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JKK

The real fight Atari versus Commodore

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9 hours ago, tschak909 said:

Part of the reason FujiNet exists, is literally to provide a common form of connectivity between 8-bit systems, and bring them together. The Commodore 64 version is starting to work, and I am hoping someone will take it and bridge it at the very least, to the Apple // SmartPort.

 

As part of the process, we are truly understanding the commonalities and differences between these different systems.

 

(This was, also, ironically, the reason I founded the irata.online PLATO system.)

 

-Thom

 

This is cool Thom! Good job.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Of course it is (a storage processor / server, as described before), even running its own "DOS" command set and a lengthy host of other features (!) 

 

There is essentially nothing wrong with that. The point here is what it really is, and at the end it does not matter who like such definition or not.

 

I would like to see the actual results of a timed or looped RANDOM-sector read directed from the host, via DMA transfers and without them, via DOS or OS. Based on that, we could also look at a simple DOS backup from of a folder located in floppy-image onto fixed storage (HD), including files and folder re-creation and attributes management (a pretty mundane, routine operation on my end, for instance).

 

That would be really nice to see. 😎

 

 

 

I think that it would match the timings of an ideal 1541 for compatibility purposes (although after 30 years of use i don't think a real one would meet 'ideal' any more)

Edited by sack-c0s
quoted wrong post like some kind of an idiot...

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18 hours ago, Faicuai said:

 

 

Well, if I read correctly, it is essentially a joke, that's why you missed it:

 

"The geoRAM is a banked system. The registers at $dfff and $dffe select which 256 bytes page is visible in the $de00-$deff range. The $dfff register selects a 16KB block out of the total memory, the register at $dffe selects the actual 256 bytes page within the selected block. Valid values for a standard geoRAM are 0-31 for the block register and 0-63 for the window register. It is possible to extend the block register to 8-bit to create a 4MB "

 

Reminds me a bit of 800's $C000-$CFFF older banked ram expansions, but 4 Kbytes at a time. 

 

Unless you can actually bank in/out larger ram-blocks from the system bus, it seems it would take a brave soul to develop a complex app. like The Last Word, 256-bytes at a time... Unless, of course, we also beed another Banked-RAM literacy crusade from C64 Templar Knights... 😂

 

That would explain why people aren't talking about it - i appreciate the feature being there for compatibility but the original feature itself does feel a bit useless. To be fair banking out 256 bytes could be useful if you did it on pages 0 and 1 because it would help with task switching...

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, sack-c0s said:

 

That would explain why people aren't talking about it - i appreciate the feature being there for compatibility but the original feature itself does feel a bit useless. To be fair banking out 256 bytes could be useful if you did it on pages 0 and 1 because it would help with task switching...

Bear in mind, that's just how Georam was implemented by Berkley Softworks. It was essentially an inexpensive ram upgrade to speed up GEOS, however other software could make use of it, I'm just not too sure many software packages actually did. Banked ram is easier to implement in hardware, but it's not as powerful.

 

The only reason why a page of 256 bytes was used is because that's addressing space reserved for use by external I/O devices, so there was less chance of issues when other cartridges were in use. However, you have to think of the 256 byte page residing at I/O 1 as a sliding window into the Georam's memory. Almost like a film roll transferred onto VHS. (quite a handy analogy considering we are talking about old tech). I also tend to believe that 256 bytes may have been perfect considering the expansion was primarily designed to be used with GEOS. The expansion is fast enough that I believe people have used it to stream WAV files.

 

Commodore's REU's were much better devices, much more powerful with far more benefits that were never really utilized or even realized until recently. By using the MOS REC chip as basically it's own special purpose processor via the cartridge/bus port's DMA line, you could shuffle data into and out of the C64 own internal banked (via three of the 6510's control lines) and very versatile onboard memory at blazing speed - The issue wasn't really halting the CPU as it all happened so fast, the issue was more the VIC-II chip asserting bus access due to badlines, however the REC chip was well timed to deal with this behavior.

 

As I stated earlier, you also have to consider Ultimax mode as well as the PLA when it comes to addressing and DMA. The whole process is quite versatile.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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Btw, do you think it would be worth to prepare second part of this video? If yes, what areas should be touched or extended comparing the first video?

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I think you should let this thread die rather than promoting more back and forth crap.

 

I mean seriously? You're asking in an Atari forum what should be included in a video comparison of Atari vs Commodore 8 bit platforms - Did you not think for one second there may be a little bias involved here? Bias that results in misinformation due to an outright unfamiliarization (dare I say unhealthy hate) in some cases for the opposing platform. I mean, I just read, in these forums, the C64 only has 14 address lines available to the cartridge port, the schematic I have here clearly shows A0 through to A15.

 

At this point, bumping a thread that was thankfully laid to rest in an obvious attempt to reignite an Atari vs Commodore debate, I'm going to state you're outright trolling considering this is an Atari forum. My advice? Ask the same question in a retro forum that isn't platform antagonistic, perhaps r/retrobattlestations.

 

Geezus.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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Yeah, I know there is some risk asking here. However no risk no fun. And I might ask the same question of Commodore forum and then combine two different point of views. It might make sense...

