ST Buyers Guide

[1200XL M.U.L.E.]

I recently added a 520 STe to my Atari workbench. It has the UK version of TOS 1.60 and a UK keyboard. I wanted a STe machine because it is easy to upgrade the RAM but the compromise is slight incompatibility with some original ST software. Acquiring the STe made me think of how one would decide which machine to get. Here are my thoughts.

 

I think there is a "ST" family and a "STe" family.

 

The ST family includes the ST, STm, STf, STfm, and Mega models. There normally is no Blitter, maximum TOS seems to be 1.40, and RAM is typically made up of DIP chips. It seems like a 520 STfm or 1040 STfm are the ideal machines here. RAM upgrades are possible whereas something like the 520 STm is stuck at 512 kB. I did not see much extra capability in a Mega, Mega 2, or Mega 4 ST model except that is has more RAM and different form factor.

 

The STe family includes the STe and Mega STe machines. A 520 STe or 1040 STe seems ideal here. The Mega models have a higher capacity floppy disk drive, a hard drive, and a faster clock rate @ 16 MHz. I'm not sure how important a high capacity floppy drive would be. Same with the hard drive. There are many solid state options available. Then again, I have to confess I run my 1200XL with as much real media as possible. Floppy disks can be fun to play with too.  A faster clock rate is nice but with so much software (games?) written around an 8 MHz clock I don't know if that clock would create more problems than it solves. I wish Atari had expanded their graphics capabilities rather than increase the clock rate. 640x200x4 feels rough.

 

Am I missing something? Any thoughts on how/why someone would choose one model over another?

[+DarkLord]

Audio and video capabilities of the STe line do

exceed those of the ST...

 

It's the kind of difference that once you've seen

it and experienced it, you wouldn't ever want to

go back...

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by DarkLord
Updated....

[1200XL M.U.L.E.]

@DarkLord Yes, of course! Kind of ironic I forgot about this since I had a hard time finding an audio cable in my box of loose cables. ?

 

Since I cannot edit my original message to include this, here is my updated text.

 

-----------------

 

The ST family includes the ST, STm, STf, STfm, and Mega models. There normally is no Blitter, maximum TOS seems to be 1.40, and RAM is typically made up of DIP chips. The single channel audio is generated through an FM based synthesizer. It seems like a 520 STfm upgraded to 1MB or a stock 1040 STfm are the ideal machines here. RAM upgrades to 4MB in the STf and STfm are possible whereas something like the 520 STm is stuck at 512 kB. I did not see much extra capability in a Mega, Mega 2, or Mega 4 ST model except that is has more RAM from the factory and a different form factor.

 

The STe family includes the STe and Mega STe machines. TOS starts at version 1.60 and the last official version is 2.06. Audio capabilities were upgraded and the STe has stereo digital audio. The graphics capabilities of 320x200x16 and 640x200x4 in the STe are a carry over from the ST. However, the palette of available colors increased from 512 to 4096. A 520 STe or 1040 STe seems ideal here. They can easily be upgraded to 4MB. The Mega models have a higher capacity floppy disk drive, a hard drive, and a faster clock rate @ 16 MHz. I'm not sure how important a high capacity floppy drive would be. Same with the hard drive. There are many solid state options available. Then again, I have to confess I run my 1200XL with as much real media as possible. Floppy disks can be fun to play with.  A faster clock rate is nice but with so much software (games?) written around an 8 MHz clock I don't know if that clock would create more problems than it solves. I wish Atari had expanded their graphics capabilities rather than increase the clock rate. 640x200x4 feels rough.

Edited March 21, 2021 by 1200XL M.U.L.E.
Can't update my initial post.

[+DarkLord]

I'm really not the one to tell you about the differences but it really

is a case of 1+1=3.

 

Even though, like you (and soooo many others) I wish Atari had

increased the graphics range, more was done than just a palette

increase.

 

Same way with the audio. It's not just improved to stereo....

 

Some of the gaming/demo coding people really need to get in 

here and explain it better, I can't....

 

 

[1200XL M.U.L.E.]

Sure ... I can understand the 1+1=3 analogy a little bit. It’s not just about the raw capability by itself but all the possibilities it opens in conjunction with other capabilities.  

[Almerian]

 

On 3/21/2021 at 3:39 AM, 1200XL M.U.L.E. said:

I did not see much extra capability in a Mega, Mega 2, or Mega 4 ST model except that is has more RAM and different form factor.

