Much Love for the Jaguar 3D Games

[+cubanismo]

Since I got my GameDrive, I've been trying out more games I hadn't played before, as expected. What I didn't expect was that I'd enjoy so many of the ones that.. don't seem to be many people's favorites around here. As I mentioned before, I do spend more time than one would expect playing Checkered Flag, but I can't actually say it's a good game. For some reason I just enjoy careening around the courses in a car that seems to be attracted to walls by some mysterious magnetic force or something.

 

However, I do really enjoy playing Supercross 3D. Yes, it's running at 2-5 FPS or something, but I somehow have no problem driving around and following the action. It only took me 3 or 4 rounds to pick up the controls before I was often getting first place on several tracks. Today I jumped into SpaceWar 2000. I suppose it's a bit incomplete, but man, it's fun and... bizarre... which makes it more fun. And of course, I mentioned before that I do spend a good amount of time playing WTR on my CD unit, and I'll probably spend even more time in it when I can play it on the GD. Same with Hoverstrike UL.

 

People give the 3D games a hard time, but I don't know that they deserve it. On some the FPS is bad but the fun-factor is high. On some the FPS is decent but the fun factor is low. Some actually run great and play great. And this is all before the 3dfx Voodoo was released, and on a system that came out years before the Playstation or Saturn were released. If I was playing something 3D back then, it was on a PC and sorta-3D like Wolfenstein or Doom at pretty marginal FPS compared to how it runs on the Jag, or Star Fox, which... well, it's a great game, but it kinda chugs too. Many times people here talk about the lack of time the devs had, their inexperience with 3D, or the Jaguar's capabilities to "excuse" flaws in these games. I don't think we need to. A lot of these (not Checkered Flag) are solid games for the most part IMHO.

 

So yes, it's fun to rip on the Jaguar's 3D stuff, because, well by today's standards I guess it's lousy and of course questionable choices were made here and there. Also, yes, I did play Club Drive, and well, it's so bad it's funny. Can't win em' all. But I just wanted to give some love to the 3D engines of the mid 90's running on this crazy HW. I'm still having more fun with them these last few weeks than I've ever had playing Call of Duty whatever it is this year, AKA semi-interactive 3D movie script of war #2345213.

[agradeneu]

If you did not  pay money or full price for it, they could be fun

[LordKraken]

The one I really want to give a try is Battlemorph which, according to the video here and there, seems to be still enjoyable today. And I kind of like this early 3d games with a lot of gouraud shading. On the other I can't PSX visuals and the deformed textures...

[Pete5125]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

If you did not  pay money or full price for it, they could be fun

Yep, free (it's not that bad a game vs.) I cut grass for a month to buy a $60 game and I get a great looking game but the controll is awful, and the game is half finished.

 

If I die because the screen has an invisible barrier it's hard to call it a fun game.

 

A lot of games that were awful in the day get a free pass because of age of system, Double Dragon 5 was hated when new for being a bad sf2 clone, now its considered an ok fighter for jag.

[PeterG]

I agree about a certain charm of those early 3D engines. I checked a Cybermorph ROM the other day and thought how nice some of the goroud shading or what it is look on some landscapes. 

 

And I have yet to find a mech game that I enjoy quite as much as Iron Soldier 1+2, only the standard walking speed is hard for my patience these days.:D

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, PeterG said:

I agree about a certain charm of those early 3D engines. I checked a Cybermorph ROM the other day and thought how nice some of the goroud shading or what it is look on some landscapes. 

 

And I have yet to find a mech game that I enjoy quite as much as Iron Soldier 1+2, only the standard walking speed is hard for my patience these days.:D

Some of the Jag 3D games are really good and still fun to play today, e.g. Iron Soldier and Battlemorph,  but surely not Club Drive or Supercross. These were and still just are very bad games.

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

4 hours ago, LordKraken said:

The one I really want to give a try is Battlemorph which, according to the video here and there, seems to be still enjoyable today. And I kind of like this early 3d games with a lot of gouraud shading. On the other I can't PSX visuals and the deformed textures...

The PSX blew the Jag out of the water.  And it had great racing games and 3D platform games.  

