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Why was 7800 discontinued

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15 hours ago, Keatah said:

In thinking about the 7800 I got wondering about Missile Command. And I couldn't find it anywhere! Has there been anything in the last two decades of sleuthing history that'd give us a reason why MC hasn't been ported to the 7800?

 

The old lady says it's just a case of port fatigue and wasn't necessary - since the 7800 plays VCS games anyway. How many versions are needed when you have the excellent VCS and 400/800 iterations? I tend to agree because I've not sought out anything beyond those and the actual arcade cab.

 

There's this thread, but it's 20 years out of date and stagnant.

 

My guess is they wouldn't want to do a cartridge requiring a trackball peripheral.

Edited by mr_me

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I think also one needs to remember Missile Command was an '80 Arcade release.  There was even less buzz around that title vs the other ones they dragged out.

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Maybe they didn't do Missile Command because they felt as if the graphics were too simple and by that time, the game was old so not a lot of people would be interested in it? Or maybe you could already play it on the 2600 and 5200, and they wanted to create something different?

 

That's what I think.

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On 4/6/2021 at 12:04 PM, MrTrust said:

*Snip*
This is another piece of received wisdom about gaming of that era that I just don't buy.  The biggest selling games for the NES were far and away Nintendo's own first-party games, and it ain't even close, not even when you account for some of them being sold as pack-in games later.  

You do realize that third party games except Tengen were all packaged in Nintendo cartridges, right?

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3 hours ago, Atariperson23 said:

Maybe they didn't do Missile Command because they felt as if the graphics were too simple and by that time, the game was old so not a lot of people would be interested in it? Or maybe you could already play it on the 2600 and 5200, and they wanted to create something different?

 

That's what I think.

 

Or maybe they felt Missile Command 2600 didn't stink, and it was good enough for the 7800?

 

Yeah I know a lot of you guys love your 2600s, but I have to admit when I first saw Asteroids 2600 I though "what the *** is this crap!?" (actually I had a similar reaction to the Atari 400/800 version too).  Donkey Kong and DKJr were also weak on the 2600, Ms. Pac Man was at least an improvement on Pac-Man, Joust was okay, and Missile Command actually looked quite good (IMHO).  The odd one for me is Defender.   Defender 2600 was another stinker, and could have benefitted greatly from the 7800s better hardware.  Williams signed off on Robotron 2084 for the 7800, so why not a Defender or Stargate release?   

 

Wasn't Bob Decrescenzo working on a port or am I remembering that wrong?

 

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I think an enhanced missile command would be a cool title for the 7800. Kind of like Classic Kong for the SNES. It's the same game, but the sound effects are softer and more modern, and the city in the background looks cool and gives a level of depth and ambiance. I have Classic Kong, and love it. Think if all the old classics got a remake like this they would be great. The XM would have made this possible.

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52 minutes ago, oracle_jedi said:

Or maybe they felt Missile Command 2600 didn't stink, and it was good enough for the 7800?

After thinking about it, this makes good sense. VCS version played well - and even has new life in Stella since you can speed-up or slow-down the game action with the 'turbo' feature. Not only that, there is a trackball/mouse version too. MC on the VCS had the simpler mechanics of one base (and it belonged to me). With three there were too many distractions for my infantile intellect. My focus was removed from the targeting action above.

 

Asteroids wasn't that bad on the VCS. It of course wasn't vector graphic. And there were differences in the rock trajectories. But the coin-op was too hard for me. So VCS it was. The 400/800 version just sucked. The graphics were not smooth. The sound was all scratchy. The ballistics felt different, definitely not an improvement. The whole experience was tacky.

 

And VCS SpaceInvaders was just simply better all around. More appealing colors. Bigger targets. Better sounds. Tons of options. The quintessential killer-app!

 

Overall as a kid bitd I preferred many VCS games over their arcade counterparts. And we thoroughly enjoyed the many game variations. Something no con-op really offered

 

Sure we like our VCS consoles. They were genuinely rewarding and fun to play. Especially on rainy days which made BMX'ing to the arcade unpleasant. The amount of fun-per-dollar we had was a good ratio that got better with time. Despite its simplistic graphics, the gameplay was anything but. And consider the VCS was originally designed as a Pong machine with 2-3 year lifespan - tops.

 

15 minutes ago, Zonie said:

I think an enhanced missile command would be a cool title for the 7800.