 

Trolling... eh.... Following this way of thinking almost everyone here is doing some trolling...

Edited by JKK

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22 minutes ago, JKK said:

Yeah, I know there is some risk asking here. However no risk no fun. And I might ask the same question of Commodore forum and then combine two different point of views. It might make sense...

 

Trolling... eh.... Following this way of thinking almost everyone here is doing some trolling...

You think this is fun? All I see is you trying to razz up the crowds in order to promote your video's.

 

If you're going to ask about a video concerning only the Atari 8 bit lineup, I see the point - But this entire thread is totally futile. I call it as I see it, and all I see is trolling in an attempt to drum up views.

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5 hours ago, JKK said:

Yeah, I know there is some risk asking here. However no risk no fun. And I might ask the same question of Commodore forum and then combine two different point of views. It might make sense...

No, it wouldn't.  You'd end up with much the same in the way of replies, only from the other side.

 

Having watched this thread pretty much from the start, I have to agree that it serves no purpose except to rehash the same tedious arguments that have been beyond old for nearly 40 years at this point.  There's no shortage of Internet chatter on the subject; it can be found in a number of places and really doesn't need to be added to here.  Google is your friend in this regard.

 

Your intentions in starting this thread were clear from the outset just by virtue of the fact that the thread is named, "The real fight Atari versus Commodore."  Had you not been trying to stir up shit, you'd've picked a less-inflammatory name, and your, "no risk no fun" comment reinforces this.

 

Seriously, find something else to do.

Edited by x=usr(1536)
Punctuation is difficult.
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Guys, Can't you see how many interesting discussions this tread contains? How many interesting things did we learn? Even if sometimes it causes too much emotions. For me the intention is to have win-win situation. For sure I promote my video, but at the same time we have very interesting thread and at least me I've learnt some new interesting things thanks to it. And also that despite time passing many people can't look on this from some perspective with some calm...

 

Please also note that my small channel is not at all commercial which means I didn't earn even one cent and noone proposed me even cup of coffee (I noticed that sometimes google displays some small ads but it's not depended on me and I don't earn on that). On the opposite side I spent many evenings preparing this video and also few answering on questions or following Internet discussions.

 

I would say that most of the threads here have some similar win-win situation. If someone ex. discuss new hardware device to Atari, we could also "accuse" him that he might have some benefits from it. However I've never seen any suggestions like this.

 

Concluding, please stay calm. :P I understand that this thread might not be interesting for everyone. However if someone would like to add some comments other than just negative emotions, please be welcome. :) Please also excuse me but I don't want to continue this discussion how much trolling is that. As accusing me for trolling is becoming somehow trolling also... :D 

 

P.S. If you really think that I have so many viewers from this thread, I've just checked in statistics, in the last 28 days I've got... 11 views from atariage.com for all my videos on my channel.

Edited by JKK
  • Haha 1

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4 minutes ago, JKK said:

Guys, Can't you see how many interesting discussions this tread contains? How many interesting things did we learn? Even if sometimes it causes too much emotions. For me the intention is to have win-win situation. For sure I promote my video, but at the same time we have very interesting thread and at least me I've learnt some new interesting things thanks to it. And also that despite time passing many people can't look on this from some perspective with some calm...

 

Please also note that my small channel is not at all commercial which means I didn't earn even one cent and noone proposed me even cup of coffee (I noticed that sometimes google displays some small ads but it's not depended on me and I don't earn on that). On the opposite side I spent many evenings preparing this video and also few answering on questions or following Internet discussions.

 

I would say that most of the threads here have some similar win-win situation. If someone ex. discuss new hardware device to Atari, we could also "accuse" him that he might have some benefits from it. However I've never seen any suggestions like this.

 

Concluding, please stay calm. :P I understand that this thread might not be interesting for everyone. However if someone would like to add some comments other than just negative emotions, please be welcome. :) Please also excuse me but I don't want to continue this discussion how much trolling is that. As accusing me for trolling is becoming somehow trolling also... :D 

It's simple.  It's your channel,  make whatever video you want to make,  people who want to watch that content will watch.   If someone doesn't like it they don't have to watch.

 

Some people on online forums like to gatekeep what should and shouldn't be discussed.  Like If you start a topic on something that was last discussed five years ago, they will complain "why do we need another thread on this?"

 

I don't think concerns about reigniting the old flame wars are realistic.   These platforms are commercially dead for decades..  There's no reason to try to influence people to buy one over the other.   The people who owned these systems are now middle-age and are theoretically more mature and not likely to descend into a "my 1983 system is better than yours" other than in jest.

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@zzip Thank you for this comment. I think almost exactly like you. The word "war" was used not in real meaning but with some irony however as I can see basing on this thread the war still continues for some. Moreover I hid two messages in the video saying sth about my attitude to this subject however instead of following this game and having some fun and small exercise for brain it's better to complain within this thread... :P Once again thank you for supporting me here.

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I think there was some interesting discussion to be had, but none of it was really about the video.

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I promise I'll participate in this enlightening and peaceful exchange, on condition that instead of making yet another video you'll write an in-depth article or post. I like to read stuff, am a bit old school like that. Deal?

 

 

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