Edited April 6, 2021 by agradeneu

[awbacon]

Iron Soldier was always fun. Seemed so revolutionary back in the day

[+cubanismo]

6 hours ago, agradeneu said:

If you did not  pay money or full price for it, they could be fun

I didn't pay full price back then either. I didn't have a Jaguar in the 90s, but I had other consoles (Saturn, PS1), and I always bought them and the games used. If I didn't like them, I sold them back to the used game stores. Generally I ended up out $20-30 worst case, and often you could do better by working a trade. I also frequently rented a game before buying it.

 

I'm simply judging the games as I did then: by whether or not I enjoy them. If I enjoy them, they're good games in my book.

[swapd0]

One thing that I like in the Jaguar is that the blitter has sub pixel coordinates, if you use it you can do very smooth 3D graphics instead of the shaking 3d models that you see in may PS1 games. Sadly you can't draw many polygons.

[agradeneu]

31 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

I didn't pay full price back then either. I didn't have a Jaguar in the 90s, but I had other consoles (Saturn, PS1), and I always bought them and the games used. If I didn't like them, I sold them back to the used game stores. Generally I ended up out $20-30 worst case, and often you could do better by working a trade. I also frequently rented a game before buying it.

 

I'm simply judging the games as I did then: by whether or not I enjoy them. If I enjoy them, they're good games in my book.

Believe me, paying full price for Club Drive was not funny! After all, fun is very subjective, but I don't think there is an objective quality to your statements regarding the 3D games of the Jaguar.

 

3D engines are just a different tech, but the rules of gamedesign is not much different to 2D games. The issue with the Jaguar 3D games was that the game design often comes across like an afterthought or excuse to sell it in a box for full price. That was pretty obvious to me when playing Club Drive in 1994. Many ex employees of Atari were fully aware about the dysfunctionalities of Atari as a games company:

The issue with many 3D games for the Jaguar were exactly that they were not designed as games being fun for the player, they appeared more like some sort of techy demos.

And that is the big difference to titles like "Starwing" which is designed very well using the limited tech to it's advantage.

 

I also have problems with the generalization of "Jaguar 3D games": the quality of game design varies wildly and someone should judge them as indiviual games regarding their genre and how they compare to their contemporaries in other systems. I would not put Iron Soldier and Doom in the same bag as SuperCross.

 

Last but bot least: I doubt you can single out the Jaguar as "the early 3D machine", that type of flat shaded/gourad shaded polygon graphics were quite common; Atari ST, Amiga, Lynx and PC have all their fair share of 3D "experiments", often more enjoyable as games than what was achieved on the Jaguar, mainly due more thoughtful game design. 

Just look at the 3D games of the Lynx:  Warbirds is a prime example for clever use of technology to realize a true fight sim on an handheld system. And it runs well and it is fun to play. 

These are qualities many Jaguar 3D demos were sorely lacking despite having better hardware technology.  

 

Given it's potential, the outcome of Jaguar games was very disappointing and there is really no point to rosetinte that.

If people think Double Dragon V is not that bad, it is because they are probably enjoying the Jaguar GD first and foremost and the opportunity to play the whole library for free.

 

Also, psychology tells us that people always try to justify their purchases, so there might be a main reason why the Jaguar GD magically improves the fun factor of the library  

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by agradeneu

[+cubanismo]

I didn't say Club Drive was good. I didn't say Checkered Flag was good either, but I enjoy it. The only new games I mentioned above that I hadn't tried before I got the GD were Club Drive, Supercross, and Spacewar. Also, I didn't include Iron Soldier on purpose. I don't like it that much. It's technically impressive, and the premise is kinda cool, but I rarely bother to play beyond the first level. Same goes for AvP for that matter. Very cool engine and story, but I get bored. And yes, I've read many of the dysfunction stories. It's not like they don't get trotted out every other thread or so. Like I said, questionable choices made. I don't really need to justify my GD purchase. I have like 8 skunkboards at this point. I bought it because it's cool tech and a little easier to cycle through games on. It inspired me to play some games I hadn't bothered wasting ~2 minutes to flash to the skunks, but I still would have been happy with it if all those had sucked too.

