What's currently hot in 80-column upgrades?

[Faicuai]

14 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

Symmetry is pleasing to the eye, there's none of that in that screenshot

 

For anyone who may still be wondering, here are a couple of (more careful) that anyone can use to evaluate, almost at 1:1 pixel size how Sophia-2 DVI (Antic) vs. XEP80 (in 80x24 PAL mode would look like (maximum possible dynamic range on the shots, to keep blown-highlights on the fonts at  a minimum):

 

XEP80:

 

Sophia-2 DVI/D:

 

If anyone has a 1280x1024 native, these would be as close as they will get to looking at real HW (just a tad softer, as post-processing was kept to a bare minimum).

 

The images are essentially centered, and the content is what it is (a large .TXT file courtesy of AtariMania with most of A8 pinout summary).

 

Another (anecdotical) thought that came recently when using the XEP80 is that, in the event of a total video interface black-out (RF, Composite, Y/C and DVI/d, due to a failure of Sophia, for instance), we could still use the XEP80 as an emergency back-door to regain access to a console-session with the host A8 (for whatever need)... There are different ways to boot on a video "black-out" but SDX's own SPARTA.DOS folder with pre-configured .CFG would come very, very handy for this.

 

There could definitely be other considerations or benefits, even beyond the concept of 80-columns, per se.

[+Stephen]

One thing's for sure - as cool as the software 80 column modes are, 3X5 fonts are really hard on the eyes after a short while so anything that gives a true 8 pixel wide 80 column character is a welcome upgrade.

[drac030]

18 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

I’m happy with my 80-column device. 

 

I must say, that when I first saw how the standard Atari system font looks like when displayed in 80-column resolution, I was very impressed. It looks as if it was drawn especially for this purpose.

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

One thing's for sure - as cool as the software 80 column modes are, 3X5 fonts are really hard on the eyes after a short while so anything that gives a true 8 pixel wide 80 column character is a welcome upgrade.

That is true, but for me, an avid "80" column software user who enjoys the same crystal clear image above for 80 columns, I actually only use 80 columns with TLWP. When using SDX and languages and programs that use E: screen modes, I prefer to use the 64 column mode. It's a far cry from 40 columns and the font is better on the eyes than long-term with 80 columns. A very pleasing and acceptable compromise and alternative and even more of a reason why I'm happy sticking to software "80" column until I end up with a VBXE and hardware 80-columns as a "bonus" since I want VBXE for all the other reasons it has beyond an 80-column screen.

[Mazzspeed]

I looked at hardware 80 columns, I actually had VBXE as part of my cart when I bought all the upgrades for my 600XL, but I just can't be bothered with the 15khz output.

 

I use software 80 columns nightly under ICE-T and it looks fine, I even use software 80 columns on my C64 under Striketerm and it looks fine on my 1084S - The only other time I'll use software 80 columns is under TLW to view .DOC files.

 

Essentially, I'm doing fine using just svideo out to my LCD with software 80 columns, at most I might get Sophia 2. I wouldn't use a hardware 80 column device enough to make it worthwhile and TBH, 40 columns gives me the Atari experience as it was intended and I'm happy with that. However I'd love to stumble across a 1084 (1081) monitor in good condition with perhaps a faulty flyback at most that I could connect my A8 to - Flybacks are easy to replace.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[+DrVenkman]

29 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

I looked at hardware 80 columns, I actually had VBXE as part of my cart when I bought all the upgrades for my 600XL, but I just can't be bothered with the 15khz output.

It would be REALLY great if a future variant - using a new/faster/cheaper CPLD - could output 60 Hz. Even it it retained RGB output, it's easy as hell to find 60hz VGA and SVGA monitors still, and converting a 60Hz RGB signal to DVI or HDMI should pretty straightforward as well. 

