1090XL remake

[Tuxon86]

45 minutes ago, kenames99 said:

here is the mechanicals drawing I originally used, but there were some people that helped me with exact measurements and hole size and placements and the rest of the info I needed for the pc board. the case is another matter because of slot placement cutouts for the cards to expose connectors to the outside world. best route would be to contact an owner of a real 1090XL so they could provide the measurements needed.

 

Ken

 

Then again, those new expansion cards will probably use modern connector type for external use, no?

I don't think there's that much interest for legacy connectors. Beside the 80cvc, which other card with external connectivity are in the plans?

[reifsnyderb]

3 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said:

The styling can be copied from the 1050. I'll wait for the exact dimension also and what ports/openings are required in the front/sides/back.

 

Should've scrolled down before replying....

Some pictures can be found:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=1090xl+pictures&sxsrf=AOaemvJHEWXNGSG-bEmTI5mDRsH6rZttVQ:1641585435557&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPtYSmtqD1AhUkkokEHUilBKMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=912&dpr=1#imgrc=UwMkjiLqFaRBwM

 

It looks like the PBI port is in the front and the back has PC-like openings (with covers) for expansion cards.  The power supply plugs in from the back and there might be a power switch in the back...of all places.

 

[reifsnyderb]

This site has some nice pictures.  I wish we could find exact dimensions, though.

 

http://www.computer-history.org/Atari_1090xl.htm

[Tuxon86]

2 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

Some pictures can be found:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=1090xl+pictures&sxsrf=AOaemvJHEWXNGSG-bEmTI5mDRsH6rZttVQ:1641585435557&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPtYSmtqD1AhUkkokEHUilBKMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=912&dpr=1#imgrc=UwMkjiLqFaRBwM

 

It looks like the PBI port is in the front and the back has PC-like openings (with covers) for expansion cards.  The power supply plugs in from the back and there might be a power switch in the back...of all places.

 

Only the front is in plastic I think from that picture. The top/side are alu/steel with vent in the top back. 

 

[Tuxon86]

It's built like a reversed mini-itx pc case...

[kenames99]

ok, they were earlier in this same thread at

so you can see them there. atari-passion may give exact dimensions if asked.

 

Ken

 

[Tuxon86]

Having such a case made in metal will be costly, i fear. We're talking of having a custon steel/alu PC case here. Even for an hobbyist, you'll need a brake to make the frame and top cover. Doable if someone know somebody who work in sheet metal or a roofer, but not on a big scale.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Kaka-W1-2x460-18-Inch-Bending-Capacity/dp/B07QSJ7ZJG/ref=asc_df_B07QSJ7ZJG/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=335179885420&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17512762658261856918&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1002604&hvtargid=pla-769914910510&psc=1

Edited January 7, 2022 by Tuxon86
add link to sheet metal brake

[reifsnyderb]

Looking at the pictures it occurs to me that there is a lot of extra space in the 1090XL.  Once we make cards with modern technology and/or more compact designs, that space would be wasted.  Since there really aren't a supply of legacy boards available, supporting large boards is probably a non-issue.  The other issue is that larger circuit boards have a lot higher costs and, sometimes, "engineering fees".  I wouldn't be opposed to a more compact, miniature design that is still 100% compatible with the 1090XL.  Just something to think about.

[Tuxon86]

Just now, reifsnyderb said:

Looking at the pictures it occurs to me that there is a lot of extra space in the 1090XL.  Once we make cards with modern technology and/or more compact designs, that space would be wasted.  Since there really aren't a supply of legacy boards available, supporting large boards is probably a non-issue.  The other issue is that larger circuit boards have a lot higher costs and, sometimes, "engineering fees".  I wouldn't be opposed to a more compact, miniature design that is still 100% compatible with the 1090XL.  Just something to think about.

The 1090XL-mini ?