 

I think you're trying awfully hard to make my opinion fit some mold so you can write it off. No need for that. We just have different opinions. I enjoy many, but not all, of the 3D games on the Jag. For whatever reason, I tend to like quite a few others don't care for that much. I just thought I'd share that opinion in hopes it inspires others to give them a try if they haven't, given many are used as running jokes on here, which certainly dissuaded me from trying them sooner. I don't mind the jokes at all, just wanted to write down an alternative view.

[tbs123456]

I loved club drive two player playing tag. Would have been a lot more fun 4 player. While not an awesome looking game, I think a lot of the problems with games in general from that era is home 3d games were so new that no one really knew what to do. Granted club drive should have been a little more polished visually, it had potential to be really good. Also, the tramiels just weren't game people which didn't help.

[+cubanismo]

6 hours ago, LordKraken said:

The one I really want to give a try is Battlemorph

Yeah, Battlemorph is good. I've been playing my CD-r copy while I wait for that @Songbird
release ?

[agradeneu]

13 minutes ago, tbs123456 said:

I loved club drive two player playing tag. Would have been a lot more fun 4 player. While not an awesome looking game, I think a lot of the problems with games in general from that era is home 3d games were so new that no one really knew what to do. Granted club drive should have been a little more polished visually, it had potential to be really good. Also, the tramiels just weren't game people which didn't help.

3D games really weren't that new, Atari ST, PC and Arcade had plenty of them. The promise of the Jaguar was to improve detail and speed of 3D animation and create detailed immersive 3D worlds.

I think we bought a Jaguar in 1994 because we were interested in 3D games like Starfox, Doom or Grand Prix. Unfortunality Atari did not deliver on their promises.  

[tbs123456]

35 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

3D games really weren't that new, Atari ST, PC and Arcade had plenty of them. The promise of the Jaguar was to improve detail and speed of 3D animation and create detailed immersive 3D worlds.

I think we bought a Jaguar in 1994 because we were interested in 3D games like Starfox, Doom or Grand Prix. Unfortunality Atari did not deliver on their promises.  

I meant as in home consoles. Not everyone had a computer capable of playing open world 3d games. Starfox was more on rails shooter than like cybermorphs open world. Atari just didn't invest in making high quality games. They just thought others would do it instead of them having to prove that it was a viable platform. Which is why I said the tramiels didn't understand games.

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, cubanismo said:

I didn't say Club Drive was good. I didn't say Checkered Flag was good either, but I enjoy it. The only new games I mentioned above that I hadn't tried before I got the GD were Club Drive, Supercross, and Spacewar. Also, I didn't include Iron Soldier on purpose. I don't like it that much. It's technically impressive, and the premise is kinda cool, but I rarely bother to play beyond the first level. Same goes for AvP for that matter. Very cool engine and story, but I get bored. And yes, I've read many of the dysfunction stories. It's not like they don't get trotted out every other thread or so. Like I said, questionable choices made. I don't really need to justify my GD purchase. I have like 8 skunkboards at this point. I bought it because it's cool tech and a little easier to cycle through games on. It inspired me to play some games I hadn't bothered wasting ~2 minutes to flash to the skunks, but I still would have been happy with it if all those had sucked too.

 

I think you're trying awfully hard to make my opinion fit some mold so you can write it off. No need for that. We just have different opinions. I enjoy many, but not all, of the 3D games on the Jag. For whatever reason, I tend to like quite a few others don't care for that much. I just thought I'd share that opinion in hopes it inspires others to give them a try if they haven't, given many are used as running jokes on here, which certainly dissuaded me from trying them sooner. I don't mind the jokes at all, just wanted to write down an alternative view.

I think there is a misunderstanding.

Opinions are subjective, I did not deny that.  But there is also history and the experience of many Atari fans who had high hopes for Atari and the Jaguar and were disappointed the hard way. 

There were many illusions about the Jaguar. Now with these high hopes, 

Club Drive felt like Atari showing their fans the middlefinger, no respect for the player.  To make mattes worse, the game was delayed several times. 

 

 Today you can have fun  with these bad games, because there are no or very very low expectations. And some people think it's unique and cool to like things that are not mainstream. Especially with youtubers and collectors, they are always looking for a new toy.