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

I first saw how the standard Atari system font looks like when displayed in 80-column resolution, I was very impressed

Quite often, we attempt to model or fit a given "retro" experience in accordance to those very first, long-lasting impressions that eventually shape our perception for years to come. Sometimes, such impressions come from unexpected / unrelated places.

 

I remember one of those very first impressions when coming in contact for the first time with a true, text-based 80x24 CRT screen. While not having anything in common with the CRTs I had back home, I was just blown away when I took my first swipe at reading those screens:

 

 

 

 

The IBM 3278 was the most clear, pristine-looking text-display I had ever seen before and after working with it (at least, the ones we had in our computer lab, where I programmed in older mainframe's Assembler and PL/1). To such a point that I remember going to the PS/2 and Mac (!) labs, and even back to my 640x200 color-CRT 1040 STf, and none could match that gorgeous, finely-traced, green-characters screen.

 

Scan-lines? Blooming? Dot-pitch? For the life of me, I just cannot remember any of that when looking directly at the screens of those "futuristic" 1970s-look terminals... I am not sure if others have the same recollection, but the image above is pretty close to what I saw.

 

In my case, and for a long time, coming close to the definition and contrast that I fondly remember has been at the top of my wish-list whenever I read "80-columns".

 

 

[drac030]

17 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

It would be REALLY great if a future variant - using a new/faster/cheaper CPLD - could output 60 Hz.

You are speaking of VBXE? It does not generate sync signals, 50 or 60 Hz frame comes from the Antic.

 

@Faicuai I am sure that you are right, first impressions often define taste for something for years. But I was not speaking of that. Actually, the first computer which had a hardware 80-column mode I saw was Amiga 500. Then PC/AT with Hercules card. Then Atari ST. Then XEP80. Then, yup, IBM 3270 (or was it 3290? I do not remember), because there was a node of EARN at my university.

 

But, as said, I am not speaking of the 80-column screen itself, just of Atari 8-bit system font displayed in that resolution. It got me immediately, probably because it was both familiar and new at the same time. Also the 1090 80-column board uses this font (AFAIK), so it probably looked equally well.

Edited May 13, 2021 by drac030

[Mazzspeed]

I've still got a WYSE terminal, I planned on connecting it to an IMSAI 8080 clone or similar. Still haven't got around to it.

 

[+DrVenkman]

13 minutes ago, drac030 said:

You are speaking of VBXE? It does not generate sync signals, 50 or 60 Hz frame comes from the Antic.

Right. But a future version COULD take that 50/60hz and scale it internally to generate a 60hz output. 

[Mazzspeed]

15 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Scan-lines? Blooming? Dot-pitch? For the life of me, I just cannot remember any of that when looking directly at the screens of those "futuristic" 1970s-look terminals... I am not sure if others have the same recollection, but the image above is pretty close to what I saw.

Scan lines would have been there, they have to be. Blooming is really only a problem on colour CRT's or poorly adjusted monochrome CRT's, and monochrome CRT's really don't have a dot pitch where analogue circuitry is concerned as they have no shadow mask - The only limitation to resolution regarding a monochrome CRT is basically the sync frequencies the electronics can handle before blowing up.

[Mazzspeed]

3 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Right. But a future version COULD take that 50/60hz and scale it internally to generate a 60hz output. 

Basically what the Indivisions do on the Amiga.

[+slx]

On 5/14/2021 at 1:14 AM, Mazzspeed said:

I've still got a WYSE terminal, I planned on connecting it to an IMSAI 8080 clone or similar. Still haven't got around to it.

 

Very cool looking device!

[Mazzspeed]

48 minutes ago, slx said:

Very cool looking device!

The keyboard uses Cherry black switches and the CRT has absolutely no screen burn. I drove miles to pick it up, one day I'll use it I'm sure!