Compared to the regular ST, the Mega ST adds the RTC, the blitter, a Megabus expansion slot (FPU, Graphics card), and an external keyboard with Cherry MX black switches.
The 520ST(/+/M) memory can be expanded. It requires soldering (piggyback or expanded memory board).

[1200XL M.U.L.E.]

@Almerian Thanks for this! I thought the Blitter was not present in the ST series even though the motherboard has a space for it. I read about the existence of the expansion slot but what cards were made for it?

 

I did a quick Google search for upgrading the RAM in a 520 STm and it's a serious job! It's certainly beyond my confidence level with a soldering iron.  

[zzip]

On 3/21/2021 at 9:30 AM, DarkLord said:

I'm really not the one to tell you about the differences but it really

is a case of 1+1=3.

 

Even though, like you (and soooo many others) I wish Atari had

increased the graphics range, more was done than just a palette

increase.

 

Same way with the audio. It's not just improved to stereo....

 

Some of the gaming/demo coding people really need to get in 

here and explain it better, I can't....

Audio is the biggest noticeable difference IMO,  STe basically has two sound chips,  the classic Yamaha chip that all ST's have, and the DMA sound chip.

All ST's are capable of playing back digitized audio as many games show, but doing it with the Yamaha chip is very CPU intensive, also sample rates are low so samples played this way tend to have hiss and digital noise.   Maybe you didn't notice the low quality when you got your ST BITD because you were amazed to have this capability at all.     

 

The STe DMA sound chip uses DMA to play sound samples, so there is much less CPU overhead.   This allows higher sample rates, and the playback of these samples was crystal-clear (as crystal clear as the source material was anyway).   Another cool thing about the STe was that it had line-out ports on the back so you could easily plug into a stereo system for much better sound than your monitor could provide.

 

The next big thing was blitter.   This made the whole computer feel faster because it would speed up text and graphics rendering when enabled.  In games it gave something closer to hardware sprites than the original ST had.

 

Also should mention that the STe added hardware scrolling capabilities

 

Lastly as mentioned, it bumped the color palette, but did not allow more colors on screen or better resolutions.   I'm sure that disappointed as all.  However the 4096 vs 512 bump does make some difference in better color reproduction,  and all ST's can use software tricks to get more colors on the screen and even more on the same scanline (as Spectrum 512 and other programs showed)

 

I think where 1+1=3 comes in is both the blitter and the DMA sound chip can operate semi-independently from the 68000, and therefore take load off the CPU allowing it to do other things.   So when you see the more amazing STe games and demos in action, this is why they seem to blow away what a vanilla ST can do..   The CPU isn't bogged down with blitting or playing sound samples, and freed up to do other things, like maybe more colors on the screen or 3D operations

 

[zzip]

9 hours ago, 1200XL M.U.L.E. said:

I did a quick Google search for upgrading the RAM in a 520 STm and it's a serious job! It's certainly beyond my confidence level with a soldering iron.

A friend upgraded mine, and he piggybacked the RAM on the built-in chips.   Claimed it was a trivial upgrade.   Maybe it was for someone with soldering skills and experience,   but I'm like you, didn't have the skills or confidence that I wouldn't screw it up!    I also think you can only get to 1MB with this method,  if you wanted to go beyond that you had to buy some third party upgrade board.

 

By contrast upgrading the memory to 4Gb on my STe was super easy..   open case, pop out old sims, pop in new ones.  done!

[calimero]

^
4MB...

[1200XL M.U.L.E.]

@zzip Thanks for the explanation. Yes, it makes sense. Co-processors free up the 68000 to do other things and the DAC based audio gives much higher quality audio output. I did wonder why Atari did not add co-processors in all ST and STe machines like the 8-bit line of machines. Commodore did it right away, I think, with audio and video co-processors. Was the 68000 considered to be fast enough without them? Seems like we can never have anything "fast enough" today.  

 

@calimero Who knows ... maybe he really did add 4GB of RAM.  Magic exists in places we least expect it to.

[zzip]

8 minutes ago, 1200XL M.U.L.E. said:

I did wonder why Atari did not add co-processors in all ST and STe machines like the 8-bit line of machines. Commodore did it right away, I think, with audio and video co-processors. Was the 68000 considered to be fast enough without them? Seems like we can never have anything "fast enough" today.  

