The real fight Atari versus Commodore

[+CharlieChaplin]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

And just for a bit of fun, and a sincere effort to bring this (bizarre) main topic back in focus. here's how it may look:

 

IBM:

 

Atari / Colleen:

 

 

??

 

Choose wisely!

 

 

 

Let me have a threesome with IBM and Atari then...

 

[carlsson]

7 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

Let me have a threesome with IBM and Atari...

 

I remember going through some computer magazine from the late 80's with a summary of PC's and clones on the market. I distinctly remember the Atari PC1 was the cheapest of them all, below the noname systems they had included in the comparison. Some of the nonames were a little hotter spec'd though, but even considering 8088 based no-frills systems, it was interesting to see that Atari was the most affordable the magazine had found.

Edited March 27, 2021 by carlsson

[Mazzspeed]

8 minutes ago, carlsson said:

 

I remember going through some computer magazine from the late 80's with a summary of PC's and clones on the market. I distinctly remember the Atari PC1 was the cheapest of them all, below the noname systems they had included in the comparison. Some of the nonames were a little hotter spec'd though, but even considering 8088 based no-frills systems, it was interesting to see that Atari was the most affordable the magazine had found.

I seem to remember Tandy making great PC clones?

[carlsson]

Didn't we dig into Tandy 1000 land earlier in this thread, or was that somewhere else? Yeah, they did but apparently not cheaper than Tramieltari.

[emkay]

@Yautja

 

 

About Ring Modulation and Pulse Width Modulation:

 

This is what is reachable with the available software(standard VBI speed tone generator programming), if you want to check.

The full tune is in my "Nothing Special" thread. 

 

 

[tschak909]

On 3/25/2021 at 4:13 PM, Mazzspeed said:

There's tonnes of homebrew software and new games being released. As stated, CSDB is a great site for this.

 

Using the 1541 UII+ with Ethernet and UltiTerm 2.4 you can connect to Retrocampus and download software from CSDB to your C64 directly. You don't need to mod your C64 internally to have a great machine, all you need is a 1541 UII+, that gives you: Dual cycle accurate 1541's with the capability to load alternate roms via .bin files as well as capability for the addition of virtual RAMBoards (up to 40k) - Storage is provided via USB and you can plug a USB HDD or SSD into the UII+ as well as optical drives, DMA loading as well as a software IEC hard drive and print to PDF functionality (I believe Commodore actually had print to file before Atari), JiffyDOS 6.01 as well as the ability to load alternate kernel's via .bin files, an REU expansion up to 16MB to Commodore specifications, FTP support meaning you can transfer files directly to your C64 from your PC, Telnet support meaning you can control your C64 remotely, a paged RAM expansion to Georam specifications, TAP (tape) file loading, CRT (cartridge loading), the provision of a number of freezer/fastloader carts including the Final Cartridge III (all supplied with the device), dual SID support as well as Ultimate Audio with the provision to playback up to 8 channel MOD files 'perfectly' and Ethernet support with the networking stack implemented in hardware - You can run an alternate kernel (JiffyDOS), two cycle accurate 1541's with alternate roms (Say: S-JiffyDOS as it's the fastest), a freezer cart and a game based on a CRT file (so emulating a cartridge, right down to the fact that it's still there if you press reset) and a 16MB REU expansion as well as a 16MB ram drive all at once. Furthermore, drive speeds are comparable to the A8 running SIDE 3, Ultimate 1MB and SDX, as I've highlighted in other posts. What A8 users are getting with FujiNet, Commodore users had for years prior. Development on the Commodore platform has reached a plateau as all of this has been available for Commodore users since ~2008, there's little else that really needs to be achieved (although that FPGA VIC-II sounds tasty). However, software and new games are constantly being released, I'd have to say the C64 is probably still the most popular 8bit software and game development platform. It's the one retro machine that you can still build from brand new parts today (excluding the keyboard at this point in time) - I have a clear 64C case made using factory tooling in 2018 that one day I plan on fitting a brand new Ultimate 64 board to for 48Mhz 6510 goodness as well a Dolphin DOS and virtual parallel interface's from the virtual 1541's...