It might be. Certainly be fun to see and experience. But I've never taken a long-term liking to many enhanced/remade arcade games. Not a purist or anything. Just that they seem "different" from their progenitors. Especially when the patterns and mechanics are shuffled.

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On 4/7/2021 at 8:28 AM, John Stamos Mullet said:

One of the mods follows my account because he's just itching to ban me.

 

Not me, I pulled the gag-ball out of your mouth. :P

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4 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

 

Or maybe they felt Missile Command 2600 didn't stink, and it was good enough for the 7800?

 

Yeah I know a lot of you guys love your 2600s, but I have to admit when I first saw Asteroids 2600 I though "what the *** is this crap!?" (actually I had a similar reaction to the Atari 400/800 version too).  Donkey Kong and DKJr were also weak on the 2600, Ms. Pac Man was at least an improvement on Pac-Man, Joust was okay, and Missile Command actually looked quite good (IMHO).  The odd one for me is Defender.   Defender 2600 was another stinker, and could have benefitted greatly from the 7800s better hardware.  Williams signed off on Robotron 2084 for the 7800, so why not a Defender or Stargate release?   

 

Wasn't Bob Decrescenzo working on a port or am I remembering that wrong?

 

Bob was working on Defender, but I don't if he went back to it.

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7 hours ago, Zonie said:

You do realize that third party games except Tengen were all packaged in Nintendo cartridges, right?

 

Tengen, and a few others like those companies that made Bible games.  maybe even Galoob?  I know they got into a legal wrangling with them over the Game Genie.  Like I said, I'm not disputing the scumbagginess of their licensing policies at the time, although I think the avarice of this is a little overstated: Atari was having their lunch eaten left and right in the early 80s for not protecting their platform.

 

I'll put it this way.  Golf.  Plain ol' black label, generic Nintendo Golf.  That game sold more copies than any officially licensed third party game for the NES.  That game sold more copies than Atari sold 7800s, and over half as many as Sega sold Master Systems in Europe, the strongest market for it.  And not by a little bit, either.  The only ones that come close are things like Dragon Warrior 3, that had a huge following in Japan, or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles which was the big IP for that generatiom of kids.  Golf still sold more than those, and when you go further down the line, even for big names like Mega Man 2, it ain't even close.  Now, to my knowledge, Golf was never a pack-in game.  Nor was Excitebike, or Dr. Mario., Legend of Zelda, and or others that outsold every officially licensed third party game.  These all would have been exclusive to the NES no matter what, and they sold on their own without being packaged wiyh the hardware.

 

Now, why's that relevant?  Well, if the proffered explanation is correct, that is, Nintendo didn't figure out what consumers wanted and delivered it better, but instead just dishonestly snatched up all the good games from third parties, then you'd expect some of those games to have outsold their own, in-house generic golf game.  Other than Tetris, none of them did.  The vast majoriy of them didn't even sniff at doing it.  And the big names we're talking about all came out years after the launch.  In the very first few years, the third party stuff was not that exciting.  For every one Commando or Ghosts n' Goblins, there were 2-3 Chubby Cherubs or Dragon Powers.

 

Now, look, we had Chubby Cherub in my house in '86, and we all very much liked it.  We had it because, if ya' already got all the black-box games, there wasn't much else to get at the time.  Fine game.  I'm not shitting on Chubby Cherub ot anyone who happens to enjoy that game.  But if you're going to tell me that, in that year, the NES outsold the SMS nearly 10-1, not on the strength of Super Mario Bros. and their very slick marketing, but rather on having the exclusive publishing rights to fucking Chubby Cherub, then yes, I do think you have lost the plot somewhere along the way.

 

Unless the sales numbers for all this stuff are just wildy, crazily inaccurate, for every SMS or 7800 owner, there were 4-10 NES owners.  That alone would be enough to kick the legs out from under Atari and Sega when it came to third-party support even in the absence of Nintendo's shady practices.  And for every for every ill-gotten Castlevania cartridge sold under Nintendo's shady regime, there were 4 copies sold of Golf.  Now, for my money, the best explanation of these facts is that Nintendo made, not just published but made, consistent best-sellers at a time where their competition did not, and even if every single third-party game of that era had appeared on both the 7800 and Master System, those exclusive games would have tipped the balance in favor of the NES such that it still would have been far anf away the best selling console of the time.

