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Joe Decuir and the Atari 400GS


ratwell

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2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

the C64 was a cheaply made machine that deserved much better quality than it was afforded.

Ah...

 

Now we get to the crux of the argument (shitting on the C64 seems to be a common theme with you). I have both a C64 and an XL, and in all honesty the difference in construction quality is give and take - The original 800 however was a tank. The 128? Pfft, not interested. The 128 tried to be everything, but in the end people just used it as a C64.

 

However, as stated, when you own your own fab you can make machines cheaper than the competition. That is fairly undeniable.

 

The interwebs are littered with stories on a vast number of businessmen and their perceived poor behavior, the fact is Atari were dying before the Tramiel era and Tramiel brought them back into profitability. If it wasn't for Tramiel Atari could have died at the end of the Warner era. The ST was also a good machine, the Falcon was an awesome machine.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Allan said:

Oh great. Another Atari vs. Commodore thread. You can never have enough of those.

If it becomes another Commodore vs Atari thread I'm not interested, I own both and they're great machines with modern upgrades.

 

However, simply blaming Tramiel for all of Atari's problems is a vast oversimplification of the truth.

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I blame Tramiel and fam for many problems late in Commodores life and Atari's. The reasons are clear. I find it amusing any time some one mentions the slightest nod towards any possible issue in the C64 Mazz spazzes. It's like 98 percent of other things don't exist because you slighted the 64 in some way... I said the 64 deserved better as a compliment, it could have used better quality... an honest assessment from most Commodore folks and Atari folks... but that's the OUT we're looking for it would seem. It still won't make the rest of it go away. The links to other debates, interviews and newspaper articles are in the posts, so it's only overly simple if you don't check out the business journal, papers, interviews and links. I don't think we need a complete re telling to get the information out there. Just mention it plainly and let people read about it if they want to go further. That's kind of a norm. So a suggestion is to take in some of the the many interviews including Linda's, and read the articles and journals. The fact is not many entities or people liked them much as time progressed, and with a multitude of reasoning. That's why it was such a kerfuffle to consider bringing them to any of the later events. They were asking folks not to voice anything of it if they were to attend events. Fortunately they didn't attend much and people were civil enough in most instances.

 

Of course if you'd like to discuss the 400GS stuff that would be welcomed. Maybe digging up some info and hope more information exists and might be shared. One can wish...

Edited by _The Doctor__
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13 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I find it amusing any time some one mentions the slightest nod towards any possible issue in the C64 Mazz spazzes.

There is an irony in this, as I'm not the one spazzing over anything, you are. As stated in another thread, I'm not the one with the issue here, you are. Don't project your hatred onto me.

 

Now. Back on topic.

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11 hours ago, ratwell said:

Let’s get this back on topic...

 

Here’s Joe again, this time in the audience of this panel of 4, talking about the “strategic error”:

 

 

I think this echo's my earlier comment regarding the marketing of home computers to the average consumer in the late 70's/early 80's and how tech companies at the time were literally blindly feeling in the dark. It was luck as to whether you captured the consumer regarding a device most knew nothing about beyond games, that the consumer really couldn't afford at the time, and was most likely classed as a luxury item.

 

Obviously the 2600 was produced as efficiently as possible to keep it's cost into a fairly new at the time market low. I really don't think there was any foresight Atari could have utilized to make a device that was more compatible looking into the future as everything was so new at the time.

 

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4 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

I think this echo's my earlier comment regarding the marketing of home computers to the average consumer in the late 70's/early 80's and how tech companies at the time were literally blindly feeling in the dark. It was luck as to whether you captured the consumer regarding a device most knew nothing about beyond games, that the consumer really couldn't afford at the time, and was most likely classed as a luxury item.

 

Obviously the 2600 was produced as efficiently as possible to keep it's cost into a fairly new at the time market low. I really don't think there was any foresight Atari could have utilized to make a device that was more compatible looking into the future as everything was so new at the time.

 

Most of these "what if" threads suffer from the Magic Bullet Syndrome, no matter what platform they're about. They exhibit an underlying wish to believe that there was always some singular person, event, or a piece of kit which has either doomed, or could have been saving entire companies. This makes for a nice narrative for the fans of a particular brand, but also ignores the fact that life reflected in history was usually much more complicated and unpredictable.