[leech]

3 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

That could be done and there are some reserved pins available.  But it requires soldering.  A lot of people can't solder and some may not want to modify their stock Atari.  I know I'd rather not modify my stock 800XL that was my first computer.  (I might add chroma...but am not happy about it.)

Ha, I am the same.  At least that mod is easily removed.  Just a patch wire.  Only other thing I have done to my original 800xl was to replace the joystick port as one of the pins broke.

[kenames99]

 

2 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

Looking at the pictures it occurs to me that there is a lot of extra space in the 1090XL.  Once we make cards with modern technology and/or more compact designs, that space would be wasted.  Since there really aren't a supply of legacy boards available, supporting large boards is probably a non-issue.  The other issue is that larger circuit boards have a lot higher costs and, sometimes, "engineering fees".  I wouldn't be opposed to a more compact, miniature design that is still 100% compatible with the 1090XL.  Just something to think about.

I am not opposed to making the main board smaller. I did this to supply a remake of the original as Atari was going to. also not opposed to smaller plug in cards. I am in the process of adapting the K-Products Interface into a 1090XL plugin board, just as an exercise. I also have other boards in mind to do. reifsnyderb already did a ram board so I wont bother with that tho software will have to be done for it.

 

Ken

 

[massiverobot]

Doesn't the FujiNet pretty much already do whatever you could do with this, and for a lot cheaper? Disk, cassette, SAM, printer, modem - and with the protocol adapters it can do whatever you'd want in terms of 'networking' like telnet, ssh, https, ftp.

 

I'm not saying don't do this, it would be interesting, but realistically what is the use case for this say if you already have a FujiNet?

 

 

[kenames99]

fujinet is SIO and therefore can never be as fast as a parallel device can be. that alone is enough for me. I am not saying there is no place for fujinet tho, I even have 1 myself and I like it. but,it is kind of a moving target with one thing or another not working between updates but that is the way with newly developing hardware and drivers.

 

Ken

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

10 minutes ago, massiverobot said:

Doesn't the FujiNet pretty much already do whatever you could do with this, and for a lot cheaper? Disk, cassette, SAM, printer, modem - and with the protocol adapters it can do whatever you'd want in terms of 'networking' like telnet, ssh, https, ftp.

 

I'm not saying don't do this, it would be interesting, but realistically what is the use case for this say if you already have a FujiNet?

 

 

Nope the fujinet emulates stuff and at SIO speeds... this is PBI, and is much more capable in that it doesn't need as much memory,  and load it's parts in fashion using some methods that fujinet is not capable of, fujinet can not make it's memory use-able to the internal Atari Architecture nor can it provide the Video capabilities and cards that this may....

fujinet can never be as fast as a parallel device is. Fujinet has it's place, but this is definitely the way to do all it does and more.

Edited January 7, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[+Spancho]

8 minutes ago, massiverobot said:

Doesn't the FujiNet pretty much already do whatever you could do with this, and for a lot cheaper? Disk, cassette, SAM, printer, modem - and with the protocol adapters it can do whatever you'd want in terms of 'networking' like telnet, ssh, https, ftp.

 

I'm not saying don't do this, it would be interesting, but realistically what is the use case for this say if you already have a FujiNet?

 

 

What could we do with a PBI FujiNet which doesn’t need to care about the SIO-bus dependencies?

[reifsnyderb]

6 minutes ago, massiverobot said:

Doesn't the FujiNet pretty much already do whatever you could do with this, and for a lot cheaper? Disk, cassette, SAM, printer, modem - and with the protocol adapters it can do whatever you'd want in terms of 'networking' like telnet, ssh, https, ftp.

 

I'm not saying don't do this, it would be interesting, but realistically what is the use case for this say if you already have a FujiNet?

 

 

FujiNet doesn't do 80 column display and extra memory.  Maybe a FujiNet type card could be made to go into the 1090 as well?

 

As Ken just said, Fujinet is also SIO, so it's slower.

