[+kheller2]

As previously mentioned, the 1400 and 1450 designs had a LS294 on the data lines directly to the PBI and, what appears like, internally on the address lines;  According to the schematics which are a wee bit blurred for my eyes these days.

 

Even the 1450TONG had buffers on the data/address lines and they were placed before the PBI Floppy which just hangs off the buffered bus.

 

The TONG and 1090 were being worked on in 84 at the same time, so one wonders what they would have done with the 600XL/800XL had the 1090 been released.  But as we've seen, the 1090 on a 600XL works 'fine' for a RAM expansion device.

 

 

 

[kenames99]

hi everyone,

  I can now confirm the 1090XL on my github works. I have more memory available in my 600XL than is physically in it. Sorry for the crappy picture but that is a stock 600XL with only rf modulator for video out.

 

Ken

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by kenames99
forgot info

[atari-passion]

20 hours ago, kenames99 said:

hi everyone,

  I can now confirm the 1090XL on my github works. I have more memory available in my 600XL than is physically in it. Sorry for the crappy picture but that is a stock 600XL with only rf modulator for video out.

 

Ken

 

 

Good job ?

[kenames99]

hi,

  I just finished putting the 80 column card into kicad. here is a pic generated by kicad. Some components changed, like the video out jack and rotary switch, no current replacements available. I would like to know if there is any interest in this or any of the 1090XL and associated boards to go with it. this represents quite a few hours of time for each board so I would like to know if this is a waste of my time. I know some have said they want to see these, like post #2 in this topic, along with some others. and I appreciate your support. I am going to order 5 boards to test design and operation. I will likely keep 2 and will sell the other 3 most likely as bare boards.

 

Ken

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by kenames99
forgot info

[rkindig]

I’m interested!

[SlidellMan]

Ken, what you have done is nothing short of amazing.

[kenames99]

hi,

  thanks rkindig and SlideIIMan !

 

I also want to say that this 1090xl and cards are a mere proof of working concept. I also intend to pack all this into smaller and better sizes and modernized components. but for all the true-ists out there, the original designs by Atari and recreations by me will stay available.

 

Ken

 

[pancio]

Hi Ken,

 

It's looks very nice! Did you share it on GitHub or somewere? I'll help you with design or creating new boards as well. 

 

Regards,

pancio

 

[Dropcheck]

11 hours ago, kenames99 said:

hi,

  I just finished putting the 80 column card into kicad. here is a pic generated by kicad. Some components changed, like the video out jack and rotary switch, no current replacements available. I would like to know if there is any interest in this or any of the 1090XL and associated boards to go with it. this represents quite a few hours of time for each board so I would like to know if this is a waste of my time. I know some have said they want to see these, like post #2 in this topic, along with some others. and I appreciate your support. I am going to order 5 boards to test design and operation. I will likely keep 2 and will sell the other 3 most likely as bare boards.

 

Ken

 

I for one would like to see this board brought back to life.  Interesting to see how it compares with other 80 column cards/software versions. 

[kenames99]

hi pancio,

  I have not put this on my github yet, I wanted to test it first. it is a bit complicated for a video card so I would like to make sure it is good before other people make it and get mad because of mistakes I may have made.

 

Ken

 

[kenames99]

hi Dropcheck,

  I am going to make this board, order is in process. hoping there are no mistakes. the photos were real hard to read. I am sure I got everything placed properly, just a couple routes I had to toss a wild guess at but only for the path they take, not the interconnect.

 

Ken

 

[venom4728a]

What are the options available for the screen/display used with the 80 column card?

[kenames99]

hi venom4728a,

   I do not know, all the info I have is from the atarimuseum.com website. it is no longer there but you can look it up on archive.org. however, I would assume a video input on a monochrome monitor would work. also color if it is specified to work with 80 column display outputs. it is still a 15KHz out signal at with vsync still in range for approx. 60Hz. hope that helps. thanks for looking.

 

Ken

 

[kenames99]

On 5/11/2021 at 7:21 AM, x=usr(1536) said:

It's been quite a while since I've read up in any sort of depth regarding the 1090 and PBI bus' functioning, but a couple of things regarding the PBI cropped up tangentally in this thread regarding @geneb's 1400XL that seemed like they were worth mentioning.  What they really affect is the concept of a 1090 with more than 5 slots due to the compatibility implications of that idea.

 

Summary: the 14x0 machines' speech synthesiser and modem are assigned slots on the PBI bus.  The speech synth gets slot $07 (Speech Handler External Reference Specification, p.4) with the modem occupying another unspecified slot (1400XL Integral Modem External Reference Specification, p.23 and elsewhere).  Given that the 1090 has 5 slots likely numbered $01-$05, the modem probably sits at slot $06.  $00 would, in all likelihood, be assigned to either the 1090 or the PBI bus itself.

 

What this means is that in order to maintain compatibility with the 14x0-series machines, it appears as though any 1090 recreation used as the first PBI-attached 1090 would have to be a 5-slot device in order to not step on the 14x0s' on-board speech synth and modem.  Presumably, that wouldn't bar the possibility of daisy-chained 1090s having more than 5 slots, but that's TBD.  Regardless, it would go some way towards explaining why the 1090 was designed with only 5 slots.

 

This does open up an interesting possibility, though, for a 1090 with on-board modem and speech synth in the same PBI slots as the 14x0 machines used.  That plus the 14x0 OS ROMs could potentially turn a 600XL or 800XL into a 14x0, just with the modem and speech synth externally-connected as opposed to having them directly attached to the motherboard.

hi x=usr,

  that is indeed interesting information. the 1090xl spec (and I have looked at os source also) says the pbi starts at unit/card 0 and counts upward looking for the handler for attached devices. so any card that implements that same function can be assigned a lower pbi ID and then handle that hardware, or updated hardware. it can get a bit confusing, but that is the way pbi is designed. hope I explained that good enough to understand.

 

Ken

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 minutes ago, kenames99 said:

hi x=usr,

  that is indeed interesting information. the 1090xl spec (and I have looked at os source also) says the pbi starts at unit/card 0 and counts upward looking for the handler for attached devices. so any card that implements that same function can be assigned a lower pbi ID and then handle that hardware, or updated hardware. it can get a bit confusing, but that is the way pbi is designed. hope I explained that good enough to understand.

 

Ken

 

Makes perfect sense.  Thank you!