 

In this particular case, I fail to see how 400GS would have changed much just by the virtue of being a consolized 8-bit micro. This has never really worked for anybody else, and there were quite a few attempts, from GX4000 to CD32. 5200 wasn't that much different from A400 anyway, which is what probably hurt it in the long run. Atari needed a true next gen console, with next gen software (though compatibility with 2600 wouldn't hurt), not a middle of the road machine with a derivative game library. But who knows, maybe even that wouldn't be enough, and some sort of crash was inevitable because of the meta market situation.

 

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13 minutes ago, youxia said:

Most of these "what if" threads suffer from the Magic Bullet Syndrome, no matter what platform they're about. They exhibit an underlying wish to believe that there was always some singular person, event, or a piece of kit which has either doomed, or could have been saving entire companies. This makes for a nice narrative for the fans of a particular brand, but also ignores the fact that life reflected in history was usually much more complicated and unpredictable.

 

In this particular case, I fail to see how 400GS would have changed much just by the virtue of being a consolized 8-bit micro. This has never really worked for anybody else, and there were quite a few attempts, from GX4000 to CD32. 5200 wasn't that much different from A400 anyway, which is what probably hurt it in the long run. Atari needed a true next gen console, with next gen software (though compatibility with 2600 wouldn't hurt), not a middle of the road machine with a derivative game library. But who knows, maybe even that wouldn't be enough, and some sort of crash was inevitable because of the meta market situation.

 

Well said and totally agreed.

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10 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

There is an irony in this, as I'm not the one spazzing over anything, you are. As stated in another thread, I'm not the one with the issue here, you are. Don't project your hatred onto me.

 

Now. Back on topic.

LMAO at your little hatred dig. Using your methods I should say anything Mazzspeed doesn't like or want to hear is hate speech. Got it.

 

I post links, article quotes, mention the interviews and facts. I even mention firs hand accounts. I still encourage folks to take a gander at the reported and stated information. The only thing more ironic is that it's clear you are the one with the issue as any mention of the c64 in a less than stellar way or any talk of the Tramiels in a less than glowing light yields this kind of drivel. I certainly didn't bring up Commodore in yet another thread having little or nothing to do with it. It's a thread about consoles, or possible consoles. If there was a plan for Commodore to make a game console on paper and in the works based on the 64, that might be interesting and pertinent to the thread. I love to see things like that.

 

The 400 would have made a great game console at release, and in a way it did... the idea isn't all that far flung.

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The reason for the original post was to draw attention to the opinion of someone who was there at the time, attended the design and decision meetings and has been generous enough to give us some insights into the history of these consoles and computers.

 

I find it interesting that Joe considers the release of the 400 as a low cost computer a strategic error on Atari’s part and I agree. Whether you are a consumer or engineer or marketer, it’s still an interesting study that has relevance today.

 

I searched for the prices of home computers that were available in Nov 1979 when the 400/800 were introduced (in USD):

 

Atari 400 (4K) $550

PET (4K) $595

TRS-80 (4K) $599

PET (8K) $795

TRS-80 (8K) $889

PET (16K) $995

Atari 800 (16K) $999

Apple ][ (16K) $1195


The 400 is clearly the best value but it had to be quite an improvement over the B&W competition with a two year head start and software libraries to match.

 

If 400/800 total lifetime units sales of 2 million and the 2:1 ratio are accurate, that means that only 1.3M 400’s were sold (until 1985 stocks were finally exhausted).

 

Given the sales of 5200’s (1M units) and 7800’s (3.7M units) and XEGS (? units sold) and Intellivision (3M units) and ColecoVision (2M units), I think the argument can be made that a VCS successor in 1979 would have generated more revenue for the company than the Atari 400.

 

Millions of consoles could have been sold based upon a unified architecture from 1979 instead of going back to the well 3 times ending up with multiple models from the same company that competed with each other.


The video game crash of 1983, the transition to Atari Corp, the lack of a 65816 upgrade path, ST’s lack of compatibility (think 800 on chip like the Mega in the Apple //GS) all happened long after the decision point in 1979 whether to include a keyboard or not.