 

Now, later on, when Sega came out with the Genesis, things changed.  Why?  Maybe it was the licensing deals, maybe it was the fact that the Genesis had Revenge of Shinobi, Altered Beast, Golden Axe, things like that.  Right off the bat, they big games that could sell consoles instead of Ghost House.

 

Now if I'm wrong about that, then fine, I'm wrong.  But if I am, it will have been wirher because I have the numbers wrong, or I'm missing some big third party license that Nintendo had prior to '88 that made the big difference, or I'm missing some case of history where third parties full-throatedly support platforms that have a comparatively tiny market share.  If any of those things are true, by all means lemme' know.  Otherwise I stand by my position.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

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Is the 7800 necessary and now this?

 

The 7800 scene is kicking so much ass!!

 

Why whine around so much? 😛

 

 

 

 

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Oh, I don't know.  Same reason one digs into any sort of history, I guess.  It's just fun.  None of us can really know the answers to questions like these for the most part.  Many of the people aren't around to ask, and even when they are, they can only give you their perspective.

 

But trying to piece together the answers from what we do know is like a game or a puzzle in itself.  I assume that's why people ask questions like this one in the first place.  I mean, even if it were possible to reach a definitive answer, what practical use could that knowledge have now?

 

Also I think people just like to imagine the alternative possibilities.  What if Atari did this in '84 or that in '87?  Sort of mentally play Kobayashi Maru until they win the day back in the mid-80s.  Which would have been cool, but then I wonder if I would still have the same fondness for things like the 7800.  That is was a failure is part of its charm for me I think.

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The thing that I think many people gloss over on these discussions is that popularity =/= quality. Just because something sells a lot of units doesn't mean it was "the best". It's just a measure of marketing intensity and *in those days* physical availability in-store with shelf space.

 

I mean - Britney Spears sold more records than anyone from 1999 to say 2005. Nobody in their right mind thinks Britney Spears is the greatest singer of her era.

 

Personal experience, the passage of time, and fondness/nostalgia have a way of contorting our memories to believe things as absolute, when in reality they are completely subjective.

 

This is not to say that the NES didn't have quality games with huge replay value. Clearly they did. But man - did they have a ton of shovelware.

 

Personally - having been a teenager during the height of the classic arcade era, the big draw with home consoles after the VCS broke the "novelty" of home versions of arcade games (with notably ugly looking approximations) was always for the next generation to get as close to the quality of Arcade games both graphically and playability-wise as possible. In my personal opinion, having had both a 7800, and a SMS - I always saw the NES as a half step behind graphically. Between the dull/muted color palette, and the constant flicker/characters completely disappearing from the screen - it just felt cheap. It didn't really look or feel much better than the 5200 or Colecovision to me. Slight improvement.

 

But man - did they have marketing muscle. The bandwagon was strong.

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1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

The thing that I think many people gloss over on these discussions is that popularity =/= quality. Just because something sells a lot of units doesn't mean it was "the best". It's just a measure of marketing intensity and *in those days* physical availability in-store with shelf space.

 

Sure.  Wouldn't argue otherwise.  Although, every now and again the masses do end up getting it right, or at least not crazily wrong.  Fortunately, time has been a little kinder to the 7800 and SMS than the total cold shoulder they got back in the day (although the SMS was a little bit of a different story internationally), though they probably made the "right" call at the time.  Those old first-party Nintendo titles/franchises ended up withstanding the test of time better than many of their contemporaries.

 

1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Personally - having been a teenager during the height of the classic arcade era, the big draw with home consoles after the VCS broke the "novelty" of home versions of arcade games (with notably ugly looking approximations) was always for the next generation to get as close to the quality of Arcade games both graphically and playability-wise as possible.


Yep, and that seems to be the calculation Atari, Coleco, and others were making at the time.  In retrospect, it looks like 1) the technology to do that convincingly didn't really appear on the scene until affordable 16-bit machines were on the market, and 2) between '85-'89, the real money in video games was with pre-teens and little kids, or "family" entertainment.  There's a reason so many of the games from that era were based on cartoon and toy licenses and vice versa.  This is a demographic that would not have had as much familiarity with arcade games, and probably less likely to care.  When I was in school, nobody gave a shit about high scores; it was all about whether you could "solve" this or that "Nintendo tape", or else it was all about sports games.  In the 90s, once fighting games became all the rage, that changed, but in the NES era, I'm not even sure any of my friends were even aware Contra was an arcade game.