 

Yes, there are a number of demo's available under the Commodore platform, as the VIC-II as well as the SID have capabilities that allow for some very impressive demonstrations of what can be achieved when pushing the C64 chipset beyond anything it was even intended to do. Furthermore, this is a good thing as a number of demoscene discoveries actually filter down to games (VSP, sprite multiplexing techniques, SID advancements using little CPU overhead). Disappointingly, some of the comments I read here just highlight that certain A8 users are fairly clueless, what they believe they know about the C64 vs reality are two polar extremes.

 

The only reason for the success of PC clones was the fact they were essentially based on an open platform, there wasn't a lot about them at the time that was in any way innovative - But they were stupidly expensive and it took until the mid 90s until they even began to see widespread adoption by home users.

 

 

With regards to #FujiNet, you're talking out of your arse, and have absolutely no idea of what the ESP32 on the device can actually do.

 

e.g. Can any C= device handle TLS or SSH crypto?

 

do they have protocol offloading?

 

So please, stop acting like an expert, and pay attention to what I've been showing.

 

No. 

 

-Thom

Edited April 6, 2021 by tschak909

[svenski]

 

 

 

 

I don't know why this thread even started, we all know that the king of hill is the Oric-1.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mazzspeed]

6 hours ago, tschak909 said:

With regards to #FujiNet, you're talking out of your arse, and have absolutely no idea of what the ESP32 on the device can actually do.

 

e.g. Can any C= device handle TLS or SSH crypto?

 

do they have protocol offloading?

 

So please, stop acting like an expert, and pay attention to what I've been showing.

 

No. 

 

-Thom

In relation to your comment, stop taking things so personally, I'm open to discussion and was merely mentioning the features as I see them - I do plan on getting a FujiNet BTW and can state that you are taking my comments out of context, I was merely stating that the Commodore platform has been doing a great many things for years now that many A8 users don't appear to be even aware the Commodore platform is capable of.

 

It's impressive that FujiNet can handle TLS or SSH crypto, I personally don't know why an 8bit machine needs such a feature, and I never stated I was an expert on the chipset used in the 1541 UII+ so I have no idea whether the FPGA can do what you're implying. Perhaps you could elaborate in a friendly manner?

 

In terms of protocol offloading, yes I believe such a feature is supported  - I think it would virtually be a necessity regarding an 8bit machine with either an Ethernet or WiFi interface incorporating a network stack, I can't imagine a 6502/10 handling such duties terribly well and my C64 has an IP address and communicates via Ethernet just fine - I've been on IRC using UltiTerm's IRC client not a problem in the world, and communicate with BBS's via the Ethernet connection using ACIA/Swiftlink emulation on the 1541 UII+ at very impressive speeds.

 

As stated, I also remote control my C64 via telnet with the 1541 UII+ interface replicated perfectly on the telnet client, and transfer files to and from my C64 using FTP - Both of which requires the networking stack as implemented in hardware via the 1541 UII+. Even my WiModem has a hardware networking stack as far as I'm aware, communicating via the C64's User Port - These things have been available for a very long time now on the Commodore platform, but are limited to 9600 baud, the Ethernet port on the 1541 UII+ smashes 9600 baud - Although I still use my WiModem for connecting to BBS's using VT102 or ANSI emulation in software 80 columns.

 

I'm not too sure how you concluded via 13 words in a sentence that I haven't been keeping up with your development on FujiNet? I'm also not too sure why you took those 13 words so personally? As stated, I don't proclaim to be an expert on microcontrollers or FPGA, but I'm open to friendly discussion and like learning. I love the Z80 emulation on the FujiNet and thought it was an impressive idea.

 

The Commodore platform used to utilize a device called the Flyer, which I always thought was a very impressive device - However it never really took off, Commodore users simply don't appear to be interested in loading/saving programs directly from websites. Although it has to be stated, that was just one of the Flyer's many features. I think the 1541 Ultimate came along and stole the Flyer's thunder.