But really, as a gamer and hobby developer  I can't and would not recommend anyone to play or waste their time with bad games. That would be the wrong mindset. I value quality of games very high and there is some objective quality to it, it make no sense to me to cultivate a spleen to find fun in bad games or to cultivate a trash image of the Atari Jaguar. 

 

All  can say is, stear clear of the bad games!

 

Just think of the perspective of a developer or playtester:

If Atari enthusiast/Jaguar users were playtesters of Club Drive ca. 1994 they would have kicked Ataris ass, seriously! And that for the better!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

If you can play a fast 3D game/motorcycle sim (with a functionable AI btw) like this on an 8MHZ Atari ST in 1993, that puts some serious perspective on Jaguar offerings like CD or CF: 

 

 

 

But it's the same with Crescent Galaxy: If that one was the first ever attempt for a sidescrolling shmup in 1983, it would have been somewhat sensational. 

 

[JagChris]

That looks like it was full screen

[JagChris]

That would have been fun on the Jag with link up or split screen.

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

If you can play a fast 3D game/motorcycle sim (with a functionable AI btw) like this on an 8MHZ Atari ST in 1993, that puts some serious perspective on Jaguar offerings like CD or CF: 

 

 

 

But it's the same with Crescent Galaxy: If that one was the first ever attempt for a sidescrolling shmup in 1983, it would have been somewhat sensational. 

 

Impressive - silky smooth framerate and looks like it's easy to control.  That would have never passed testing for a Jag release.

[JagChris]

Some of these games may be fun in their own right but I wouldn't call any of them exciting. Back in the day we'd be playing battlemorph then jump over to the psx with exciting games like Warhawk etc. 

I think the judgement on Jag games are relative to that but I understand where cubanismo is coming from. 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Dang, never heard of No Second Prize before, but that should've been a launch title.

 

I agree that Jag 3D has some odd charm to it, it just sucks when you have to imagine how much better the games would've been if they all could have run at a consistent and smooth frame rate (60 best of course, but 30 would've been acceptable). Or if you hopped over to the PSX or Saturn and found much better efforts.

 

In my opinion, I rate the 3D games as such, just from an overall perspective. I'm sure opinions here will vary a bit:

 

Club Drive: Terrible (except Tag mode)

Checkered Flag: Terrible

SuperCross 3D: Terrible (I likewise remember becoming decent at it after some practice, but it wasn't fun to come back to)

Air Cars: Terrible

Highlander: Terrible/Okay (mainly due to the last sequence of running down a long corridor with snipers that you can't do anything about other than cheat)

Fight For Life: Okayish (the beta was a solid okay, but this was no Virtua Fighter or Tekken either way)

Hover Strike CD: Okay (mainly just for the lighting effects and great texture work  )

CyberMorph: Okay

I-War: Okay (Could've used some linked VS. play, great music though)

Skyhammer: Okay

Robinson's Requiem: I only got to play this a little before my CD drive stopped working, so in-between Okay & good, from what I tried

Zero 5: Good (But that difficulty and button mashing made me break the fire button on a Pro Controller)

Gorf 2000: Good

World Tour Racing: Good

Missile Command 3D: Good

Iron Soldier: Really good/great

BattleSphere: Great

Iron Soldier 2: Great

Tempest 2000 (I think this counts, all characters are 3D polys): To quote the game itself: Excellent!

BattleMorph: Excellent!

 

I dunno about the likes of Space War 2k, BI/WN and Phaze Zero, just because they weren't finished. 

[youxia]

Is AvP not a 3D game? Tbh I was totally a Amiga/PC guy back then (and a 3D fanatic), did not care much for consoles, especially Jag, but this was one title which made us all pay attention.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

5 minutes ago, youxia said:

Is AvP not a 3D game? Tbh I was totally a Amiga/PC guy back then (and a 3D fanatic), did not care much for consoles, especially Jag, but this was one title which made us all pay attention.

Not technically - I figured we were talking 3D polygons (shaded or textured), while stuff like Avp, Wolf3D, Doom, Towers II is raycasting. I do enjoy the raycasted games and would put them all into the 'great' category though. IMHO, the Jag version of Wolf3D is the best rendition of the game from that era, I liked it more than the PC version.