 

Even as late as the 7800 the design of an add-on keyboard demonstrated the fundamental Atari conundrum of whether or not to ship a console, an expandable console or a complete computer:

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/7800keyboard.html

 

References:


VCS $155 (1979)
Intellivision $299 (1980)
ColecoVision $175 (1982)


VCS, Sears Catalog, Page 651

https://christmas.musetechnical.com/ShowCatalogPage/1979-Sears-Christmas-Book/0651

Apple Computer Inc. Suggested Retail Price List, Nov. 15, 1979

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple II Documentation Project/Companies/Apple/Documentation/Price Lists/Apple Price List 1979-11.pdf


TRS-80 Model 1, Radio Shack Catalog 1979, Page 78

https://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/flipbook/1979_radioshack_catalog.html

 

Commodore Pet Mail Order Ad, Compute! Fall 1979, Page 27

http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/magazines/compute/Compute-001.pdf
 

PET pricing:
https://www.commodore.ca/commodore-products/commodore-pet-the-worlds-first-personal-computer/amp/

 

The four kilobyte PET’s (yes that is 4096 bytes which equates to a whopping 4096 characters!) were offered through mail order for $495 and a three to six week wait. Immediately orders starting pouring in and so Jack Tramiel quickly adjusted the price to $595.  Then the $795 8K model was actively promoted and the 4K model was downplayed by indicating 8K machines would ship much sooner than 4K machines.

 

When Commodore expanded to Europe in 1978 Jack doubled the price for the same machine but the only physical change was a 220 watt power supply. The UK \ EU models were sold under the Commodore PET 3008 3016 and 3032 badges.  As was almost always the case in those days, Jack’s instincts were right; the re-branded but otherwise identical 3000 series and related future models were highly successful in the European markets at the higher prices.

 

Edited by ratwell
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13 hours ago, youxia said:

Most of these "what if" threads suffer from the Magic Bullet Syndrome, no matter what platform they're about. They exhibit an underlying wish to believe that there was always some singular person, event, or a piece of kit which has either doomed, or could have been saving entire companies. This makes for a nice narrative for the fans of a particular brand, but also ignores the fact that life reflected in history was usually much more complicated and unpredictable.

This.  Sure, it can be entertaining to speculate about what could / should have happened, but everyone involved (myself included) is armchair quarterbacking beyond a certain point.

Quote

In this particular case, I fail to see how 400GS would have changed much just by the virtue of being a consolized 8-bit micro. This has never really worked for anybody else, and there were quite a few attempts, from GX4000 to CD32. 5200 wasn't that much different from A400 anyway, which is what probably hurt it in the long run. Atari needed a true next gen console, with next gen software (though compatibility with 2600 wouldn't hurt), not a middle of the road machine with a derivative game library. But who knows, maybe even that wouldn't be enough, and some sort of crash was inevitable because of the meta market situation.

There's one way that I can see the 400 having worked as a console with the 800 as its big brother computer: it would have been the first of its type to market instead of the APF Imagination Machine.  Atari would have had the marketing and distribution channels to (potentially) make it a success where APF couldn't with their system.  Releasing both the computer and console at the same time with full compatibility between each other would likely have eliminated the issues with reducing an already-in-production computer down to the format of a console and appealed to a broader customer base on the software front.

 

But, like I said: that's playing what-if.  And if we're writing fiction we can pick any outcome we want because we control the narrative.  In my world, every restaurant is Taco Bell and Atari made my Jeep :-D

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2 hours ago, ClausB said:

No, the 400 was never sold with 4K. A few pre-production units maybe, but production machines had 8K minimum.

Oops. Thanks.

 

With 8K it was even a a better deal compared to the competition.

On 4/21/2021 at 2:54 PM, kheller2 said:

Cost would have been an issue.  The VCS was, what around $200 in 1980?  The 400 was over $500.  Even if you strip it down, it would probably be around $375.  I'm just guessing here.

The VCS was $155 at Sears.

Atari 400 was $550 MSRP.

