What's currently hot in 80-column upgrades?

[drac030]

3 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

NO, they don't make you curious. Instead, you find them profoundly dissappointing and bothersome

It is a really fortunate position when you know better than myself what my inner thoughts on the matter are. I find this really revealing.

 

5 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

You are again asking the same question, when you already got my real position on this matter, fair-and-square, right above.

Yeah. Because, pardon my French, sire, but if I ask you a question, it is ultimately me who finds the answer satisfactory or not

[Mazzspeed]

There's some extreme "my choice is the best, it has to be as I chose it" cognitive bias going on regarding a certain user here. It appears to be becoming a pattern, whether it be the XEP80 or the Atari 800 in general...

[Faicuai]

27 minutes ago, drac030 said:

but if I ask you a question, it is ultimately me who finds the answer satisfactory or not

That problem is also yours, of course. I am not here to help you overcome your (own) dissatisfaction/s.

Just like when we ask about a feature or some functional improvement on SDX and we get an "it ain't happening" answer. We just don't go around ranting about it. We simply take it and move on.

 

Do the same. You will feel much better.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Faicuai

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

Aha!!!! I can now see what the issue is!! ?

 

Look: per your (rhetorical) question, it seems that you are the one troubled with the relative "competitiveness" of the products, while I (in contrast) really don't care (an iota) which one is better than the other. I never cared about such question, to begin with.. Instead, I only care about how sufficiently effective they may be ON MY FLEET (since this whole thread is all about providing 80 columns, hopefully E: compliant).

 

You can keep those existential / competitive issues out of the equation, as they all belong to you (and reside in you). And to this effect, I does not matter who likes it or not, who cries about it or not, who moans or not, you can run a pretty decent E: in 80 columns session with the XEP80 (and with ALL of my fleet !!!) I don't care how much better it will be on VBXE, because I have minus-infinity interest on it.

 

And if you find my XEP adventures, findings, experimentation and observations irritating, That's square-and-center your problem.  Or, perhaps, you are welcome to show-and-tell the UNIQUE aspects of how an E: session can be enhanced (well beyond what's plain evident).

 

Enjoy the ride!!! (you may not like it, though... That's too bad!)

This is the same way I feel about just using 80 column software and not caring about a VBXE or XEP80 (or Bit-3) hardware 80 columns. I plan on getting a VBXE, and I will use it's hardware 80 columns when I do get it, but it has zero to do with why I want a VBXE. Software 80 columns, with the video upgrades and/or video converters I have are perfectly sharp and clear and I see no reason to buy hardware just for slightly nicer looking fonts and minutely sharper images than what I already have. Especially with Sophia 2's video output it can't get any sharper with hardware 80 columns, and can only have a nicer looking font.

 

Though I'm not sure what "fleet" refers too. My guess is you are referring to multiple Atari 8-bits as a "fleet?"

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

8 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I feel about just using 80 column software and not caring about a VBXE or XEP80 (or Bit-3) hardware 80 columns.

Dead on, as usual.

 

I happen to own two (2) Bit3, and fully operational...

 

• Would I use the XEP80 in lieu of them, at times when it better suits my needs? **OF COURSE**!
• Do I sometimes fall back out from the middle of an XEP80 session, into Antic-based 80 columns via Sophia-2? ***OF COURSE***
• Would I consider the VBXE if my current needs outgrow my existing solutions, or I would not need it in all my systems? ***OF COURSE***

 

It is about an utilitarian approach, more than anything else. For some reason, some folks appear deeply troubled with this notion, though...

Edited May 12, 2021 by Faicuai

[drac030]

9 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

That problem is also yours, of course. I am not here to help you overcome your (own) dissatisfaction/s.

Nobody expects that. You could however be kind enough to simply answer the question instead of trying to escape it. Just in case it was forgotten to this point: do you really think that anything in XEP may be called "luxury" when compared to VBXE?

 

12 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Just like when we ask about a feature or some functional improvement on SDX and we get an "it ain't happening" answer.

And when you got such an answer, to what feature request, and from whom, if you could refresh my memory?

 

[Faicuai]

4 minutes ago, drac030 said:

You could however be kind enough to simply answer the question instead of trying to escape it

 

You already have the answer. And right in your face.

 

Post #179 (yet AGAIN, so you can read it, slowly, carefully (even if you don't like it):

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Faicuai

[drac030]

8 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

You already have the answer.

Sir, it is me who asked the question, so also it is me who decides if I have the answer. Please try to focus and answer "yes" (= you do think that XEP is a real competitor to VBXE) or "no" (= you do not).

