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Well, OK, sounds good to me. I have nothing against the usage of as close to original as possible, but I think we should improve where possible. Full buffering for the bus, and maybe an option to adapt already produced modern boards/devices where possible, so we don't have to wait for entirely new boards to use with it.

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I'm no 1090 expert, let alone a PBI expert, but the majority of video based upgrades off the bus are going to be limited to basically redoing the entire graphics system.  It isn't like GTIA/ANTIC have line out on the bus or a disable line to replace them with an auxiliary card.   The 80 column board was basically an additional graphics board tied into the bus, I think it even had its own character sets.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/14/2021 at 9:30 PM, kenames99 said:

hi,

  A while ago, before Curt Vendel passed away, we were colloberating on a reproduction of to 1090xl expansion box. I was remaking the board and Curt was going to do the mechanicals parts. I do not know how far he got but I got the board design done. I never had the chance to get it produced. would there be any interest for me to put this on a github repo?

 

thanks

Ken

 

1090XL.jpg

I would love to check my pieced together schematic against yours.  See if I missed something.  Probably would be an exercise in humility for me.  🙂

Edited by Dropcheck
misspoke

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Posted (edited)

I recently started working on a

I suppose, with all the computer cards removed, and a buffered cable, the same board could be connected to the CART/ECI or the PBI. I only just started designing the bus, though, but I specifically copied the CART/ECI so it's easy to use existing boards, like the SysCheck for RAM and ROM. During testing, or always if you can't or don't want to build the ROM and RAM cards.

Edited by ivop

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5 hours ago, Dropcheck said:

I would love to check my pieced together schematic against yours.  See if I missed something.  Probably would be an exercise in humility for me.  🙂

hi Dropcheck,

  This was done completely off the schematic of the original 1090 and original board design. If you followed the original schematic with your repro boards then they should be 1:1 electrically. I even was going to buy a board set from you but they went out of stock and not showed up again.

 

Ken

 

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6 hours ago, danwinslow said:

Well, OK, sounds good to me. I have nothing against the usage of as close to original as possible, but I think we should improve where possible. Full buffering for the bus, and maybe an option to adapt already produced modern boards/devices where possible, so we don't have to wait for entirely new boards to use with it.

hi,

  the original design by Atari was fully buffered on address, data, and control signals.  It is actually a good design and uses all standard 74LSxxx type TTL chips, so there would be no obsolete parts in reproducing this. just a large board surface area.

 

Ken

 

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6 hours ago, Spancho said:

What were the main benefits of a 1090XL design BITD?

In my opinion Atari addresses the following:

 

1) Get more slots (PBI exposed slots)

2) Buffering the signals

3) do already address decoding for the needed PBI ID

4) additional common power supply

5) maybe more I don`t know

 

The points 2 to 4 for sure aimed to make expansion card design cheaper and easier BITD.

By todays technology that is maybe not so importnat anymore.

 

My hope would be that a 1090 could be an enabler to produce more PBI expansion cards which can co-exist and the entry barrier for hobbyists which are not perfect in electronics were lower.

 

In the end it`s a hobby and there is no good reason for doing things than "It´s fun and joy".

hi Spancho,

  that is exactly why I do anything for Atari computers, it is fun and joyful. :)

 

Ken

 

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Posted (edited)

I think what everyone is missing, that is suggesting that this 1090 remake should be made better or be made with improved components or what have you, is that these guys are wanting to make this out of love for the old Atari of the early to mid-80s, the love for their Ataris in general, and to make something that they wanted and drooled over way back then, but never got. They're hardware tinkerers that love doing this sort of thing. As far as just upgrades and expansions go, yes, there are many currently available upgrades that do many of the things the 1090 was supposed to do, and do them better, but they're still not a 1090. Do you want 80 columns? Install a VBXL or VBXE? Do you want 64K? Well, who doesn't have 64K already other than 600XL owners, and if you do and want to upgrade, there are easier and cheaper ways to go about getting 64K than building this. Pretty much every planned board for the 1090 has already been done better by a modern upgrade except for the Z-80 CP/M module and the X10 control card.