 

Joe's 1977 notes on costs are very interesting:

 

1102563133_JoeDecuirEngineeringnotebook1977Page106CandyGameConsole.thumb.jpg.851af21a71229e3abbd80f3536d8d73d.jpg

Cost to to build a "Candy Game Player, Non Expandable" = $94.50 inc. labor.

 

That looks like a $250 retail cost or less if the other numbers are representative.

 

References:

 

https://archive.org/details/JoeDecuirEngineeringNotebook1977/page/n105/mode/2up

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/22/2021 at 7:15 PM, Gunstar said:

Exactly. The same old games remade slightly better. While I already owned a 130XE by the time Atari Corp. re-rolled out the 7800, I would have bought one immediately if it had new, original games. I saw the line-up of the same old classics, and they were only slightly better, if at all, to the 400/800/XL/XE originals. The only games that came out before '89 for the 7800 that I cared about was Commando, and Desert Falcon and Tower Toppler, that I was even interested in because they weren't on the A8 at the time. But not enough for me to buy a 7800.

 

Then the XEGS came out, and it was mostly the same old stuff I could already get or had for the 130XE, just on cartridge instead of disk, and then some slightly better remakes of the same-old-same-old and Atari didn't even mention that they were made slightly better (Chrystal Castles, Mario Bros.,). I bought the trickle of new games to the 8-bit line, like Desert Falcon, Into the Eagles Nest, Thunderfox and a few others.

 

Then it wasn't until '89, and after, that Atari finally started releasing more recent arcade games for the 7800 like Xenophobe and Ikari Warriors, and that's when I finally bought a 7800. Even then I only ever got about a dozen games for it as I already had most of it's library on the XE. I was always disappointed with Atari always re-hashing games. I had and loved them all for the 130XE, so why buy them again for the 7800 or cartridge versions from the XEGS line-up? In the end, there were some great original games that were finally released for the 7800 in the early '90's but still far too little and so late, after the nails in the coffin of the 7800 were already being hammered in, that what was the point? They should have spent the time and money on the Lynx which was finally a system that got more new original and later arcade releases right away instead of re-runs.

I thought it made sense that Atari brought out some games for the 7800 that were released prior on the 2600 & 5200. Asteroids alone showed what a difference there was in the graphics and play ability. Same goes for JOUST, MS. PAC-MAN, ROBOTRON & DIG DUG. First thing consumers would want to know is "what is the difference?". And letting them see side by side comparisons made it easy! The 8-bit version of Asteroids is the worst version out there, slow and sleep inducing and the same goes for the unreleased 5200 version. Also the 7800 had 2 arcade exclusives at the 1984 launch of Galaga & Xevious. Top arcade games at the time.  

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On 4/26/2021 at 10:50 AM, _The Doctor__ said:

I blame Tramiel and fam for many problems late in Commodores life and Atari's. The reasons are clear. I find it amusing any time some one mentions the slightest nod towards any possible issue in the C64 Mazz spazzes. It's like 98 percent of other things don't exist because you slighted the 64 in some way... I said the 64 deserved better as a compliment, it could have used better quality... an honest assessment from most Commodore folks and Atari folks... but that's the OUT we're looking for it would seem. It still won't make the rest of it go away. The links to other debates, interviews and newspaper articles are in the posts, so it's only overly simple if you don't check out the business journal, papers, interviews and links. I don't think we need a complete re telling to get the information out there. Just mention it plainly and let people read about it if they want to go further. That's kind of a norm. So a suggestion is to take in some of the the many interviews including Linda's, and read the articles and journals. The fact is not many entities or people liked them much as time progressed, and with a multitude of reasoning. That's why it was such a kerfuffle to consider bringing them to any of the later events. They were asking folks not to voice anything of it if they were to attend events. Fortunately they didn't attend much and people were civil enough in most instances.

 

Of course if you'd like to discuss the 400GS stuff that would be welcomed. Maybe digging up some info and hope more information exists and might be shared. One can wish...

If it weren't for the Tramiel's, I wouldn't be the life long fan of the Atari 8-bit I am, even if they only extended it's life long enough, and made it cheap enough, for me to afford. I have the older sturdier machines now, but I wouldn't have any or my life-long hobby without the Tramiel's stepping in and keeping Atari afloat for another decade, I'm also a C64 and Amiga fan (indifferent to ST's) both of which probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for the Tramiels (maybe the Amiga in some form).