[Geister]

I'm waiting for a PI-Storm for the Atari that gives modern resolution screens to the old 8-bit and also include an accelerator and emulation that supports your choice of OS ROM.  HDMI output at 132 columns with some colored font tricks would be sweet.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 hours ago, Geister said:

I'm waiting for a PI-Storm for the Atari that gives modern resolution screens to the old 8-bit and also include an accelerator and emulation that supports your choice of OS ROM.  HDMI output at 132 columns with some colored font tricks would be sweet.

U1MB plus Sophia 2?  I get your point about higher-than-stock resolutions, but that would involve changes to C/GTIA, probably ANTIC, and an accelerator would be pretty much a requirement.

 

Also, who will develop the software to take advantage of the hardware?  The idea's neat, but without software it's not useful.

[+Stephen]

51 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

U1MB plus Sophia 2?  I get your point about higher-than-stock resolutions, but that would involve changes to C/GTIA, probably ANTIC, and an accelerator would be pretty much a requirement.

 

Also, who will develop the software to take advantage of the hardware?  The idea's neat, but without software it's not useful.

Once again, I will state.  We have the VBXE2 for over a decade.  It and only it offers higher than stock A8 resolutions.  Why the hell do people keep suggesting "let's make some magical new hardware from unicorn farts" when nobody gives a damn or supports what we already have?

[Faicuai]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

nobody gives a damn or supports what we already have?

But then the real question (and now history-lesson) would be why "nobody gives a damn"?

 

If that ends up being the case, then answering and understanding (first) such reality is essential to move forward.

 

 

[chevymad]

I think a modernized vbxe with a more generic output that works with US based monitors and TV's would be the answer. If the device had the same output as Sophia2 but all extra's of the vbxe i'd buy another in a second.

[Faicuai]

9 minutes ago, chevymad said:

If the device had the same output as Sophia2 but all extra's of the vbxe i'd buy another in a second.

That, and close enough to Sophia's  ease-of-installation and reversibility.

 

More engineering  may be required to make it happen that way, and also leveraging the architecture of the target A8 host (machines are different, and need to account for that).

[drpeter]

40 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

why "nobody gives a damn"?

 

This question is the nub of it, and by 'nobody' we really mean software developers.

 

I guess it comes down to what the real core of the Atari 'retro' experience is for software developers.

 

It may be largely the satisfaction of solving the puzzle of squeezing surprising results from restricted hardware whose (apparent) capabilities are well-known, along with enough other fellow users to form an appreciative audience.

 

Paradoxically, VBXE and any other substantial core hardware advance on the 1.8 Mhz 6502/ANTIC/POKEY/GTIA setup detracts from both of these incentives to code.

 

Bottom line, I don't expect any very substantial game/demo/productivity application software base to emerge for ANY mod that can't run with this core hardware setup. 

[chevymad]

If it works as it should, I don't care if it's easily reversible or requires soldering. I'd even drill holes for it. My atari's will never be museum pieces, so I'll use them as I wish and have fun doing it. 

[drac030]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Why the hell do people keep suggesting "let's make some magical new hardware from unicorn farts" when nobody gives a damn or supports what we already have?

Because it is easier to dream about new hardware than to write a program for the actual one. We really have the hardware and the tools - the number of programming languages will probably soon exceed the number of programmers, if not already have. This is the lack of manpower what beats everything.

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

That, and close enough to Sophia's  ease-of-installation and reversibility.

 

More engineering  may be required to make it happen that way, and also leveraging the architecture of the target A8 host (machines are different, and need to account for that).

What are you talking about ease of installation?  Do you know how these devices work?  Each replaces a single 40 pin LSI in the Atari.  If either is socketed, they are plug and play.  If not, one has to remove and install a socket.  With both being plug and play, both are reversible.  Ease of installation is not a valid argument for VBXE uptake or lack there-of.  Also - any new magical non-existent device would have the same issues.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

What are you talking about ease of installation? 

What anyone here can read, freely (unless, of course, these are outdated):

 

https://lotharek.pl/files/vbxe/manual.pdf