The real fight Atari versus Commodore

[JKK]

Hi,

Let me allow to invite you to watch a small video about Atari and Commodore.

 

*** The fight lasting since ages between Atari supporters and Commodore lovers! The only such a video on YouTube! Technical specifications! Emotions! Interesting facts! Games comparison! Can there be a winner? An amazing return to the old days for sure! ***

 

 

P.S.The video contains two hidden messages? Who will find and decrypt/decode them?

[youxia]

I stopped reading at the "the only such video on youtube". Oxymoron

[+x=usr(1536)]

And next year we'll be able to celebrate 40 years of flogging this horse!  Yay!

[Goochman]

Omg that video is horrible...........esp the section comparing the 800XL CPU to a Ryzen 7............

[gilsaluki]

I couldn't watch it long.  Trameeel from Poland..... Sorry, but that is a waste of precious time.

[emkay]

I wonder if this video has been based on missing knowledge or is it C64 biased by intention?

 

Not to tell that the "Powerful" part of Starraiders 2 has been shown on the C64, and some pausing on the Atari.

There actually have been several releases with special upgrades on the C64.

128K RAM on the C128 is not for the C64 mode, while the 128K RAM is in direct compatibility available on the 130XE.

   

The biggest laugh I always have, if people show about the specs of POKEY. "No modulation" ?

 

So how do you name that:

 

 

 

 

And why is there no comparision using Rescue on Fractalus, and, ok some game like Armalyte?

[Tuxon86]

Hi,

 

If it was your first time at doing a Youtube video, and not in your native language, then a big bravo to you, as I couldn't find the courage to do one myself.

I'd like to point out though that, as others have pointed out, the comparaison to modern tech is not necessary at all. It only distract from the subject.

The chess games was a good idea, even though it is more a test of the quality of the software than of the hardware it runs on. But I did like the games comparaison that you used.

 

In short, I did enjoy the video. 

[Mclaneinc]

I liked the guys other videos about Polish games on the Atari but this poorly put together comparison stuff is not a thread we need (my opinion)...

 

These constant C64 vs Atari threads are pretty pointless...Just play the software...

[JKK]

Guys, thanks a lot for these comments. I expected that this video will cause a lot of emotions. Sometimes comments are nice to hear, sometimes they are more challenging. But what is very good that they are given to help.

 

@youxia, a bit of marketing is not bad. Especially that I’ve watched many Atari/Commodore comparison videos but I wasn’t able to find any trying to compare both computers technical specification step by step. So from my perspective there is no any other video on youtube. If you know it, please share. Moreover I’m joining technical details comparison with just games comparison.

 

@Goochman, why it’s horrible to compare Atari processor with Ryzen7? Sure I know it would be better to compare MIPS (have you noticed that Atari computer „suggest this” in one moment in the screen?) or even the time of execution of the same algorithms on both computers. However that’s probably a topic for another video. I have to limit time I spent on one video especially I’m doing this in my free time not earning even one cent. And believe me or not, but preparing each video requires a lot of time. Sure it’s high simplification but it’s good to know what huge difference is between Atari and today’s computers. And it’s probably not the question of exact comparison but rather of some kind of magnitude order.

 

@gilsaluki, I’m happy that you learn that Tramiel was born in Poland and that the first years of his life he spent in this country.

 

@emkay, I wanted to compare the oldest games. Sure you can go further and try to compare even titles created a year or two. But I wanted to show what was available in the first years after computers were released on the market. Concerning C128 I didn’t want to go deeply in that subject but it’s clearly stated that the construction was much different to C64 and that you can’t compare C128 with Atari 130XE. Concerning „no modulation” - with sound I don’t feel too comfortable. I tried to get some additional information but when I asked about details not so many people were ready to help. I wanted to write „no ring modulation” comparing to C64 but by error I wrote „no modulation” (please compare this line with C64 line). Is that true that POKEY doesn’t have ring modulation (by hardware, I don’t mean you can’t get it by software)? If you are so nice, please explain to me and to all guys this subject in details. Just a bug.

 

@Tuxon86, thanks for nice words. That’s not the first video but one of the firsts.

 

@Mclaneinc, I presented few games available for both computers in this video for comparison.

 

Concluding thanks a lot for all these comments. If you can find more errors please let me know.

Edited March 21, 2021 by JKK

[emkay]

JKK you never asked me

 

POKEY is based on modulations. You have just to sort it out. No Software needed. Just the software needs to be able to set POKEY's registers right. With the LSSS Player, there ia almost no CPU needed to do that. 

 

This misleading of POKEY's capabilities is based on the name giving of the built in features by Atari itself. It's very annoying.

Here a different example.

 

 

 

[JKK]

@emkay, It's obvious for every computer guy that POKEY has modulation as otherwise it would not be able to produce any sound. The queston is if it has hardware "ring modulation". Could you clearly answer on this question?

