Jaguar on the Fritz

[tripled79]

Has anyone had this happen to them?

I was trying to play Wolfenstein 3D when I noticed problems with the controls. Blatzkowitz would keep walking forward. I tried rebooting, but the same thing would happen where the "up" button on the d-pad was getting pressed on it's own. I tried swapping controllers, and that didn't fix it.

Hmm. Tempest 2000 with a rotary. At first the menus seemed fine, but then I remembered that I would need a controller for the bonus levels, so I plugged a controller into port 2. A sound effect went off and then the screen went black. Hmm..

Cybermorph. I went back to the ProController. Now the title music would play, but the title screen animation would reset before it would even finish. It seems like a button is repeatedly being pressed. When I unplug and plug into port 2, no problems.

I'm wondering if there is something going on inside the Jaguar itself.

Would re-capping the board fix this?

 

 

[+Stephen Moss]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:53 PM, tripled79 said:

Would re-capping the board fix this?

With nothing to directly implicate a capacitor as being the problem you might get lucky but I would not count on it.

You made reference to the "up" direction but are you seeing any other odd button behaviour?

 

Each input line has a decoupling cap on it, after that there are not really any caps involved as it is digital all the way in regard to the input circuitry. Therefore if there was a problem with the J8 input line on the Jaguar (such as the cap shorted) rather than a controller problem then not only would "Up" be affected but also 0 (usually sound on and off) and more importantly * and # which would be seen as being pressed together normally resulting in a game reset.

If the sound is not toggling and the game not constantly resetting then the decoupling cap is probably not shorted, it may be a bad connection with the pull-up resistor, one way to check is to measure the resistance (power off) between pin 14 of the controller port both pin 9 (Ground) and 7 (5V), anything other then a constant 0 is good for the former and around 4.7K is good for the latter.

Another is to start the game, if Blatzkowitz starts walking forward when "up" in not pressed, unplug the controller (generally I would advise against plugin/unplugging controllers while powered). If he keeps walking the problem is likely to be with the Jag, if he stops then the problem is likely to be with the controller.     

 

As for the issue when plugging in the 2nd controller for Tempest, if sounds like that was performed in while the game was running as opposed to switching off, therefore it is possible that caused some sort of glitch or power spike that could have upset the Jag, i.e. messed up the program count that could result in the effects you noticed.  

 

Plugin into port 2 may not causes a problem because most Jaguar games are single player and therefore the software may not be reading the second port and for games that have 2 player modes, that mode may have to be selected for the software to read the second port therefore the fact you are not seeing problems with port 2 does not necessarily mean all is as it should be, just that the problem is not presenting itself as the port is not being read.  

[tripled79]

Well that was a mouthful...

Ha! But seriously, thanks. I'll have to take a look. I've got my Genesis taken apart right now and need to re-assemble it before I take on the Jaguar...

[doctorclu]

Every time I read this I keep expecting a Fritz the Cat game for the Jaguar. 

[tripled79]

8 hours ago, doctorclu said:

Every time I read this I keep expecting a Fritz the Cat game for the Jaguar. 

But we already have Bubsy...

[doctorclu]

2 hours ago, tripled79 said:

But we already have Bubsy...

Hmmm... Bubsy meets American Hero.  Fascinating.

[+jgkspsx]

20 hours ago, doctorclu said:

Every time I read this I keep expecting a Fritz the Cat game for the Jaguar. 

Every time I read this I hear it to the tune of “Puttin’ on the Ritz”.

[tripled79]

On 4/19/2021 at 3:44 AM, Stephen Moss said:

With nothing to directly implicate a capacitor as being the problem you might get lucky but I would not count on it.

You made reference to the "up" direction but are you seeing any other odd button behaviour?

 

Each input line has a decoupling cap on it, after that there are not really any caps involved as it is digital all the way in regard to the input circuitry. Therefore if there was a problem with the J8 input line on the Jaguar (such as the cap shorted) rather than a controller problem then not only would "Up" be affected but also 0 (usually sound on and off) and more importantly * and # which would be seen as being pressed together normally resulting in a game reset.