 

I see this strictly as for those that always wanted a 1090, but never got it and as a fun project for those involved. I'm pretty sure this isn't meant as a viable replacement for any of the existing upgrades already out there.

 

Am I off-base here guys?

 

Good luck guys! I'm not sure if I'll be interested in buying or building one if it gets to that point, but I definitely look forward to watching the project proceed.

 

Edited by bfollowell
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49 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

Pretty much every planned board for the 1090 has already been done better by a modern upgrade except for the Z-80 CP/M module and the X10 control card.

This. A powered and buffered CART/ECI or PBI hub, and perhaps more, is the way to go IMHO :ponder:

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Posted (edited)

Ken - good to know, that sounds good.

 

bfollowell - I'm not missing that. I get it. But if they do lovingly build a 1090 replica...then what? We wait for boards to be developed, is then what. Since we've got a bunch of stuff already, as you've mentioned, people would have to fund and develop essentially duplicate boards to go into it. I was suggesting we make it as easy as possible to re-use some of the more modern stuff with it. Maybe that's not even possible, I don't know. I'm all for what they want to do here (and Ivop's idea too), just being realistic about it.

Edited by danwinslow

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33 minutes ago, danwinslow said:

bfollowell - I'm not missing that. I get it. But if they do lovingly build a 1090 replica...then what? We wait for boards to be developed, is then what. Since we've got a bunch of stuff already, as you've mentioned, people would have to fund and develop essentially duplicate boards to go into it. I was suggesting we make it as easy as possible to re-use some of the more modern stuff with it. Maybe that's not even possible, I don't know. I'm all for what they want to do here (and Ivop's idea too), just being realistic about it.

 

I guess missing was a poor choice of words. Maybe ignoring would have been better. I know you understand their reason for wanting to make this, and while you're route would be better for you, and likely many owners, it would defeat the purpose of why they want to remake the 1090 in the first place. It would and become something completely different than what the 1090 was, which isn't what they're shooting for. I certainly understand the reason why you feel the remake should take the route you suggest, but honestly, it should take the route of those that are putting their time, work, effort, and money into this endeavor. I don't necessarily think that anyone would or should be waiting for anything once the 1090XL is remade, if they get that far. I don't believe it is being made with any expectation that it will be a real, viable upgrade path for future boards. I believe they're remaking the 1090, just to get it out there, then they're done. I believe anyone really interested in purchasing or building one will or should realize that.

 

Of course, these are just my opinions, and I'm certain everyone else's are different. If you guys can convince them to add some of what you propose to their design, so much the better. If nothing else, it might be a good way for those less technically proficient Atari owners to upgrade their computers without having to open them or pickup a soldering iron, and that's always a good thing, right?

 

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6 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

I don't believe it is being made with any expectation that it will be a real, viable upgrade path for future boards. I believe they're remaking the 1090, just to get it out there, then they're done.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

To add to that... people often times forget that just because someone decides to post about a project they intend to create or have already created, which obviously Ken's reproduction of the PCB falls into the later category, doesn't always mean they are soliciting other people for their suggestions. And if you take a good look at how this topic began, it was about "Hey guys Curt and I worked together and here's what came out of that collaboration" -and- "If someone is interested I'll post the gerbers". Then as I've seen many times occur on AA, it becomes a free for all of everyone's suggestions on how it should have been done per their unsolicited opinion.

 

Geeze can't we just for once let a thing be a thing, and not always have it be about putting your own personal stamp on it.

 

BTW, great job Ken - I love what you and Curt were attempting to do 👍

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hi mytek,

  good words and opinion. this is just what it is, a 1090XL repro and that is all. I am sorry we lost Curt but he wanted this released openly after all was said and done anyway. So I am getting the files together and usable as a complete project. It was done using KiCAD 5.18 but any 5.1x should be fine.

 

  best thought I can come up with using this method of expansion is that you do not have to open and solder inside the Atari, plus all the room inside this and the expansion cards can be as big or small as you want. If big then more then 1 thing can be put on it, use your imagination. :) I would like to see many cards developed for this, tho I may just be hoping. I do also have most or all of the ram expansion card schematic and board done also and will be putting that on git as well. hang in there all, it will be there soon I promise. like i said, I wand the released project to be usable. thanks everyone for you thoughts.