 

1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

In my personal opinion, having had both a 7800, and a SMS - I always saw the NES as a half step behind graphically. Between the dull/muted color palette, and the constant flicker/characters completely disappearing from the screen - it just felt cheap. It didn't really look or feel much better than the 5200 or Colecovision to me. Slight improvement.

 

Oh, man, it boggled my mind the first time I saw Donkey Kong on that thing.  Everything looked so smooth and colorful, and all those sharp right angles and everything, like an 80s sports car, that thing might as well have been a spaceship.  We got the SMS and 7800 later, so maybe the effect was not as impressive.  Also, I couldn't read yet, so the SMS cartridges were a pain to look through and find the right one.  Early on, I didn't notice much difference, but once that second wave of titles came out it was more apparent that the SMS generally looked better.  Like, I remember being pretty blown away by Lord of the Sword.  Big sprites.  Parallax scrolling and all that.  Then the 3-D glasses were just amazing for the time.  Didn't really see those things on the NES.  Though, I did find the sound a lot more grating, and there was a real generic quality to a lot of the games.  Black Belt, My Hero, Astro Warrior, Quartet, stuff like that.  Not that they were worse than anything else, but SMS just felt like the generic store brand of video games.

 

At the end of the day, I find the 7800 the easiest to go back to of the three.  The graphics are still pretty solid for the most part, and yeah, bunch of tardy ports of old arcade games, but those hold up better now than a lot of the games from the other ones.  Centipede is evergreen; NES I have to be in a specific kind of mood to want to play, and even more so for the SMS.

 

2 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

But man - did they have marketing muscle. The bandwagon was strong.

 

Oh, man, the way they would nuclear blast kids' brains with advertising for these things back in the day was nuts.  Nickelodeon was just becoming a big thing, and you had kids being able to watch kids' TV at any time of day for the first time, and with more and more homes having more than one TV?  Forget about it; it was just a constant sensory bombardment.  Everything had some kid sitting in at a desk with his hat getting blown off his head by the sheer power of all these totally awesome video games, screeching electric guitar, and we would just go crazy over this stuff.  Parents didn't seem to give a shit that it was making us all feral consumer zombies, either.  You couldn't do that with kids prior to the mid 80s.

 

Nowadays, I have to wonder why they even bother.  Does this influence anyone's decision when they're buying a console anymore?  It's like commercials for McDonald's.  Who at this point is not aware of, and has already made their mind up about McDonald's?

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On 4/8/2021 at 1:15 PM, oracle_jedi said:

 

Or maybe they felt Missile Command 2600 didn't stink, and it was good enough for the 7800?

Or that the 400/800/XL version of Missile Command didn't stink, and that was built right into the XEGS? 🤷‍♂️

 

Not that autocannibalistic cross-platform competition ever stopped Atari Corp. before. 😜

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3 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Sure.  Wouldn't argue otherwise.  Although, every now and again the masses do end up getting it right, or at least not crazily wrong.

And even if the masses get it wrong, it always turns out being right. The complainers can be reduced to irrelevancy. The inferior product can undergo evolutionary and migratory changes to make it work as expected. The inferior product can simply be adopted as the norm.

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10 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

 

But man - did they have marketing muscle. The bandwagon was strong.

 

According to Wikipedia (which is never wrong):   The 7800 marketing  "was aided by a marketing campaign with a budget in the "low millions" according to Atari Corporation officials. This was substantially less than the $9 million dollars spent by Sega and the $16 million spent by Nintendo."

 

Yeah imagine if, instead of blowing $40+ million on the Federated Stores debacle, Atari Corp had instead spent the money pushing the 7800, and maybe some new titles.  

 

I've never understood the attraction of SMB.   I've played it a few times.  And I have what I am told is an almost pixel perfect conversion on my C64.   I get that it is an interesting game.  But damn, it is dull compared to Boulderdash, or Dropzone, or Elektraglide, or Star Raiders.   Am I missing something fundamental or is the lure of Mario as much marketing as it is substance?

 

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13 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

Yeah imagine if, instead of blowing $40+ million on the Federated Stores debacle, Atari Corp had instead spent the money pushing the 7800, and maybe some new titles.  