If the sound is not toggling and the game not constantly resetting then the decoupling cap is probably not shorted, it may be a bad connection with the pull-up resistor, one way to check is to measure the resistance (power off) between pin 14 of the controller port both pin 9 (Ground) and 7 (5V), anything other then a constant 0 is good for the former and around 4.7K is good for the latter.

Another is to start the game, if Blatzkowitz starts walking forward when "up" in not pressed, unplug the controller (generally I would advise against plugin/unplugging controllers while powered). If he keeps walking the problem is likely to be with the Jag, if he stops then the problem is likely to be with the controller.     

 

As for the issue when plugging in the 2nd controller for Tempest, if sounds like that was performed in while the game was running as opposed to switching off, therefore it is possible that caused some sort of glitch or power spike that could have upset the Jag, i.e. messed up the program count that could result in the effects you noticed.  

 

Plugin into port 2 may not causes a problem because most Jaguar games are single player and therefore the software may not be reading the second port and for games that have 2 player modes, that mode may have to be selected for the software to read the second port therefore the fact you are not seeing problems with port 2 does not necessarily mean all is as it should be, just that the problem is not presenting itself as the port is not being read.  

Okay, this was some time ago, but I recapped the Jag and sure enough it doesn't fix the problem.

You mentioned * and # being pressed together and that is what I suspect is happening now. I tested the system with Power Drive Rally and the video and audio would cut in and out. More importantly, I couldn't start a game or load a game. I pressed Option in the menu screen and I got a "memory cleared" text on screen which would suggest * and # are constantly being pressed. I will try with different controllers but I suspect it will be futile.

Anyway, is there any way to clear these buttons from being pressed from within the Jag?

[+Stephen Moss]

16 hours ago, tripled79 said:

Anyway, is there any way to clear these buttons from being pressed from within the Jag?

If the Jag is detecting a * and # press there is no software method of clearing that. The game software will only be coded to read the port, I doubt it have been written to include possible error correction as it would be difficult to identify a hardware error from a user input error. If you have a SkunkBoard or GameDrive you could try running the controller test program by Matthias Domin which you can download from here (scroll 3/4 of the way down) to see what controller buttons that reports as being pressed to help confirm or dismiss these suspicions as the source of the problem.

 

In regards to it being Jaguar hardware problem is most likely to be the result of a short or open circuit somewhere, you have to first perform the resistance test I mentioned previously tests, start at the beginning of the signal chain and then work along.

Alternatively, if you do not have access to any test equipment (i.e. multi-meter, logic probe (easy to build) or Oscilloscope) you must have access to a soldering iron to have re-capped it, in which case you could initially try reflowing and adding a little solder to all the controller socket solder joints as it may simply be a case of having a bad solder joint or two there. 

[tripled79]

8 hours ago, Stephen Moss said:

If the Jag is detecting a * and # press there is no software method of clearing that. The game software will only be coded to read the port, I doubt it have been written to include possible error correction as it would be difficult to identify a hardware error from a user input error. If you have a SkunkBoard or GameDrive you could try running the controller test program by Matthias Domin which you can download from here (scroll 3/4 of the way down) to see what controller buttons that reports as being pressed to help confirm or dismiss these suspicions as the source of the problem.

 

In regards to it being Jaguar hardware problem is most likely to be the result of a short or open circuit somewhere, you have to first perform the resistance test I mentioned previously tests, start at the beginning of the signal chain and then work along.

Alternatively, if you do not have access to any test equipment (i.e. multi-meter, logic probe (easy to build) or Oscilloscope) you must have access to a soldering iron to have re-capped it, in which case you could initially try reflowing and adding a little solder to all the controller socket solder joints as it may simply be a case of having a bad solder joint or two there. 

I'm on the wish list for a Gamedrive so I'll have to wait on that I guess.

I suppose I'll check the controller socket area with my multi-meter.

Thanks.