[Mathy]

Help guys

 

Could you guys stop this discussion please?  This is going nowhere.  I expected to find out something new about 80 column upgrades, not a "mine if bigger than yours" competition that goes on and on and on.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

 

[drac030]

8 minutes ago, Mathy said:

Could you guys stop this discussion please?

Why? The topic is "what is hot in 80-column upgrades". Some (minority of) disputants promote the agenda, that XEP80 is the hottest thing we have now, whereas some other (who actually have XEP and VBXE) disagree. What is the reason to stop discussing it?

[+DrVenkman]

24 minutes ago, Mathy said:

Help guys

 

Could you guys stop this discussion please?  This is going nowhere.  I expected to find out something new about 80 column upgrades, not a "mine if bigger than yours" competition that goes on and on and on.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

Awww, this thread is the best thing in years.

 

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

Sir, it is me who asked the question, so also it is me who decides if I have the answer.

No, you can't decide anything. 

 

I will spoon-feed the answer to you, instead, since you are purposely ignoring the essence of it.

 

The VBXE is NOT a product designed for the 800. I need 80-cols for MY FLEET (800s, 800XLs). The XEP80, instead, DOES RUN on all of my machines. On the other hand, the 800 is my daily driver. It is my to-go machine, for pretty much everything (turns out to be a better XL than my own 800XL!!! ?). Consequently, since the VBXE is not designed for it, AND it is not running on MY system, *I* cannot make my own comparisons and draw any relative conclusions of my own validity. For this reason, I have ZERO interest on the VBXE, and therefore I don't really care (nor I have ever cared) which one is better or not. 

 

Do you realize the implicit absurdity of your question, 100+ posts after this thread has been opened, and after I already explained before my position? Or do you still want to hang to your (irrelevant or immaterial) satisfaction criteria?

 

(My apologies, in advance, if you find my "harsh" words hurting your sweet feelings, though...)

Edited May 12, 2021 by Faicuai

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

And when you got such an answer, to what feature request, and from whom, if you could refresh my memory?

I will put you to the test, here, for everyone to see:

 

Why don't you join forces with Avery to replace SDX's imbecilic XEP80 drivers for his loads, instead, which are much better, leaner and faster?

 

Instead of wasting time here by projecting your own internal competitive-conflict, why don't you instead consider making SDX better... with SW already developed and ready to go (!!!) ?

 

Much better and smarter, if you ask me. Now, that IS truly a question that can be answered with a YES or NO, and DO NOT worry, I will not sit here stating that "it is my satisfaction the one that counts" or any of that dumb-ass nonsense, in case you say nay.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Faicuai

[+Stephen]

Your sense of self importance stuns me.  Every time I think you can't put your head farther up your own ass you do it.  Let's compare contributions here.  You vs drac030.  He is a long standing member of the SDX team.  You - are an idiot who tries to use big words to sound smart.  I guess that's the difference between someone who does actual work and someone who manages.

 

But hey, I've really enjoyed reading this thread on a nice 4k monitor.  It has a Display port cable so my video rendering chain is simple and pure.  I have all of the bandwidth required to see greater than 84 columns and 26 lines on the screen.

 

Fantastic argument for the XEP80's superiority to the VBXE too.  It works on an 800 - WOW, stunning.  Oh - let's try some more of your typing style.  YOU like the 800, and YOU think that nobody should modify machines.  So therefore the XEP-80 is the winner and we must all bow down to you.

 

Given your list for pure rendering paths with clean signal chains and high bandwidth, you should drool over the VBXE.  There's so much bandwidth required to drive the 640 pixel modes in 21-bit colour that we need fancy RGB cables.  I bet your amazing scaler would just wet itself massaging that signal, you wouldn't even have to use a shitty CRT screen.  You could also claim a pure signal path even though you have multiple devices in your high dollar specialized rendering chain.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

You - are an idiot who tries to use big words to sound smart.  I guess that's the difference between someone who does actual work and someone who manages

Considering your own "contributions" and "past choice of vocabulary", no one tops your infantile buffoonery or use big-words, on this forum (I would have taken you seriously, otherwise). And it's all over the place:

 

 

 

DRAC030 never asked me WHO had contributed more than the other. There was never such a discussion, here. Furthermore, there was never any "in-absentia" judgement of any given solution (as very clearly explained). Your out-of-context portrayal is irrelevant, as well. 

 

With such reasoning and argumentative approach, no surprise why managers would not keep beating your ass, al day long.