 

[reifsnyderb]

Is there any use-case for +12vdc and -12vdc anymore?  I am thinking those could be eliminated from the power supply for a 1090XL mini.  Instead, it would be more useful to supply +5VDC.

[_The Doctor__]

I intend to use them with legacy equipment that I already have... it's part of the fun... full size of mini, we should still be able to drive current loop, rs 232, TTL, and supply  the 12v  for drives and adapters, who knows what else folks will tinker with.

[reifsnyderb]

2 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I intend to use them with legacy equipment that I already have... it's part of the fun... full size of mini, we should still be able to drive current loop, rs 232, TTL, and supply  the 12v  for drives and adapters, who knows what else folks will tinker with.

Good point.  The physical size of the capacitors could be reduced, though, as the current one's are huge.

Edited January 7, 2022 by reifsnyderb

[reifsnyderb]

The 1090XL card size appears to be 229 x 140mm (that includes the edge fingers).  That is going off of the size of a 1066 RAM card.  I am thinking they could be reduced to 150mm long x 100mm high.  Any thoughts on a better size?  (I checked my 2 memory cards I designed and they are a lot smaller.)

 

[+kheller2]

32 minutes ago, kenames99 said:

 

I am not opposed to making the main board smaller. I did this to supply a remake of the original as Atari was going to. also not opposed to smaller plug in cards. I am in the process of adapting the K-Products Interface into a 1090XL plugin board, just as an exercise. I also have other boards in mind to do. reifsnyderb already did a ram board so I wont bother with that tho software will have to be done for it.

 

Ken

 

I thought I had suggested once before that a pizza style box, not much taller than a 1200XL would be sweeter with horizontal cards.  But that ups the cost using riser boards. And that gets into custom molds .. especially if you want it to support your monitor.

 

Oh, and one of the 1090 revisions talked about making it a smart SIO device that DID take cartridges I think.

 

[kenames99]

I would prefer a more compact design where I could put my monitor on top.

 

one part of the 1090 spec talks about External Application Cartridge, which I take to mean just a big rom that takes up a larger space than a regular cart would, since the 1090 can use all the ram/rom space in the 64k space. been a long time since I read thru the specs but that is what I remember.

 

Ken

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

11 minutes ago, kenames99 said:

I would prefer a more compact design where I could put my monitor on top.

 

one part of the 1090 spec talks about External Application Cartridge, which I take to mean just a big rom that takes up a larger space than a regular cart would, since the 1090 can use all the ram/rom space in the 64k space. been a long time since I read thru the specs but that is what I remember.

 

Ken

 

 

What footprint size for a monitor?  

 

 

I just found the External Application Cartridge Spec....

 

 