 

http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/

Edited April 6, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[+x=usr(1536)]

32 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

It's impressive that FujiNet can handle TLS or SSH crypto, I personally don't know why an 8bit machine needs such a feature

I can think of a few reasons:

• Significantly reducing the risk of replay / rewrite attacks, particularly for traffic going over the Internet
• Reduction of ISP (or other 3rd-party) traffic snooping
• Providing a way to transfer data between a FujiNet and non-Atari host without needing to physically remove media from the FujiNet
• A framework for certificate-based authentication opens up a number of possibilities

Bear in mind that the A8 really only benefits indirectly from the crypto, since the FujiNet is just presenting the A8 with an interface onto local and remote resources.  The FujiNet is the real beneficiary in this scenario.

[tschak909]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

In relation to your comment, stop taking things so personally, I'm open to discussion and was merely mentioning the features as I see them - I do plan on getting a FujiNet BTW and can state that you are taking my comments out of context, I was merely stating that the Commodore platform has been doing a great many things for years now that many A8 users don't appear to be even aware the Commodore platform is capable of.

 

It's impressive that FujiNet can handle TLS or SSH crypto, I personally don't know why an 8bit machine needs such a feature, and I never stated I was an expert on the chipset used in the 1541 UII+ so I have no idea whether the FPGA can do what you're implying. Perhaps you could elaborate in a friendly manner?

 

In terms of protocol offloading, yes I believe such a feature is supported  - I think it would virtually be a necessity regarding an 8bit machine with either an Ethernet or WiFi interface incorporating a network stack, I can't imagine a 6502/10 handling such duties terribly well and my C64 has an IP address and communicates via Ethernet just fine - I've been on IRC using UltiTerm's IRC client not a problem in the world, and communicate with BBS's via the Ethernet connection using ACIA/Swiftlink emulation on the 1541 UII+ at very impressive speeds.

 

As stated, I also remote control my C64 via telnet with the 1541 UII+ interface replicated perfectly on the telnet client, and transfer files to and from my C64 using FTP - Both of which requires the networking stack as implemented in hardware via the 1541 UII+. Even my WiModem has a hardware networking stack as far as I'm aware, communicating via the C64's User Port - These things have been available for a very long time now on the Commodore platform, but are limited to 9600 baud, the Ethernet port on the 1541 UII+ smashes 9600 baud - Although I still use my WiModem for connecting to BBS's using VT102 or ANSI emulation in software 80 columns.

 

I'm not too sure how you concluded via 13 words in a sentence that I haven't been keeping up with your development on FujiNet? I'm also not too sure why you took those 13 words so personally? As stated, I don't proclaim to be an expert on microcontrollers or FPGA, but I'm open to friendly discussion and like learning. I love the Z80 emulation on the FujiNet and thought it was an impressive idea.

 

The Commodore platform used to utilize a device called the Flyer, which I always thought was a very impressive device - However it never really took off, Commodore users simply don't appear to be interested in loading/saving programs directly from websites. Although it has to be stated, that was just one of the Flyer's many features. I think the 1541 Ultimate came along and stole the Flyer's thunder.

 

http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/

Because the protocol functions are off-loaded and abstracted to operating system structures, it is possible to talk to each protocol in a very clean and consistent manner.

 

e.g.

 

Not only can you run programs directly off a web server or ftp server:

RUN"N:HTTP://FUJINET-TESTING.IRATA.ONLINE/"
RUN"N:FTP://FTP.PIGWA.NET/stuff/collections/holmes cd/Holmes 2/Atari Archives/Antic Files/88/SUNSET.BAS"

Not only can you easily connect to raw TCP and UDP sockets simply by changing the protocol identifier....