 

Woulda' coulda' shoulda' I guess.  Who could predict how tastes were going to change at the time?  Someone made a good speculation in the "why did the 5200 fail" thread that MTV had a lot to do with the big shakeout in '84.  Sounds plausible to me.  Things were competing for time on the same screen at the time, and that could definitely have been responsible for peeling off a lot of teenagers that would have been more into the arcade style.  Might not have been much Atari could have done to retain that audience.

 

13 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

I've never understood the attraction of SMB.   I've played it a few times.  And I have what I am told is an almost pixel perfect conversion on my C64.   I get that it is an interesting game.  But damn, it is dull compared to Boulderdash, or Dropzone, or Elektraglide, or Star Raiders.   Am I missing something fundamental or is the lure of Mario as much marketing as it is substance?

 

I feel more that way now, but I'm older and don't think about games the same way.  Back then, I definitely preferred SMB and games like that.

 

For kids, it had all the cartoony characters that were not typical for hoke games of the time.  The graphics paled in comparison to, say, Xenophobe or Paperboy in terms of looking like a cartoon, but like I said, if you were a first or second grader in '89, you probably weren't going to arcades that often, much less getting to actually play very much.

 

If you didn't have something like the C64, it felt like a quantum leap.  It had, what, 34 distinct levels?  And not just single screen; you could go back and forth and find hidden passageways and shortcuts, secret free guys, and all kinds of different little tricks/discoveries.  Plus there was an ending, so it kept you wanting to play over and over to try and make it all the way.  Endings were a big deal then.  If you could beat a game, you could lord it over your friends, and it was even better if they described the ending to you, and you went and beat it later and caught them in a lie.  Ultimate flex.  Even on the C64 there wasn't much like that other than Spelunker, which I also loved on the NES.

 

In retrospect, I think something like Bounty Bob Stirkes Back is more enduring in the long run, but the novelty was powerful then.  7800 didn't have anything like that until it was way too late, though Scrapyard Dog ain't too shabby in comparison.

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15 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

Am I missing something fundamental or is the lure of Mario as much marketing as it is substance?

 

There is another possibility: different people have different tastes.

 

The first time I saw SMB I was completely blown away. That was not from marketing. I didn't know anything about it when I saw it at a friend's place. (Thanks, Scott!) A whimsical, brightly colored scrolling platformer with a vast scale for its time and great music (and carefully tuned mechanics, though I didn't recognize that until much later), it looked, sounded, and played like no other game I knew.

 

Nowadays it's a bit dated, especially the one-way scrolling, but so are many other 8-bit games. I still like to play it occasionally.

 

Not everything that's popular is Britney Spears.

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1 hour ago, Pat Brady said:

 

There is another possibility: different people have different tastes.

 

The first time I saw SMB I was completely blown away. That was not from marketing. I didn't know anything about it when I saw it at a friend's place. (Thanks, Scott!) A whimsical, brightly colored scrolling platformer with a vast scale for its time and great music (and carefully tuned mechanics, though I didn't recognize that until much later), it looked, sounded, and played like no other game I knew.

 

Nowadays it's a bit dated, especially the one-way scrolling, but so are many other 8-bit games. I still like to play it occasionally.

 

Not everything that's popular is Britney Spears.

See - I totally understand that. It also depends on where you were in life. Those of us a little older - I saw it as very kidsy, cartoony. Like if was aimed for little kids. At the time, I was already into competitive halfpipe/pool skateboarding, playing guitar in a punk band, and chasing girls. So it was a bit too colorful and young for my taste. 
 

admittedly it is a great game, with tons of replay value. But at the time - I wasn't exactly drawn to it. 

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On 4/8/2021 at 7:00 PM, MrTrust said:

 

Tengen, and a few others like those companies that made Bible games.  maybe even Galoob?  I know they got into a legal wrangling with them over the Game Genie.  Like I said, I'm not disputing the scumbagginess of their licensing policies at the time, although I think the avarice of this is a little overstated: Atari was having their lunch eaten left and right in the early 80s for not protecting their platform.

 

I'll put it this way.  Golf.  Plain ol' black label, generic Nintendo Golf.  That game sold more copies than any officially licensed third party game for the NES.  That game sold more copies than Atari sold 7800s, and over half as many as Sega sold Master Systems in Europe, the strongest market for it.  And not by a little bit, either.  The only ones that come close are things like Dragon Warrior 3, that had a huge following in Japan, or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles which was the big IP for that generatiom of kids.  Golf still sold more than those, and when you go further down the line, even for big names like Mega Man 2, it ain't even close.  Now, to my knowledge, Golf was never a pack-in game.  Nor was Excitebike, or Dr. Mario., Legend of Zelda, and or others that outsold every officially licensed third party game.  These all would have been exclusive to the NES no matter what, and they sold on their own without being packaged wiyh the hardware.