 

  ivop, you have a very cool idea with your proposal and I hope to see that come to life in the future as well.

 

Ken

 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, mytek said:

doesn't always mean they are soliciting other people for their suggestions.

 

Have been reading all along, but... that's not the point.

 

This is, by definition, a public forum. Which means, anyone here is free to drop / launch anything Atari-related, and everyone here is entitled to his / her public opinion about it.

 

Now, bringing to life any idea in a public venue, and then expecting pre-canned reactions of a sector of the audience, while the remaining stays quiet is, by definition, an incoherent expectation. And yes, this is just my opinion, as well.

 

Now, having said that, I hope this project is brought to fruition, as it was originally conceived.

 

 

Edited by Faicuai
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I suppose anyone is free to share their opinions, but I can say one thing for certain.  I'm big time into cars, customizing them, etc.  If I went to shows and everyone that came over to look at my car did nothing but critique my work, told me what I should have done, or how they would have done it differently, I would no longer attend the shows.  It's my car, I built it for solely my enjoyment.  I go to car shows to share my work, hopefully inspire others, and look at what other people have done.  I don't go there looking to be told what my car should be.

 

There's a BIG difference between someone soliciting help or opinions on what a project should be.  But when something is already decided on, or that feedback is not solicited, it is often not appreciated.  Don't look at this as a manager, look at it from the point of the creator.  People don't always want to be told how to do things.

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3 hours ago, kenames99 said:

hi Dropcheck,

  This was done completely off the schematic of the original 1090 and original board design. If you followed the original schematic with your repro boards then they should be 1:1 electrically. I even was going to buy a board set from you but they went out of stock and not showed up again.

 

Ken

 

At the time I did my schematic, a gentleman from Australia had done a trace of his real 1090 and I used his wiring diagram.   So it's possible that we missed a trace or two.🙂

 

Yea, when I realized I couldn't continue with the project, I went ahead and sold off the extra boards I'd had made. 

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On 3/14/2021 at 7:30 PM, kenames99 said:

would there be any interest for me to put this on a github repo?

BTW, my answer to the question you posed at the start of this topic would be a resounding YES! :)

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Yea BUT..

What the hell would you plug into the 1090?

Where are you gonna find those cards?

Dont they have to be 8-bit communication?

 

Just asking..

 

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35 minutes ago, rockdoc2010 said:

Yea BUT..

What the hell would you plug into the 1090?

Where are you gonna find those cards?

Dont they have to be 8-bit communication?

 

Just asking..

 

The cards will be "found" the same place as the 1090.  They will be made, as nothing yet exists for the 1090.

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33 minutes ago, rockdoc2010 said:

Yea BUT..

What the hell would you plug into the 1090?

Where are you gonna find those cards?

Dont they have to be 8-bit communication?

 

Just asking..

 

All good questions :) .

 

Its kinda like the chicken or the egg scenario. This is probably the egg (or is it the chicken?). Honestly it's a good start, and other than the missing case it looks like once you had the board made and assembled it would be ready to go. Then as Stephen pointed out, someone would need to make a board to go in it, which could be anything. I was also thinking that there might be a way to make adapters to allow existing PBI devices to plug in. Anything is possible, but what I really like about it is that it brings the PBI out in manner that makes it very accessible, gives you multiple slots, and buffers all the signals, thus providing lots of stability. Best part of all, it's already done as far the PCB design and layout is concerned.

 

I know some will want the original Atari cards made for it, so as to complete the original how it could have been picture. And I'm sure that will happen. Personally if I were to make a card, I would probably go down the path of creating a data acquisition card having general purpose analog inputs with at least 12 bits of resolution (more likely 16 bits), maybe incorporate some thermocouple inputs for temperature, general purpose digital I/O, and either PWM or analog outputs.