 

but it becomes very easy to write programs that deal with complex protocol interactions, such as POSTing to an HTTP server:

0 DIM A$(128)
10 OPEN #1,13,0,"N:HTTP://POSTMAN.COM/?test"
20 XIO 77,#1,13,4,"N:":REM Send post data
30 PRINT #1;"Some post data"
40 XIO 77,#1,13,1,"N:":REM Retrieve headers
50 TRAP 70
60 INPUT #1,A$:? A$:GOTO 60
70 XIO 77,#1,13,0,"N:":REM Retrieve body
80 TRAP 100
90 INPUT #1,A$:? A$:GOTO 90
100 CLOSE #1:END

Or to do things like:

 

* JSON parsing and queries

* XML parsing and queries

* Complex authorization schemes like OAuth

 

Suddenly, when you combine the ability to properly handle crypto, the ability to parse complex input data and present it cleanly to the Atari over a standardized I/O channel, you have a network adapter that can actually do _real_ network clients, e.g. Twitter, Slack, Facebook, etc. without having to rely on hokey dipstick proxy services or cut down versions of protocols.

 

And to top it all off? IT'S COMING TO THE COMMODORE 64, TOO. (The IEC bus just took its first breaths a few weeks ago.), oh yeah, and you get CP/M emulation for free.

 

So...

 

I get _really_ irked when I've spent the better part of a year and a half now making a usable viable network adapter, and doing non-stop posts of status reports, and videos showing what is and will be possible, only to have people vastly mischaracterize what has been done.

 

-Thom

Edited April 6, 2021 by tschak909

[Faicuai]

32 minutes ago, tschak909 said:

you have a network adapter that can actually do _real_ network clients, e.g. Twitter, Slack, Facebook, etc. without having to rely on hokey dipstick proxy services or cut down versions of protocols

Thanks!

 

That pretty much sums it up quite clear.

 

I would be nice one day (just for the heck of it) being able to check basic email, text-messaging through common apps. or interfaces, out into the world. A little "Sent from Atari 800/1200XL" signature would be quite a shocker to anyone reading out there... ?

 

Also, Thanks God we do not need to ponder here why or how we are actually relying and using our 1.8 Mhz 6502s (and our existing OS facilities) for something useful, too. ??

 

0 DIM A$(128)
10 OPEN #1,13,0,"N:HTTP://POSTMAN.COM/?test"
20 XIO 77,#1,13,4,"N:":REM Send post data
30 PRINT #1;"Some post data"
40 XIO 77,#1,13,1,"N:":REM Retrieve headers
50 TRAP 70
60 INPUT #1,A$:? A$:GOTO 60
70 XIO 77,#1,13,0,"N:":REM Retrieve body
80 TRAP 100
90 INPUT #1,A$:? A$:GOTO 90
100 CLOSE #1:END

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Faicuai

[Mazzspeed]

47 minutes ago, tschak909 said:

Because the protocol functions are off-loaded and abstracted to operating system structures, it is possible to talk to each protocol in a very clean and consistent manner.

 

e.g.

 

Not only can you run programs directly off a web server or ftp server:

RUN"N:HTTP://FUJINET-TESTING.IRATA.ONLINE/"
RUN"N:FTP://FTP.PIGWA.NET/stuff/collections/holmes cd/Holmes 2/Atari Archives/Antic Files/88/SUNSET.BAS"

Not only can you easily connect to raw TCP and UDP sockets simply by changing the protocol identifier....

 

but it becomes very easy to write programs that deal with complex protocol interactions, such as POSTing to an HTTP server:

0 DIM A$(128)
10 OPEN #1,13,0,"N:HTTP://POSTMAN.COM/?test"
20 XIO 77,#1,13,4,"N:":REM Send post data
30 PRINT #1;"Some post data"
40 XIO 77,#1,13,1,"N:":REM Retrieve headers
50 TRAP 70
60 INPUT #1,A$:? A$:GOTO 60
70 XIO 77,#1,13,0,"N:":REM Retrieve body
80 TRAP 100
90 INPUT #1,A$:? A$:GOTO 90
100 CLOSE #1:END

Or to do things like:

 

* JSON parsing and queries

* XML parsing and queries

* Complex authorization schemes like OAuth

 

Suddenly, when you combine the ability to properly handle crypto, the ability to parse complex input data and present it cleanly to the Atari over a standardized I/O channel, you have a network adapter that can actually do _real_ network clients, e.g. Twitter, Slack, Facebook, etc. without having to rely on hokey dipstick proxy services or cut down versions of protocols.