 

Sorry if that stuns you, too. Too bad.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Faicuai

[Gunstar]

It's great that the XEP80 works through the joystick ports so it does work with all 8-bits, including my 800, but I sure wish Atari Corp, if still supporting the 8-bit line at all, didn't take half measures like I consider this to be. I think they should have made two versions, one for the 800 in slot 3, like the Bit-3, and one for PBI/ECI. Yes, that would have left the 400, 1200XL and some 65XE owners in the cold, though the 400 is probably much less likely a machine that someone wants to use 80-column productivity software on than might be the case for the other two, but I don't like the idea of clogging up the controller port(s) for video (or printing for that matter) that you may want to be able to use with those same programs you want to use with 80-columns. like a joystick for menus or possibly a CX85 keypad or even a mouse. which is likely for some productivity software beyond word processing that make use of them and 80-columns too. And I feel this way about the XEP-80 even though I myself own a 1200XL, but maybe that doesn't mean much since I installed PBI's to both my 800 and 1200XL. 

 

It's certainly nothing against the use of controller ports for hardware I/O in general, otherwise I wouldn't be installing another 4 in my 800! It merely the fact that so programs I want to use with 80 columns have the ability for controlling them through ports one and two. I'm not referring to only legacy necessarily, made for or patched for various 80-column options in the past, but some new productivity software that may take advantage of 80-columns and various controller ports as well, and maybe some legacy software that has never before been patched for 80-column use that may be in the future, that also uses controllers and/or CX85. 

 

I forget, does the XEP80 use one or both controller ports? And if only one, which one? And can it be used through ports 3 and 4 on the 800 instead, or XEP80 drivers patched to do so? If so, that would go a long way in changing my attitude toward the XEP80 connected through controller port(s) for a 80-column video solution.  Not that it would make be get one, but if one came my way I would use it if ports 1 and 2 could still be free.

 

But as things stand (assuming the XEP80 has to use ports 1 and/or 2, if I felt the need for a hardware 80-column solution over my current software solutions, I'd still have to pick a VBXE for my XL and a Bit-3 or similar for my 800. But that's the only reason atm. If I find out I can use ports 3 and 4 instead, then my choice would be based only on availability and price otherwise any would be an acceptable hardware solution. IF I thought I needed one, which I don't.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

28 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

but I sure wish Atari Corp, if still supporting the 8-bit line at all, didn't take half measures like I consider this to be. I think they should have made two versions, one for the 800 in slot 3, like the Bit-3, and one for PBI/ECI

 

What is really interesting is trying the latest emulation of PBI-based 80-cols. card recently included in Altirra.

 

It auto-starts from PBI, but I could not get past booting SDX from U1MB / SIDE, for instance. Could not make work Bit3 as well, and there the scenario is more complicated because of how $D6XX region is used, for instance.

 

28 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I forget, does the XEP80 use one or both controller ports? And if only one, which one? And can it be used through ports 3 and 4 on the 800 instead, or XEP80 drivers patched to do so?

Currently, either ports ONE or TWO.

 

There are proof-of-concept demos on the original disk, where you connect the XEP80 to port #2 and joystick to port #1, so you can scroll the 256x24 character space (it moves fast, and concurrently, that is, scrolls horizontally while the system is sending new data to the XEP).

 

However ports 3 and 4 are NOT used (and have not asked Avery, for instance, if Ultra drivers could be implemented or re-timed through those ports)... I think those could have been better (?), as long as they can be optionally used, so compatibility is maintained across the whole line-up.

 

Currently, the XEP is about 9% slower than my Bit3s, in basic listings, line-by-line output, etc.. HOWEVER, once you fill the screen, and want to insert or delete lines, for instance, the XEP blows the Bit3 away, which is very interesting.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Faicuai

[drac030]

13 hours ago, Faicuai said:

The VBXE is NOT a product designed for the 800.

I know that I also know that for you it is the cause to reject the device, but that does not deny basic facts: that XEP is a very miserable 80-column solution, being slow, kludgy, producing awful display. Worse even, even built in its times, it could be better, it has just been awfully engineered. It seriously looks like someone's kid project for school.

 

13 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Why don't you join forces with Avery to replace SDX's imbecilic XEP80 drivers for his loads, instead, which are much better, leaner and faster?

What for? You already have the ALT*.SYS drivers, what is the point in creating them again?