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A DA input card would be awesome! 8 analog and 4 digital would turn an Atari into a PLC. Voyager 1 and 2 left with an 8 bit, the Shuttle left with the first laptop but it was triple redundant and as well the had a thing called majority rules. pretty frieking cool!

 

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Posted (edited)

Deleted; decided after posting that there were other thoughts that could better occupy this thread.

Edited by x=usr(1536)
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Posted (edited)

If you build it (and some cards), they (I) will come.

 

That being said, I was planning on creating my own simple-as possible expansion box just for current (non-legacy) PBI devices, but so far there is nothing else I need that is a PBI device besides the Syscheck 2.2 and Turbo Freezer 2011 right now. These devices include most of what is available in other PBI devices making them redundant and unnecessary. We need more unique PBI devices as it is before I need simple PBI expansion box or anyone needs modern take on the 1090 with versions of legacy cards or modern PBI device; 80-column devices, U1MB&VBXE&Rapidus PBI versions, Fujinet PBI, something totally new...

 

And, it might just be better to bring many of these together on one inclusive PBI device with all it needs in buffering, signal generation, power. etc. on-board, with modern miniature surface-mount tech than an expansion box. So there's really no point that I see, at this point. Is there anyone out there now using more than two PBI devices connected at once? If no, is it because more than two causes signal/power/lack of buffering/resistance/capacitance issues or just because there aren't enough unique PBI devices you want to even try having more than 2 connected at once with pass-thru PBI? Maybe you could but don't for all the reasons I stated.

 

History has already shown that a new device or upgrade created and intended with future expansion and development in mind , or just allowing for the possibility, doesn't mean that future expansion and development will happen. Very little for the VBXE, nothing devloped for use specifically with Rapidus, no expansion cards designed for the 800 slots and Incognito yet, except possibly for the VBXE adapter board. Maybe the audience for a modern 1090 with modern cards will draw a much larger audience than these above, making their development history a moot point, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

But an original equipment 1090 is a different story, for the love of old tech itself and having a piece of Atari 8-bit tech we missed out on. It should be planned and built as @kenames99 has been planning and developing.

 

If someone decides to make all-new modern cards for it for stuff not included in the planned legacy cards, on the back end, great, but it should be thought of as a possible bonus for those who want it, just like possibly cards for the 800 memory slots for the Incognito owners. but not the reason to get a 1090 or Incognito 800. As always, I'm interested in all of the above because I like vintage tech upgrades and new tech upgrades for my Atari's just because I like all kinds of Atari 8-bit related hardware and upgrades old and new. Useful or not, I have fun using them.

Edited by Gunstar
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hi all,

  I have what should be all needed files on github. please dont holler to load at me if you cant get it to load, this is my first push to github and also my first project shared. if needed I will redo it. thanks and have fun! (I hope)

 

https://github.com/kenames99/1090

 

Ken

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, mytek said:

 

I know some will want the original Atari cards made for it, so as to complete the original how it could have been picture. And I'm sure that will happen. Personally if I were to make a card, I would probably go down the path of creating a data acquisition card having general purpose analog inputs with at least 12 bits of resolution (more likely 16 bits), maybe incorporate some thermocouple inputs for temperature, general purpose digital I/O, and either PWM or analog outputs.

I missed this bit earlier...this is exactly the type of unique-to-A8-PBI device/expansion card, quoting myself, "something totally new" I had in-mind. Because besides a couple devices like Syscheck or Turbo Freezer* (*that I know of), no other PBI device, legacy or newer, doesn't already have an alternative version internally or using the cartridge port, or both or isn't already included in Syscheck and/or Turbo Freezer devices. . I for one, won't ever (except due to upgrade failure) need PBI versions of upgrades I've already installed internal versions of in my 1200XL, and I'm not waiting and see for ones I don't have yet, I've no problem installing the internal versions. But I'd want a DA card for a 1090 or just a plain PBI version even, because it would be new and unique, not something I already have in a different variety.

 

Non-hardware people interested in upgrades would want remakes of current internal upgrades for a 1090 or just a PBI version, but not all of us hardware hackers are necessarily going to be interested if they already have an original version installed, I know I won't.

Edited by Gunstar
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