 

And to top it all off? IT'S COMING TO THE COMMODORE 64, TOO. (The IEC bus just took its first breaths a few weeks ago.), oh yeah, and you get CP/M emulation for free.

 

So...

 

I get _really_ irked when I've spent the better part of a year and a half now making a usable viable network adapter, and doing non-stop posts of status reports, and videos showing what is and will be possible, only to have people vastly mischaracterize what has been done.

 

-Thom

OK, interesting. I'm sure the 1541 UII+ could also implement crypto if there was a market for it. Personally, I'm not really interested in accessing FB even on a PC, or Twitter for that matter...Or Slack. But it's exciting nonetheless and your comments regarding the implementation for a FujiNet for the C64 is very interesting!

 

Perhaps one day I'll access my email via either a C64 or A8! That would be sorta cool in a storage hungry sort of way as I never delete my emails...

 

Once again, I meant no disrespect. The Commodore 64 has simply experienced oodles of development over the span of a decade or even more now, and some features the A8 is getting now have been available on the C64 (with some implementations failing to gain widespread adoption, which is unfortunate) for quite a while now. And it's not because people simply view the C64 as a gaming platform, as there's tonnes of talented hardware developers/coders developing for the C64 as a productivity platform - Not that I really class retro 8bit machines as outright productivity platforms, however I do like using them for far more than just gaming.

 

Although...I am hooked on Sam's Journey and think it's an awesome 8bit title everyone should enjoy - Product bias regarding our old retro machines is silly.

[Tuxon86]

As a new Fujinet user and a U2+ user for a couple of months, going with my personal experience here, I find the U2+ a bit more user friendly then the Fujinet out of the box. Said box includes a basic manual for my U2+ while the Fuji as a small card showing where the switches are. 
 

on the U2+ all I had to do was loading my USB key with .d64/.g64/.tap/.cart,hook up the audio jack, tape adapter and network cable and I’m good to go. On the Fujinet, I can run some xex some of the time, but I can’t load my big bundle of game atr since Fujinet hangs trying to process the list.

The networking would be cool if I could make it work. None of the available online terminal program loads correctly, dropping my at a ready prompt after loading... In fact the only program I could start remotely was copy 2000 which I mounted on d2: then tried to copy it on my working 1050 on d1: and it failed...

 

I understand that we’re comparing a new product under development versus an established one here and I can live with that. But I must admit that the U2+ is a more complete solution for the time being.

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, tschak909 said:

hokey dipstick proxy services or cut down versions of protocols.

That's a little harsh and uncalled for, when we need a client to connect to.  I'm not connecting directly to my google drive with the Atari.  Why is their such hostility towards or about other products?  I haven't seen anything mazzspeed has posted that indicates he's shitting on your golden goose egg.  If there's a bit of friendly competition between products, both sides can win.  When we throw the toys out of the pram and kick and scream, it really looks a bit shit on our part.

[Faicuai]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

That's a little harsh and uncalled for,

 

Now it turns out that protocols, services and clients have feelings, too... Can't imagine them getting slaughtered... by words...

 

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, tschak909 said:

And to top it all off? IT'S COMING TO THE COMMODORE 64, TOO. (The IEC bus just took its first breaths a few weeks ago.), oh yeah, and you get CP/M emulation for free.

[+Stephen]

Just now, Faicuai said:

 

Now it turns out that protocols, services and clients have feelings, too... Can't imagine them getting slaughtered... by words...

 

Two managers, licking each others bungholes, screaming at people below them who dare pose a question.  Wow - what a sensitive bunch we have become.

[Faicuai]

14 minutes ago, Stephen said:

That's a little harsh

First this...

 

And then...

4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

licking each others bungholes

 

Should we call it... hilariously incoherent?  ??

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Faicuai

[Mazzspeed]

34 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said:

The networking would be cool if I could make it work. None of the available online terminal program loads correctly, dropping my at a ready prompt after loading... In fact the only program I could start remotely was copy 2000 which I mounted on d2: then tried to copy it on my working 1050 on d1: and it failed...

