leech Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 So a while back I had bought an Ultimate64. Someone at work donated some parts to me, a new C64C style case (in red, so I have a Red Commie), an extra keyboard, a breadbin case with motherboard (missing VIC and SID chip) and a couple of 6581 SIDs, which I had installed into the Ultimate64 board. Well, I also recently bought a C128, but as I only have the SD2IEC with it, the thing loads so very slow... so while I was waiting for JiffyDOS / Fast Load cart that I ordered, I upgraded the firmware on the Ultimate64, and was playing around with the settings, and noticed that it wasn't detecting the SID chips. So I went through the fun task of taking apart the C128 to test the 6581 in there, fortunately that is what was in there already. Well one of them prevented the machine from booting. You could tell it initialized the screen, but then nothing happened after that. The second one booted up fine, but then there was no sound... So then I got to thinking... I'm a Debian user, for many years. Their permanent name for the 'Unstable' branch is Sid. This, like all of their code names, is based on Toy Story. The kid Sid is crazy and likes to break his toys. Hence why they chose his name for the unstable branch. Now I'm starting to wonder if the writers of Toy Story had some problematic C64/C128s in their life and named the crazy kid after the SID chips! Anyhow, 230 bucks later... ordered 3 6581s (2x for the U64 and 1 for the old C64), and a 6567r8 VIC-II for the old c64. Wish me luck that they all work right. What is the recommended diagnostic cart that I should be able to use on the three systems (I'm sure there is something more that is wrong with the other C64 than just missing video / sound chips)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, leech said: So a while back I had bought an Ultimate64. Someone at work donated some parts to me, a new C64C style case (in red, so I have a Red Commie), an extra keyboard, a breadbin case with motherboard (missing VIC and SID chip) and a couple of 6581 SIDs, which I had installed into the Ultimate64 board. Well, I also recently bought a C128, but as I only have the SD2IEC with it, the thing loads so very slow... so while I was waiting for JiffyDOS / Fast Load cart that I ordered, I upgraded the firmware on the Ultimate64, and was playing around with the settings, and noticed that it wasn't detecting the SID chips. So I went through the fun task of taking apart the C128 to test the 6581 in there, fortunately that is what was in there already. Well one of them prevented the machine from booting. You could tell it initialized the screen, but then nothing happened after that. The second one booted up fine, but then there was no sound... So then I got to thinking... I'm a Debian user, for many years. Their permanent name for the 'Unstable' branch is Sid. This, like all of their code names, is based on Toy Story. The kid Sid is crazy and likes to break his toys. Hence why they chose his name for the unstable branch. Now I'm starting to wonder if the writers of Toy Story had some problematic C64/C128s in their life and named the crazy kid after the SID chips! Anyhow, 230 bucks later... ordered 3 6581s (2x for the U64 and 1 for the old C64), and a 6567r8 VIC-II for the old c64. Wish me luck that they all work right. What is the recommended diagnostic cart that I should be able to use on the three systems (I'm sure there is something more that is wrong with the other C64 than just missing video / sound chips)? You could always go with a modern solution like the ArmSid. Way less costly and will last longer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: You could always go with a modern solution like the ArmSid. Way less costly and will last longer... Yeah, though how different is that than just using the UltiSID in the Ultimate64? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, leech said: Yeah, though how different is that than just using the UltiSID in the Ultimate64? It's, supposedly, a better emulation of the sid from what I read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 36 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: It's, supposedly, a better emulation of the sid from what I read. Huh, checked the site, and it seems they're out of stock. Bummer. I do have an UltimateII+ on order from Gideon, though not sure how long that usually takes for him to get them from back order. That's for the C128 to make it even more useful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 1 minute ago, leech said: Huh, checked the site, and it seems they're out of stock. Bummer. I do have an UltimateII+ on order from Gideon, though not sure how long that usually takes for him to get them from back order. That's for the C128 to make it even more useful I also have an U2+, but I retired my C128 due to it having a less pleasing video output than my C64 breadbin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: I also have an U2+, but I retired my C128 due to it having a less pleasing video output than my C64 breadbin. Yeah, I was looking for a RGBI cable, and see if there was some mods for fixing the normal video