Edited March 21, 2021 by JKK

[emkay]

Just now, JKK said:

@emkay, It's obvious for every computer guy that POKEY has modulation as otherwise it would not be able to produce any sound. The queston is if it has hardware "ring modulation". Could you clearly answer on this question?

You know what "Ring Modulation" means exactly?

[emkay]

The 2nd tune I showed, uses actually Ring Modulation. 

It's just that POKEY only has square waves and the Polycounters. SID has actually a Triangle wave and can do Ring Modulations with that.  So it might sound more impressive at some points. Particular at low tones.

POKEY can do Ring Modulation using the Polycounters, making it possible to do sounding intervals 

[JKK]

@emkay, and the winner is.... YOU!

 

I just red few pages on Internet and I'm very stupid guy here. You are fully right. Thanks for this remark and pointing this.

 

Ok I will delete old version of video and will publish a new one, even if it's quite time consuming process and it makes a bit angry my subscribers. It's a bit pity that youtube doesn't allow to update videos with new version. However quality first. Btw, can you see any other errors I could correct at once? I don't mean things which we could discuss it it's good or bad, but rather pure errors which are obvious?

[emkay]

1 minute ago, JKK said:

@emkay, and the winner is.... YOU!

 

I just red few pages on Internet and I'm very stupid guy here. You are fully right. Thanks for this remark and pointing this.

 

Ok I will delete old version of video and will publish a new one, even if it's quite time consuming process and it makes a bit angry my subscribers. It's a bit pity that youtube doesn't allow to update videos with new version. However quality first. Btw, can you see any other errors I could correct at once? I don't mean things which we could discuss it it's good or bad, but rather pure errors which are obvious?

wait wait wait

[emkay]

For something bad , your video is right there. The Mistake by Atari made this "Reality of the Market back then" .

[emkay]

It's not your fault.

But you could make a Video , keeping more achieved knowledge of today. 

[JKK]

@emkay, could you be more clear here please? I'm a bit confused....

[Mazzspeed]

Comparisons are pointless. I say own one of each complete with modern enhancements, they're both great machines in their own way.

[emkay]

6 minutes ago, JKK said:

@emkay, could you be more clear here please? I'm a bit confused....

Atari wrote into the books that POKEY has some "high pass filter" . This is correct in one specific term. 

But in real, it is a modulation feature that allows to do Pulse Width Manipulations AND Ring Modulation. 

For some weird cause, they didn't know that for themselves.

 

So, your video is right about the timespan, when both computers had been compared to be sold on the market back then.  

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by emkay

[JKK]

@emkay, so do you think that I should correct something in the video or can I keep it as it is?

 

Concerning this high pass filter, it's some kind of pseudo filter being some kind of logic gate and not true filter like in SID AFAIK.

[emkay]

Just now, JKK said:

@emkay, so do you think that I should correct something in the video or can I keep it as it is?

 

Concerning this high pass filter, it's some kind of pseudo filter being some kind of logic gate and not true filter like in SID AFAIK.

 

If the "filter" is activated, it puts both channels "negative" together, So, if you set it to one pitch off, it plays some "doubled frequency" . That's the "High Pass Filter" by definition. Odd, isn't it?

 

If you play both channels at the same frequency, a whole new world of sound happens to POKEY. 

 

 

POKEY HAS all needed modulation features, but no real filters.

 

Funny enough that the 4 channels allow some "doppler" FX that slightly work like a real filter, but that's an other story

 

About the sound, there is no need to change the video. 

It's true , in the present of that old days.  

 

 

[JKK]

AFAIK SID had analogue filters which gave much more possibilities, is that right? However as I said I don't feel very strong in audio.

 

Concerning modulation, I believe it's also how do u look on that. Let's take for example triangle waveform. Someone can say that POKEY doesn't assure this as there is no typical triangle waveform generator. On the other hand you can achieve similar waveform using distortions. Thus it's the question if POKEY has it or no? It's not easy to present everything in such a short film because 1) I should be good expert in everything 2) it would take ages 3) not everyone would understand this. Thus it's always some kind of simplification.

 

However I really appreciate this discussion. And I'm happy to learn new things.

[Mazzspeed]

Undocumented discoveries have been made on both platforms. Personally I don't see the point to the video, the battle is over, the war's now ancient history. You may as well stick to the base platforms as the designers intended them to be used or the video is going to become messy - As it is: I don't see the relevance to the Ryzen considering 8bit machines.

 

Threads like this one never end well..

[JKK]

@Mazzspeed well I hoped that you will feel some "irony" in this title and in all that story. I come to this from some distance not treating this war very serious. You could discover this watching carefully the film and solving two small tasks hidden in that. However I think it might be interesting to compare both computers looking on them from some distance.