Really?

 

Well this concerns me because drive mounting aside, this is basically what I want the product for...

 

On my 1541 UII+ I just boot up UltiTerm 2.4 or CCGMS 2021 and I'm good to go? Is this not the case regarding FujiNet?

[tschak909]

 

22 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Really?

 

Well this concerns me because drive mounting aside, this is basically what I want the product for...

 

On my 1541 UII+ I just boot up UltiTerm 2.4 or CCGMS 2021 and I'm good to go? Is this not the case regarding FujiNet?

I do not know why he's having issues, but I will work with him to resolve them.

 

The MODEM emulates an Atari 850 interface (complete with firmware loading), with attached modem, and any terminal program that works with the 850 will also work with the #FujiNet. full stop. We spent the better part of 9 months working on the MODEM code (tracking down and fixing even obscure bugs in the ESP32 lwIP firmware in the process)

 

As for previous comments, I was addressing things said about the FujiNet versus the UII+ that simply were not true.

 

-Thom

 

[Faicuai]

What a "great" and "influential" piece of work, for all of us to look forward when running Fujinet (or similar "competing" hardware):

 

 

 

 

My goodness... I am sure there's a better future out there.

[Mazzspeed]

5 hours ago, tschak909 said:

As for previous comments, I was addressing things said about the FujiNet versus the UII+ that simply were not true.

I mainly spoke about the feature set of the 1541 UII+ and how broad it was, I briefly mentioned FujiNet and even then mentioned nothing specific about it's feature set. Therefore, I fail to see just what it was, specifically, that I could possibly have said that was untrue?

 

With respect, it seems like you simply flew off the handle with no reason to do so.

4 hours ago, Faicuai said:

What a "great" and "influential" piece of work, for all of us to look forward when running Fujinet (or similar "competing" hardware):

What's wrong with it? I'd love to know. What's with all the chick pictures?

 

There's also UltiTerm 2.4 that comes with the UltiChat IRC client and Striketerm. My preference is Striketerm when using my user port WiModem and it has a fantastic feature set. UltiTerm is my preference regarding PETSCII BBS's.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[Dinadan67]

9 hours ago, Tuxon86 said:

I understand that we’re comparing a new product under development versus an established one here and I can live with that. But I must admit that the U2+ is a more complete solution for the time being.

The U2+ does not try to bring full network access to the C64, it is a storage solution more like the AVG-Cart+SIO-cable. It does have an ethernet port with very limited functionality for controlling the device remotely.

[Mazzspeed]

18 minutes ago, Dinadan67 said:

The U2+ does not try to bring full network access to the C64, it is a storage solution more like the AVG-Cart+SIO-cable. It does have an ethernet port with very limited functionality for controlling the device remotely.

This isn't true. Initially this was the case, since around firmware release 3.7 full Swiftlink emulation has been added to the device along with the existing inbuilt networking stack. The networking stack has also been improved as initially FTP was unstable, now it works fine, I've transmitted GB's of data via FTP without an issue in the world. When I connect to BBS's or IRC via my C64, I do so via Ethernet and the IP address and subnet mask are reported under UltiTerm. The speeds are actually quite impressive depending on the machine at the other end, IRC flies.

 

Every feature and possibly some I missed in the post where I was accused of talking out my ass regarding FujiNet is available on the 1541 Ultimate II+. It is quite literally the one device no Commodore user should be without and really the only device they need.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[Mclaneinc]

16 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

1541 Ultimate II+. It is quite literally the one device no Commodore user should be without and really the only device they need.

Not involved in the rest of the discussion, I know nothing of Fujinet bar the basics..

 

But the 1541++ truly is the best bit of kit a C64 owner could have, there's some cart types it can't run (yet) but apart from boiling an egg it can do pretty much anything a C64 user would want..

 

The nearest we have on the Atari is the glorious AVG but there's no direct networking on that nor extra pokey emulation..Both brilliant bits of carts tho..As is the Side3