output. Something like the UAV for the Atari's would be nice. Edit: Derp, of course there is, it's the LumaFix128, though someone I know installed one and said it hadn't helped much. Meant to order one of those too, if I can figure out a good place to order it from. Edited April 8, 2021 by leech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 19 minutes ago, leech said: Yeah, I was looking for a RGBI cable, and see if there was some mods for fixing the normal video output. Something like the UAV for the Atari's would be nice. Edit: Derp, of course there is, it's the LumaFix128, though someone I know installed one and said it hadn't helped much. Meant to order one of those too, if I can figure out a good place to order it from. It doesn't really help, at least it doesn't give me as good a display that my breadbin gives me. Beside, there's almost nothing that is exclusive to the C128 that I can't live without. I've relegated my last 1571, that I used to have connected to my C128, to ZoomFloppy duty for when I get some stuff on floppies to archive. But the C64 breadbin has replaced the C128 for good in my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: It doesn't really help, at least it doesn't give me as good a display that my breadbin gives me. Beside, there's almost nothing that is exclusive to the C128 that I can't live without. I've relegated my last 1571, that I used to have connected to my C128, to ZoomFloppy duty for when I get some stuff on floppies to archive. But the C64 breadbin has replaced the C128 for good in my setup. Yeah, I wanted it just to have it, ha! previous to that the only commodores I owned were my Amigas (of which I own two 4000s, an A500 (with V2) and a V4SA, of which still sort of feels like an Amiga as I have an adapter for the A4k keyboards.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, leech said: Yeah, I wanted it just to have it, ha! previous to that the only commodores I owned were my Amigas (of which I own two 4000s, an A500 (with V2) and a V4SA, of which still sort of feels like an Amiga as I have an adapter for the A4k keyboards.. The A4000... That's some bucket list unicorn dream of mine ? They're extremely rare in my Province, if not the whole of Canada. The only one I know of locally was at Radio-Canada in Montreal that one of my friend used for some titling on videos. Never even touch one myself... boohoo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: The A4000... That's some bucket list unicorn dream of mine ? They're extremely rare in my Province, if not the whole of Canada. The only one I know of locally was at Radio-Canada in Montreal that one of my friend used for some titling on videos. Never even touch one myself... boohoo... Took years for me to build mine up. The second one I bought had major damage on the board from a battery leak, so I sent that back. Then years later got an actual second one that is in a tower (not an A4000T mind you, but what was created as the 'Toaster Oven', so a full height tower that has a Video Toaster and Video Flyer in it... Need to re-set it up and finally put the case on it. The other one is in the desktop and has the full mediator / voodoo / network / PPC card in it... yeah that cost a pretty penny... I should spend more time with them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Whether the three chips you ordered will work depends a lot from where you bought them. I suppose at a price somewhere around $60 per chip, those should be legit and tested working but you never know. Some take chances ordering cheaper chips from various Chinese resellers and it is truly a hit or miss. While it seems the majority of SID chips really are SID chips, many are repainted with a different revision number and date code to fake their origin. Those may have broken filters or other issues. Sometimes it can be just about any type of chip disguised as a SID, so it wouldn't operate at all. Or of course duds, like the ones you already had. I've even seen narrow 14-pin chips repainted as if those were 6581 chips, by resellers who don't even know what they are doing but want to cash in on the demand. So yes, good luck on that. I agree that an ARMSID might be nearly as good. The cheaper SID replacements are more for easy listening though, and some may lack functions like handling mouse input, the random number generation from noise on the third voice and other features that some software might utilize while not being strictly sound related. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 9, 2021 Author Share Posted April 9, 2021 4 hours ago, carlsson said: Whether the three chips you ordered will work depends a lot from where you bought them. I suppose at a price somewhere around $60 per chip, those should be legit and tested working but you never know. Some take chances ordering cheaper chips from various Chinese resellers and it is truly a hit or miss. While it seems the majority of SID chips really are SID chips, many are repainted with a different revision number and date code to fake their origin. Those may have broken filters or other issues. Sometimes it can be just about any type of chip disguised as a SID, so it wouldn't operate at all. Or of course duds, like the ones you already had. I've even seen narrow 14-pin chips repainted as if those were 6581 chips, by resellers who don't even know what they are doing but want to cash in on the demand. So yes, good luck on that. I agree that an ARMSID might be nearly as good. The cheaper SID replacements are more for easy listening though, and some may lack functions like handling mouse input, the random number generation from noise on the third voice and other features that some software might utilize while not being strictly sound related. Yeah, I made sure the ones that I ordered were actually being shipped from the US, not China. The VIC-II claimed to be pulled from a working machine, The SIDs were New Old Stock from Sykesville, MD. Ha, that's an awesome town name. So in theory, they should be legit ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariman Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 On 4/8/2021 at 1:12 PM, Tuxon86 said: It doesn't really help, at least it doesn't give me as good a display that my breadbin gives me. Beside, there's almost nothing that is exclusive to the C128 that I can't live without. I've relegated my last 1571, that I used to have connected to my C128, to ZoomFloppy duty for when I get some stuff on floppies to archive. But the C64 breadbin has replaced the C128 for good in my setup. I recently installed the C128 LumaFix and had substantial improvement, but I must confess that I only just found my C64 after years of it being buried in storage and therefore haven't had a chance to do a full comparison. Figured I would at least share my success! That being said... I was worried about the lack of heat sinking I was winding up with after that upgrade and others and it was a pain to cobble together a reasonable scheme of heat sinks and appropriate thermally conductive material. (but the bonus is that now I have a really good non-permanent thermally conductive tape to use on other stuff in the future) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 16, 2021 Author Share Posted April 16, 2021 On 4/9/2021 at 11:41 PM, Atariman said: I recently installed the C128 LumaFix and had substantial improvement, but I must confess that I only just found my C64 after years of it being buried in storage and therefore haven't had a chance to do a full comparison. Figured I would at least share my success! That being said... I was worried about the lack of heat sinking I was winding up with after that upgrade and others and it was a pain to cobble together a reasonable scheme of heat sinks and appropriate thermally conductive material. (but the bonus is that now I have a really good non-permanent thermally conductive tape to use on other stuff in the future) For my 130XE and the Rapidus, I slapped some of these on the 6502, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MAUE9DR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Reporting back, I can say that at least two of the SID chips I ordered are working beautifully in the Ultimate64! The third one and the VIC-II I haven't tested yet, as apparently I don't have a c64 power supply... yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortis Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Armsid is what I'm kicking, along with a GALPLA. I do have an odd symptom using Adrian's tools with the TV pattern (# 28) test. I'm not sure if that has anything to do at all with those two replacements or not, but I can say everything else appears to work - even the paddles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted April 20, 2021 Author Share Posted April 20, 2021 I got the PSU for the C64 today and indeed it boots up just fine with the new VIC-II and SID (6851) replacements! Niw to set aside some time to test it with the SD2IEC and some other software. I should be getting a Ultimate 1541 II+ soonish as well! So that leaves me with a U64, C64 and C128! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortis Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Very very cool leech! I have a Rev A. board coming in and it looks like the SID and PLA are in sockets. If they are, I'll try that #28 test with those chips in and see if there are any differences. Just to be thorough and because one day, SIDs and PLAs will dry up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortis Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 ...and just to close the loop. The N82S and 6581 made no difference. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertB Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 On 4/9/2021 at 6:31 AM, carlsson said: ...an ARMSID might be nearly as good. The cheaper SID replacements are more for easy listening though, and some may lack functions like handling mouse input, the random number generation from noise on the third voice and other features that some software might utilize while not being strictly sound related. Unlike a real SID, the ARMSID does not accept mouse/Koalapad/etc. input. The expensive fpgaSID and the discontinued SwinSID Ultimate do work with mouse/Koalapad/etc. input. Truly, Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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