 

13 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Instead of wasting time here by projecting your own internal competitive-conflict

It is true that this forum is pure waste of time, thus I indeed tend to avoid it, but I must admit that it is entertaining sometimes and I cannot resist

 

[Faicuai]

5 hours ago, drac030 said:

I know that I also know that for you it is the cause to reject the device, but that does not deny basic facts: that XEP is a very miserable 80-column solution,

I only pay attention to what I can see / corroborate on my end (and my needs, of course). And if my findings don't match your opinion, that's about it.

 

However, I did take time to run a few searches on Google, as a gauge of interest / activity / sales, etc. The results are eye-opening to say the least:

 

(UPDATE: now including Bit3 data....)

 

"Bit3 FullView":                     20,300 hits

"VBXE" :                               28,600 hits

"XEP80" :                              31,500 hits

 

"VBXE 80 COLUMN":                2,040 hits

"XEP   80 COLUMN":             127,000 hits

"Bit3   80 COLUMN":             452,000 hits

 

"ATARI VBXE":                       12,800 hits

"ATARI Bit3":                         32,000 hits

"ATARI SOPHIA":                  517,000 hits

"ATARI XEP":                     1,290,000 hits

 

"ATARI VBXE pre-order":           6,110 hits

"ATARI SOPHIA pre-order":    529,000 hits

 

(Including Sophia, since it delivers a pristine, beautiful digital image, ideal for rendering Antic-driven 80-columns)

 

There is a very strong correlation of these numbers with people's actual interest on these subjects and the sought nature of the solutions. Curiously, It reflects verbatim my own interest, for the reasons I previously stated above (Just wondering if it was only me).

 

What I do find truly interesting, though, is the blatant effort that is being unrolled HERE, just to openly state that one (1) solution is absolute crap (not worth considering), whereas the other is "to die for", as well laid by those that specifically support (and clap for) such buffoonish and unsolicited approach. We can all see them clearly, now.

 

At this point, all I can factually state is that my current 80-cols. needs are very well met with (primarily) the XEP80 (and Ultra drivers), plus falling-back to Sophia / Antic-driven 80 columns, via DVI, for anything that needs just that. For legacy titles and retro-exploring, I also use the Bit3 (which also provides another solid reference of real retro 80-cols. HW designed specifically for Atari). Whomever likes that or not, is completely irrelevant, at this point.

 

 

 

 

[drac030]

7 hours ago, Faicuai said:

However, I did take time to run a few searches on Google, as a gauge of interest / activity / sales, etc. The results are eye-opening to say the least:

 

(UPDATE: now including Bit3 data....)

 

"Bit3 FullView":                     20,300 hits

"VBXE" :                               28,600 hits

"XEP80" :                              31,500 hits

 

"VBXE 80 COLUMN":                2,040 hits

"XEP   80 COLUMN":             127,000 hits

"Bit3   80 COLUMN":             452,000 hits (...)

I also did a search. "Shit" returns 370,000,000 hits. So, please, what was your argument, again?

[+Stephen]

25 minutes ago, drac030 said:

I also did a search. "Shit" returns 370,000,000 hits. So, please, what was your argument, again?

Interesting.  I did a search for self entitled douche-bag manager with no real-life skills, and got 420,069 hits.  I guess it's a common thing, not just in my experience.

[Mazzspeed]

I'd assume the buggier product would get more hits on Google as users try to work out why 80x25 lines won't fit on their modern display device and generally looks like ass.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

I also did a search. "Shit" returns 370,000,000 hits. So, please, what was your argument, again?

Well, following your reasoning, I searched "Three Stooges 80 columns"....

 

Funny, I Got only one (1) hit, abd pointing here (?)

 

 

 

Bizarre, to say the least....

 

[+mytek]

Folks "Ignore" is your friend, but you've got to set it first

[+Stephen]

You're doing it wrong.  I searched for arrogant imbecile that wants a slow, out of spec, monochrome device rather than a full 21-bit colour 640*240 text and bitmap device with 7+MHz blitter (because you love bandwidth) that can be programmed to interlace and do 640*480.  RGB - the purest video path, cleanest rendering chain, highest bandwidth 3 cable design with synch on green.

 

We've moved past 1979 unfortunately.  I like older cars but I'll take my 87 Daytona over a 1912 Model A.  XEP-80 was a shitty design when it came out.  It is usable in 2021 because of NEW softwareI ThAt CaMe aBOut because of great coders like Phaeron.  BITD it was a slow piece of shit.  You think any Apple II user with an 80 column card running at full buss speed was worried about some janky-ass serial joystick port cobbled together out of spec video device?