 

I am also a Jaguar fan, it still being my favorite console of all-time. Again, it wouldn't exist without the Tramiels. On the other hand, I have never liked the Tramiel's for never properly supporting their machines I love, investing back into the company and products the way I felt they should, and for their, frankly, down right rotten and sometimes dishonest business practices that burned bridges for third-party support they desperately needed.

 

So I love both Commodore and Atari machines, and am a fan of the engineers behind them, but the Tramiel's sucked and seemed to do everything they possibly could to make sure their machines couldn't succeed, but succeeded in spades in alienating and industry and their own customers at every turn. But I must be always grateful the Tramiel's releasing my favorite toys I still enjoy today. I always hoped and prayed that Bushnell or someone else with an actual love and interest in designing and building the best, and with better marketing sense and better business practices would step back in and save Atari and turn it back into the the innovative industry leader that invented one industry in video games, and strives to design the next generation (something the engineers always did at least) at the highest quality, scrambling to be the industry leader in engineering and manufacturing. I'm still waiting...VCS who?

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2 hours ago, SoundGammon said:

I thought it made sense that Atari brought out some games for the 7800 that were released prior on the 2600 & 5200. Asteroids alone showed what a difference there was in the graphics and play ability. Same goes for JOUST, MS. PAC-MAN, ROBOTRON & DIG DUG. First thing consumers would want to know is "what is the difference?". And letting them see side by side comparisons made it easy! The 8-bit version of Asteroids is the worst version out there, slow and sleep inducing and the same goes for the unreleased 5200 version. Also the 7800 had 2 arcade exclusives at the 1984 launch of Galaga & Xevious. Top arcade games at the time.  

I agree, the classics in their best form factor is a must, but not at the consoles release. They needed new state-of-the-art arcade games first, get a couple dozen out there at least, then after a respectable library of new arcade hits and Atari originals is out there, then re-release the classics with the much-closer-to-arcade graphics. I do think Asteroids deluxe should have not only come with the console, but it should have been built-in, like the European released 7800, or Missile Command on the XEGS. and then two different 7800 bundles that had either Pole Position II or Xevious as a choice for a pack-in, maybe even both.

 

A dozen new arcade ports and original games should have been out for it the first year, then start sprinkling in the fantastic remakes the second year, they're already classics after all, not what's currently hot. Games like Ikari Warriors, Xenophobe, Double Dragon, Planet Smashers, Kung-fu Master, Rampage and Commando should have been initial releases, or as soon after their arcade releases as possible, and more like these and more new originals. There were a few, like Tower Toppler, Xevious, Dark Chambers, Desert Falcon, Crossbow, etc. that were out at world-wide release or soon after, but never enough and out-numbered by re-makes of the classics and a couple 8-bit computer ports like Impossible Mission and Summer Games and Touchdown Football. The great games it did get were mostly far too little, far too late, like by the time the industry was already moving to 16-bit and beyond.

 

Yes, there were Galaga and Xevious, state-of-the-art arcade games at the test market release under Atari Inc. But then by the time Atari Corp. actually released the console for real, they were already classics, out on the competition too, and no longer state-of-the-art. I'm sure things would have been totally different had Time-Warner not thrown in the towel and carried Atari Inc. through to the other side of the industry gaming crash, and the 7800 released fully in '84 with both new games, and the arcade hits of Atari remade when they weren't yet so long in the tooth, and not the majority of the releases.

Edited by Gunstar
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  • 4 weeks later...

When Joe mentions the Amiga, it might seem confusing because the Amiga is associated in people's minds with Commodore. However, the Amiga is essentially the successor to the Atari 800 and was designed independently because Atari's management in 1982 turned down Joe and Jay's proposal to make what we now know as the Amiga (what Joe refers sometimes to as "the third system" with the Atari 800 being the second system).

See the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YqDOKXQk1w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DnLmEaIhpQ&list=PLOT5j3ELi5BY9abqksYqI4U9ZH07bOtIV
http://www.blitter.com/~nebulous/amiga-articles.html

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