[tripled79]

On 4/19/2021 at 3:44 AM, Stephen Moss said:

With nothing to directly implicate a capacitor as being the problem you might get lucky but I would not count on it.

You made reference to the "up" direction but are you seeing any other odd button behaviour?

 

Each input line has a decoupling cap on it, after that there are not really any caps involved as it is digital all the way in regard to the input circuitry. Therefore if there was a problem with the J8 input line on the Jaguar (such as the cap shorted) rather than a controller problem then not only would "Up" be affected but also 0 (usually sound on and off) and more importantly * and # which would be seen as being pressed together normally resulting in a game reset.

If the sound is not toggling and the game not constantly resetting then the decoupling cap is probably not shorted, it may be a bad connection with the pull-up resistor, one way to check is to measure the resistance (power off) between pin 14 of the controller port both pin 9 (Ground) and 7 (5V), anything other then a constant 0 is good for the former and around 4.7K is good for the latter.

Another is to start the game, if Blatzkowitz starts walking forward when "up" in not pressed, unplug the controller (generally I would advise against plugin/unplugging controllers while powered). If he keeps walking the problem is likely to be with the Jag, if he stops then the problem is likely to be with the controller.     

 

As for the issue when plugging in the 2nd controller for Tempest, if sounds like that was performed in while the game was running as opposed to switching off, therefore it is possible that caused some sort of glitch or power spike that could have upset the Jag, i.e. messed up the program count that could result in the effects you noticed.  

 

Plugin into port 2 may not causes a problem because most Jaguar games are single player and therefore the software may not be reading the second port and for games that have 2 player modes, that mode may have to be selected for the software to read the second port therefore the fact you are not seeing problems with port 2 does not necessarily mean all is as it should be, just that the problem is not presenting itself as the port is not being read.  

Okay so I am not getting 0 between pin 14 and 9 I'm getting an open, but I am getting 4.7 kohms between pin 14 and 7...

[tripled79]

Hmm... odd. I'm checking resistance with the controller points on the bottom of the board and I get 5.25kohms at pin 14 and 9 but not when I check the ports on the front...

 

cancel that. Loose connection with the paper clips I'm using to probe the ports as my probes are too big for the controller ports. 

 

But yeah, I'm getting 5.25kohms at pin 14 and 9...

Edited May 26, 2021 by tripled79
wrong info

[+Stephen Moss]

Those measurement suggest that neither the cap is shorted or the pull up resistor is open circuit.

Next I would measure the pin 14 voltage both with and without a controller connected...

a) A reading of approximately 5V in both cases confirms all is well with the primary input stage.

b) A reading of either 0V or something much lower than 5V in both cases could suggest a problem with U20 (or possibly C81 that only appears when power is connected despite the result of the resistance test)

c) A reading of approximately 5V without a controller connected and either 0V or something much lower with it connected would be suggestive of a potential controller issue. 

 

If, having measured that voltage you determine the outcome as being either a or b above then I would check the following...

With the power on I would expect you should read approximately 5V at pin 2 (input) of U20 (pin 10 is GND), as the output at pin 18 is being switched for the controller reads I cannot be certain of what measurement you would get. But I would not expect either 5V or 0V. The readings should be approximately the same both with and without a controller connected.

With the power off you should read approximate 10Kohms between pin 18 of U20 and Pin 16 of RP7. 

[+jgkspsx]

If you're blue, cause 

“where did you learn to fly”
no longer plays but only quits
Jaguar on the fritz.

Checkered Flag might be such

a checkered steering struggle drag
How would you know it?

Jaguar on the fritz.

Power Drive can’t seem to have a rally

Bubsy B ain’t here (but can you smell he?)

On your Atari

Come with me and we shall repair your Tragedy of caps

Leaking all their sh**s
Jaguar on the fritz

Oh, your Jag is on the fritz.

Yes your Jag is on the fritz.

New one? More than just two bits.

Oh, your Jag is on the fritz.

 

 

(I’m so sorry.)

[+cubanismo]

Slow day at work? ?