 

Now, why's that relevant?  Well, if the proffered explanation is correct, that is, Nintendo didn't figure out what consumers wanted and delivered it better, but instead just dishonestly snatched up all the good games from third parties, then you'd expect some of those games to have outsold their own, in-house generic golf game.  Other than Tetris, none of them did.  The vast majoriy of them didn't even sniff at doing it.  And the big names we're talking about all came out years after the launch.  In the very first few years, the third party stuff was not that exciting.  For every one Commando or Ghosts n' Goblins, there were 2-3 Chubby Cherubs or Dragon Powers.

 

Now, look, we had Chubby Cherub in my house in '86, and we all very much liked it.  We had it because, if ya' already got all the black-box games, there wasn't much else to get at the time.  Fine game.  I'm not shitting on Chubby Cherub ot anyone who happens to enjoy that game.  But if you're going to tell me that, in that year, the NES outsold the SMS nearly 10-1, not on the strength of Super Mario Bros. and their very slick marketing, but rather on having the exclusive publishing rights to fucking Chubby Cherub, then yes, I do think you have lost the plot somewhere along the way.

 

Unless the sales numbers for all this stuff are just wildy, crazily inaccurate, for every SMS or 7800 owner, there were 4-10 NES owners.  That alone would be enough to kick the legs out from under Atari and Sega when it came to third-party support even in the absence of Nintendo's shady practices.  And for every for every ill-gotten Castlevania cartridge sold under Nintendo's shady regime, there were 4 copies sold of Golf.  Now, for my money, the best explanation of these facts is that Nintendo made, not just published but made, consistent best-sellers at a time where their competition did not, and even if every single third-party game of that era had appeared on both the 7800 and Master System, those exclusive games would have tipped the balance in favor of the NES such that it still would have been far anf away the best selling console of the time.

 

Now, later on, when Sega came out with the Genesis, things changed.  Why?  Maybe it was the licensing deals, maybe it was the fact that the Genesis had Revenge of Shinobi, Altered Beast, Golden Axe, things like that.  Right off the bat, they big games that could sell consoles instead of Ghost House.

 

Now if I'm wrong about that, then fine, I'm wrong.  But if I am, it will have been wirher because I have the numbers wrong, or I'm missing some big third party license that Nintendo had prior to '88 that made the big difference, or I'm missing some case of history where third parties full-throatedly support platforms that have a comparatively tiny market share.  If any of those things are true, by all means lemme' know.  Otherwise I stand by my position.

 

 

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Excellent summary, and, Golf? Whoda thunk it.  Before this last post, I thought a chubby cherub was in my pants. At the end of the day, marketing was the key.   Ya'll think Trane makes the best home HVAC stuff. "Nothing stops a Trane" Bullshit. Trane's are just assembled with the same shit parts all the rest use. Ok it is better than Goodman, but equal in every way to Lennox, Carrier, etc. Marketing. Marketing. Marketing. VHS vs Beta. Yadda yadda yadda. Nintendo did come out with some good games. They all did, but Nintendo made the best marketing... until Sega came out with "SEGA!!!" and "Nintendon't"

 

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1 hour ago, Zonie said:

Excellent summary, and, Golf? Whoda thunk it.  Before this last post, I thought a chubby cherub was in my pants. At the end of the day, marketing was the key.   Ya'll think Trane makes the best home HVAC stuff. "Nothing stops a Trane" Bullshit. Trane's are just assembled with the same shit parts all the rest use. Ok it is better than Goodman, but equal in every way to Lennox, Carrier, etc. Marketing. Marketing. Marketing. VHS vs Beta. Yadda yadda yadda. Nintendo did come out with some good games. They all did, but Nintendo made the best marketing... until Sega came out with "SEGA!!!" and "Nintendon't"

 

Carrier are head and shoulders above Trane. I work in the industry. Trane are highly overrated. Also - their calculation software Trace 700 absolutely sucks, and is so outdated that it's still being built on a Windows NT 4.0 code base. 

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It released too late, the Atari name lost a lot of brand power and most importantly the NES was dominating with quality games thanks to both great 1st and 3rd party offerings. 

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