Here's a short history of how/why that happened:

 

Jay Miner designed the custom chips for the Atari 8-bit line.   He left Atari and started a company named Amiga.   They released some 2600 peripherals, but their real project was this advanced custom chipset.   Atari (under Warner Communication) invested in or lent this company some money.   In exchange Atari was promised first dibs on this chip-set.   Apparently Atari was working on a computer named the 1850XLD which would have used this chipset.

 

in early 1984 Jack Tramiel left Commodore after a dispute.   He took engineer Shiraz Shivji with him.   This was right around the time the Macintosh was announced, and Jack wanted to build a cheap Mac killer and dominate that market the same way the C64 did.   Shiraz began designing this system.   It had a very aggressive timeline so it used off the shelf parts where it could to decrease the number of custom chips it required to help speed development.

 

In Summer 1984, Jack bought the Atari home division, at CES 85, he unveils this new computer as the ST, and it begins shipping that summer/fall.   He tried to get the Amiga chips since he now had that contract, but Commodore swooped in and grabbed them.

 

In the end it comes down to development time.   The Amiga started development long before the ST was conceived, and the ST still beat the Amiga to market by a few months.   ST was also originally meant to compete with Mac which didn't have those kinds of custom chips either.

[+slx]

My Mega ST came with an empty blitter socket and the blitter was delivered without charge a bit later when Atari had them ready. I don't remember a significant feel of speedup on the desktop after installation. The Mega is probably a bit easier to tinker with, as it has got more internal space (I have a TOS 2,06 and 3,5" IDE hard disc in mine) but unless you're after re-living 1980's/1990's productivity software, any STe is probably the best choice to enjoy ST software these days (I sometimes think about adding one but even the 1040 STes have become quite expensive, not to speak of Mega STes with their added speed). 

[Mr. Undo]

On 3/22/2021 at 5:58 PM, zzip said:

Here's a short history of how/why that happened:

 

Jay Miner designed the custom chips for the Atari 8-bit line.   He left Atari and started a company named Amiga.   They released some 2600 peripherals, but their real project was this advanced custom chipset.   Atari (under Warner Communication) invested in or lent this company some money.   In exchange Atari was promised first dibs on this chip-set.   Apparently Atari was working on a computer named the 1850XLD which would have used this chipset.

 

in early 1984 Jack Tramiel left Commodore after a dispute.   He took engineer Shiraz Shivji with him.   This was right around the time the Macintosh was announced, and Jack wanted to build a cheap Mac killer and dominate that market the same way the C64 did.   Shiraz began designing this system.   It had a very aggressive timeline so it used off the shelf parts where it could to decrease the number of custom chips it required to help speed development.

 

In Summer 1984, Jack bought the Atari home division, at CES 85, he unveils this new computer as the ST, and it begins shipping that summer/fall.   He tried to get the Amiga chips since he now had that contract, but Commodore swooped in and grabbed them.

 

In the end it comes down to development time.   The Amiga started development long before the ST was conceived, and the ST still beat the Amiga to market by a few months.   ST was also originally meant to compete with Mac which didn't have those kinds of custom chips either.

Yeah, when Jack Tramiel decided to create a new computer a few months after he left Commodore in January ‘84 and founded Tramel Technology with that objective, many important Commodore employees left also the company and joined him in his new adventure. That happened in April/May 1984. And that was really a hard blow for Commodore. 

 

One month before, in March ‘84, with Warner still owning the Atari’s home division, Amiga and Atari signed a license agreement. Atari gave Amiga $500,000 to finish their custom chipset. Amiga had to pay back that amount by the end of June or Atari would own all of their technology.

 

In the period between that license agreement between Atari and Amiga and the acquisition of the Atari’s home division by Tramel Technology on July 2, Amiga and Commodore had been also in contact. Commodore not only saw a fantastic chipset. They desperately needed also a team of engineers. Why not buy the whole lot? It seemed like a win-win business.

 

On June 29, 1984, just three days before Tramel Technology's acquisition of Atari home business, David Morse, co-founder of Amiga, went to the Atari offices to pay back the $500,000 plus interests with the intention of annulling the contract signed in March.  A month later, on August 26, the acquisition of Amiga by Commodore was formalized for $24 million.