[tripled79]

On 5/27/2021 at 4:36 AM, Stephen Moss said:

Those measurement suggest that neither the cap is shorted or the pull up resistor is open circuit.

Next I would measure the pin 14 voltage both with and without a controller connected...

a) A reading of approximately 5V in both cases confirms all is well with the primary input stage.

b) A reading of either 0V or something much lower than 5V in both cases could suggest a problem with U20 (or possibly C81 that only appears when power is connected despite the result of the resistance test)

c) A reading of approximately 5V without a controller connected and either 0V or something much lower with it connected would be suggestive of a potential controller issue. 

 

If, having measured that voltage you determine the outcome as being either a or b above then I would check the following...

With the power on I would expect you should read approximately 5V at pin 2 (input) of U20 (pin 10 is GND), as the output at pin 18 is being switched for the controller reads I cannot be certain of what measurement you would get. But I would not expect either 5V or 0V. The readings should be approximately the same both with and without a controller connected.

With the power off you should read approximate 10Kohms between pin 18 of U20 and Pin 16 of RP7. 

Looks like option c) a controller. I tried with my other controllers and I'm getting 5V with or without controller plugged in. This is one of my fairly new, aftermarket ProControllers...

I'll have to take this thing apart...

 

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated!

 

 

[+Stephen Moss]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:24 AM, tripled79 said:

Looks like option c) a controller. I tried with my other controllers and I'm getting 5V with or without controller plugged in. This is one of my fairly new, aftermarket ProControllers...

I'll have to take this thing apart...

If the component references match those of a standard controller then with the keypad rubber membrane removed if the problem no longer exists it may have been a stuck button due to membrane misalignment during assembly.

 

However, if the issue still remain I suggest measuring the voltage between pin 10 (GND) and pins 13 (Input) and 7 (Output) of the 74HC244. With no controller buttons pressed...

1) Both the 74HC244 input and output pins are at 5V = pullup resistor & 74HC244 operating correctly, problem may be open circuit between pin 13 of the 74HC244 and pin 14 of the controller plug

2) Pin 13 at 5V but pin 7 at a lower voltage = possible failure of 74HC244 or external short of pin 7 to GND

3) Pin 13 at 0V = possible short to GND or open circuit to R6...

    a) If you can measure 5V at each end of R6 then you may have an open circuit between R6 and Pin 13, try reflowing the solder joints of R6 & pin 13 then perform a continuity test if case of a         cracked PCB track.

    b) If you can measure 5V across R6 then a short to ground is likely.

    c) If you measure 0V at each end of R6 then you may have an open circuit 5V to R6, try reflowing the solder joints of R6 then perform a continuity test in case you have a cracked PCB track.

[tripled79]

On 5/31/2021 at 4:53 AM, Stephen Moss said:

If the component references match those of a standard controller then with the keypad rubber membrane removed if the problem no longer exists it may have been a stuck button due to membrane misalignment during assembly.

 

However, if the issue still remain I suggest measuring the voltage between pin 10 (GND) and pins 13 (Input) and 7 (Output) of the 74HC244. With no controller buttons pressed...

1) Both the 74HC244 input and output pins are at 5V = pullup resistor & 74HC244 operating correctly, problem may be open circuit between pin 13 of the 74HC244 and pin 14 of the controller plug

2) Pin 13 at 5V but pin 7 at a lower voltage = possible failure of 74HC244 or external short of pin 7 to GND

3) Pin 13 at 0V = possible short to GND or open circuit to R6...

    a) If you can measure 5V at each end of R6 then you may have an open circuit between R6 and Pin 13, try reflowing the solder joints of R6 & pin 13 then perform a continuity test if case of a         cracked PCB track.

    b) If you can measure 5V across R6 then a short to ground is likely.

    c) If you measure 0V at each end of R6 then you may have an open circuit 5V to R6, try reflowing the solder joints of R6 then perform a continuity test in case you have a cracked PCB track.

I'll have to check on this later. I already reassembled my Jaguar. Thanks for the info though. I'm sure it will come in handy when troubleshooting this controller.