The E.B.I. is designed to support two types of devices. The first is
an Expansion Box Peripheral (E.B.P.) and the second is an External
Application Cartridge (E.A.C.).
2.2.1.4.1 Expansion Bus Peripherals (E.B.P.)
The E.B.P.s have the following characteristics:
1. The interface between the E.B.P. and the CPU is defined through
the handler/OS resident in the OS ROM. The OS can support 8 devices at
one time with only one enabled during any given interval. !!!!!!
2. Every E.B.P. has a unique handler that resides in the CPU memory
from D800H-DFFFH. The ROMS containing the code for these handlers are
physically resident on the respective E.B.P.s. To access this handler,
the math pack must be disabled with MPD'. When the math pack is
disabled (this should happen whenever the E.B.P. is selected and has an
external handler) the computer will generate EXTENB for the math pack
area. The E.B.P. must generate the correct EXTENB/EXTSEL' protocol.
If the device does not generate EXTSEL' the CPU will access (in the 64K
computers) an unused area of ram. This area should not be used since
all computers of this series do not have that area of ram.
3. The location D1FFH in the CPU memory map is reserved for passing
control information between the CPU and the E.B.P.s. The CPU selects
one of the E.B.P. devices by writing a "1" into the desired bit in
location D1FFH. The device can be deselected by writing a "0" into the
desired bit.
7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0
-----------------------------------------
| D7 | D6 | D5 | D4 | D3 | D2 | D1 | D0 |
-----------------------------------------
Therefore the CPU can then access 8 devices, one at a time. If the
IRQ' line is pulled "low" the CPU can read the status for location
D1FFH and locate the requesting E.B.P.. A "1" in a bit Ix (where x=0
to 7) corresponds to an interrupt in E.B.P. x. If the bit is a "0"
then the device has not caused the interrupt. The E.B.P. must clear
the interrupt flag when the interrupt is being serviced.
7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0
-----------------------------------------
| I7 | I6 | I5 | I4 | I3 | I2 | I1 | I0 |
-----------------------------------------
4. An E.B.P. should assert MPD' only when it is selected. An E.B.P.
should assert EXTSEL' only when it is selected and if EXTENB' is
asserted.
5. An E.B.P. may respond to any selects D0 through D7. It is
recommended that the E.B.P.s have configuration switches to allow them
to respond to any one of the selects. Some of the computer systems use
the E.B.I. to support internal devices therefore the user should check
each manual for device locations. If the system has devices in
specific locations, those are reserved in that computer.
6. An E.B.P. handler may respond to addresses in the region
D800H-DFFFH only when it is selected.
7. A peripheral may respond to addresses in the region D100H to
D1FEH only when selected.
8. The E.B.P.s will have software priority over the SIO peripheral
when they are addressed generically. !!!!!!
9. Data transfer between the CPU and the E.B.P. is under the control
of the peripheral handler for the E.B.P.s. The peripheral handler may
or may not be in the E.B.P. Data transfer is handled by a combination
of code in the O.S. and the E.B.P.
10. The E.B.P.s shall work if a cartridge is present in the
cartridge slot.
11. The CPU address space from D600H to D7FFH is reserved for E.B.I.
devices as follows:
Device Range Size
------ ----- ----
D0 D600H-D61FH 32 Bytes
D1 D620H-D63FH 32 Bytes
D2 D640H-D65FH 32 Bytes
D3 D660H-D67FH 32 Bytes
D4 D680H-D69FH 32 Bytes
D5 D6A0H-D6BFH 32 Bytes
D6 D6C0H-D6DFH 32 Bytes
D7 D6E0H-D6FFH 32 Bytes
The region from D700H to D7FFH is reserved for use by ATARI. The CPU
address space from D600H to D7FFH is always mapped to the E.B.I. and
does not require the EXTENB/EXTSEL' protocol. Some units may have
devices mapped on the E.B.I.; these devices are only active when
selected but care must be taken when using a unit with onboard devices.
2.2.1.4.2 External Application Cartridges
The "External Application Cartridge" (EAC) is a generalization of the
E.B.P.. They have the following characteristics:
1. An EAC can reside at any or all of the locations in the region
0000H to BFFFH for which the EXTENB is generated. They may respond to
these addresses only when "opened".
2. The EACs must be opened by the protocol given for the E.B.P.s.
3. The EACs must conform to the EXTENB/EXTSEL' protocol.
4. The EACs must have a handler (resident at location D800H-DFFFH)
that controls their operation. The EACs must conform to conditions (4)
through (11) of section III. B. above.
5. The EACs will work if a cartridge is present in the internal
cartridge slot. !!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[+kheller2]

19 minutes ago, kenames99 said:

I would prefer a more compact design where I could put my monitor on top.

 

one part of the 1090 spec talks about External Application Cartridge, which I take to mean just a big rom that takes up a larger space than a regular cart would, since the 1090 can use all the ram/rom space in the 64k space. been a long time since I read thru the specs but that is what I remember.

 

Ken

 

 

[kenames99]

8 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

28 minutes ago, kenames99 said:

 

What footprint size for a monitor?  

 

about that size.

 

Ken