 

It was in that same month of August the Tramiels discovered the contract between Atari and Amiga and how it was resolved.  But it was not Atari but Commodore who were the first to start the battle in the courts. Commodore sued Shiraz Shivji and his engineers for taking some technical papers and use them for the design of the new 16-bit computer. And later on Atari sued Commodore for the previous license agreement Amiga signed with Atari. At the end, in march of 1987, a sealed settlement was signed. The content of that agreement was never revealed, but it’s said that Commodore had to pay the legal costs and some amount of additional restitution.

 

It’s true; for Atari at the beginning the main rivals were the Macintosh and the IBM PC, not the Amiga. But the press started to compare both systems (the ST and the Amiga 1000 -and also the Macintosh, the 68000-based systems-) from the beginning. As you said, Atari initially beat Amiga, specifically from the second half of 1985 to the end of 1987. But the release of the successful Amiga 500 in 1987 finally tipped the balance over to Commodore in term of sales until the end of the existence of both systems.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mr. Undo

[calimero]

On 3/22/2021 at 5:58 PM, zzip said:

 

In Summer 1984, Jack bought the Atari home division, at CES 85, he unveils this new computer as the ST, and it begins shipping that summer/fall.   He tried to get the Amiga chips since he now had that contract, but Commodore swooped in and grabbed them.

do you have reference/source that Jack Tramiel “wanted” Amiga chips?

 

Leonard Trameil and Jack Tramiel (I need to recheck his last interview for 8bit generations, to be sure) but Leonard for sure in interviews said that he discover Atari Inc. - Amiga Corp. Agreements after Commodore sue Shiraz Shivji and few more exCommodore enginners. Trameils need additional negotiation with Warnner Communication to obtain rights on Atari Inc. - Amiga Corp. Agreements to be able to contra sue Commodore (because Commodore effectivly stoped further development of Atari ST!). 
After Atari Corp. sue Commodore, they eventualy continue development of their computers and eventualy come to off-court agreement (Commodore pay all court bills so effectivly they lost case and pay undisclosure amount to Atari Corp. Jack Tramiel in last interview mention “only few millions” because he did not want to destroy his old company). 

 

Quote

In the end it comes down to development time.   The Amiga started development long before the ST was conceived, and the ST still beat the Amiga to market by a few months.   ST was also originally meant to compete with Mac which didn't have those kinds of custom chips either.

Just few hardware advantages of ST over Macintosh:

ST had bigger screen size (12" vs 9"),

bigger resolution (640x400 vs 512x342),

higher refresh rate (71Hz vs 60Hz),

ST have colors,

have fast DMA port (10Mbit/s),

was faster then Mac (Mac stall CPU while displaying screen),

full keyboard,

more ports,

have more memory...

all that for half of the price of Mac in 1985.!!

...and later ST could run Mac software faster than original Mac.
...got “windows” laser printer before any other company (aka “stupid” printer that was controlled by ST) that cost friction of price of other laser printers. 
 

/|\ "Power without Price"!

 

Unfortunately ST hardware did not evolve fast enough (but ST had GREAT applications). 

Edited May 3, 2021 by calimero

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Yeah, known story, and name 'Jackintosh' confirms that ST in 1985 was already way ahead of Macintosh.  Too bad that things changed to opposite later.

Actually, it is SW in what ST was for sure not clearly ahead, especially in beginning.

Amiga case is different story. I tend to think that whole concept of Amiga - as video, gaming computer was not what Jack Tramiel had in mind - he wanted multi purpose, competition to IBM PC computer (ah, and to MAC, of course). For instance, ST is designed by same man who designed gaming oriented C64. So, they (Shiraz Shivji and Jack Tramiel) as leaders of ST project could go on same way - custom chips helping gaming. Instead it they designed custom chips for mass storage, diverse video modes, including 'professional' high res monochrome, musicians, etc.

  Ah, and btw.  DMA port max speed is actually 16 Mbit/sec - from beginning - why they gave lower values is not clear - most likely just because what was attached to it in first 5-6 years was slower, so it never worked close to max possible speed.

 

[calimero]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:11 PM, Mr. Undo said:

Yeah, when Jack Tramiel decided to create a new computer a few months after he left Commodore in January ‘84 and founded Tramel Technology with that objective, many important Commodore employees left also the company and joined him in his new adventure. That happened in April/May 1984. And that was really a hard blow for Commodore. 

 

One month before, in March ‘84, with Warner still owning the Atari’s home division, Amiga and Atari signed a license agreement. Atari gave Amiga $500,000 to finish their custom chipset. Amiga had to pay back that amount by the end of June or Atari would own all of their technology.

 

If you read agreement, you will find that Atari Inc. intention was to:

 

- get working Amiga chipset that they will use in their product. 
 

To be sure that this will happen, they invest 500.000 in Amiga Corp. 
 

Second thing, as insurence that Amiga chipset will be finished, was that if Amiga Corp. is not able to finish chips in agreed time, they will took over project to finish it. 

 

Incompetence of Amiga Corp. team to finish chipset on agreed time is reason why R J Mical went on spreading stories how Jack Tramiel offer 0.99$ per Amiga share... ....

 

To be more precise: this is not “stories” but straight LIES!

 

One could also ask: why Amiga Corp. agree to such “bad”, “evil” (like Amiga team likes to call it)... agreement with Atari Inc.?

 

From many sources you can find that no-one that David M. contacted and present Amiga in computer industry was not interested in Amiga. Steve Jobs said it is over-enginnerd; HP, Epson, Sun(? - I should check on this but you can easely google it) was not interest, Jack Tramiel (while still was in Commodore - said it was interested in Amiga chips but David M. insist that he need to get whole Amiga team which he was not interested)...

 

At the end, it seems that Amiga Corp. could get only one real offer, and it was from their previous employer - Atari Inc. - which does have sense - Atari Inc. know Jay Miner very well since he did design all their previos computers (and this also could be reason why Atari Inc. put that request to be able to continue work on Amiga chipset if Jay Miner team could not finish it on time).  

 

On 4/19/2021 at 9:11 PM, Mr. Undo said:

 

In the period between that license agreement between Atari and Amiga and the acquisition of the Atari’s home division by Tramel Technology on July 2, Amiga and Commodore had been also in contact. Commodore not only saw a fantastic chipset. They desperately needed also a team of engineers. Why not buy the whole lot? It seemed like a win-win business.

 

At this time, Commodore was familiar with Amiga chipset since David M. was in 1983. presenting Amiga to many companies in search for investment money (including Commodore). 

 

On 4/19/2021 at 9:11 PM, Mr. Undo said:

 

On June 29, 1984, just three days before Tramel Technology's acquisition of Atari home business, David Morse, co-founder of Amiga, went to the Atari offices to pay back the $500,000 plus interests with the intention of annulling the contract signed in March. 

Which did not play very well at the end since Commodore (Amiga Corp.) did lost lawsuit for breaching the contract. 
 

but you already cover everything in your post  I just add little more tidbids that I found/read. 

 

On 4/19/2021 at 9:11 PM, Mr. Undo said:

 

It’s true; for Atari at the beginning the main rivals were the Macintosh and the IBM PC, not the Amiga.

Yea, try to say this on EAB forum

 

[zzip]

4 hours ago, calimero said:

do you have reference/source that Jack Tramiel “wanted” Amiga chips?

Well it's like you said..   he "wanted" them because he now had the contract they signed with Atari, and if he had no other purpose for them in mind, he wanted to screw over Commodore.

 

4 hours ago, calimero said:

...got “windows” laser printer before any other company (aka “stupid” printer that was controlled by ST) that cost friction of price of other laser printers. 

And it was actually faster than the other laser printers on the market at the time, because while they had slow processors chugging away at Postscript and composing the image,  the ST could rapidly dump larger quantities of data via DMA port, ready to print.

[calimero]

7 hours ago, zzip said:

Well it's like you said..   he "wanted" them because he now had the contract they signed with Atari, and if he had no other purpose for them in mind, he wanted to screw over Commodore.

Well,

Jack stated that he was interested in Amiga chipset in 1983. (and not in Amiga team) when David M. approach Commodore (ref.: Jack told this in “25th Commodore 64 aniversary”).

Second,

Jack Tramiel did not know for “Atari Inc. - Amiga Corp.” agreement until Leonard Tramiel discover check on 500.000$ and that was AFTER Jack Tramiel took over part of Atari Inc. and form Atari Corp. 

 

Final,

Jack use “Atari Inc - Amiga Corp” agreement to contra-sue Commodore to be able to continue work on ST (and Commodore on Amiga). 
 

Postmortem,

Jack told that he did not want to ruin Commodore with that lawsuit so he just ask few millions from Commodore... (last Jack T. interview for 8bitgeneration).