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kynikos

Weird video issue

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Hi all, I'm getting a weird drop shadow effect on white colors, mostly text, with my Jaguar that I can't figure out  (see attached photo). I get the same effect using three different s-video and RGB cables (s-video cable from B&C and Jag2SNES adapter w/ SNES RGB/s-video) that don't do the same thing with other consoles. I first thought it was part of the JagGD UI but then noticed it more when trying out different games. Any idea what's going on and how to fix it?

jag_shadow.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I just got my Jag2SNES adapter and I'm having the same issue. It reminds me of the problem pre-1Chip SNES consoles have with smearing colors, where the voltage rises and falls too slowly during brightness changes, so maybe it has a similar cause?

I've posted several pics here that show the horizontal smearing/streaking/color bleed/whatever you want to call it. It's visible in all colors, but most dramatic in bright-to-dark transitions.

I'm using the Jag2SNES from @Doomy Doomer and Helder, plugged into an Insurrection Industries SNES/N64 RGB SCART cable, plugged into an OSSC. For these pics it was set to generic 4:3 and 5X, although the issue looks basically the same on any scaling or sampling mode.

Is this normal for the Jaguar? Or for specific revisions of the Jaguar? If not, is it likely to be a problem with the adapter?

I've had the OSSC and the SCART cable for ages, and they work as expected with other consoles.

Edited by DragonFire

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Not normal, no. 

I use the official atari peritel (SCART) cable with my US Jag and it exhibits none of these issues. 

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20 hours ago, DragonFire said:

I just got my Jag2SNES adapter and I'm having the same issue. It reminds me of the problem pre-1Chip SNES consoles have with smearing colors, where the voltage rises and falls too slowly during brightness changes, so maybe it has a similar cause?

I've posted several pics here that show the horizontal smearing/streaking/color bleed/whatever you want to call it. It's visible in all colors, but most dramatic in bright-to-dark transitions.

I'm using the Jag2SNES from @Doomy Doomer and Helder, plugged into an Insurrection Industries SNES/N64 RGB SCART cable, plugged into an OSSC. For these pics it was set to generic 4:3 and 5X, although the issue looks basically the same on any scaling or sampling mode.

Is this normal for the Jaguar? Or for specific revisions of the Jaguar? If not, is it likely to be a problem with the adapter?

I've had the OSSC and the SCART cable for ages, and they work as expected with other consoles.

Glad to know I'm not alone but sorry you're also having the same issues. I'm using the same Insurrection cable plugged into a Framemeister (also tried various profiles to no avail) but don't have the same issues color bleeding with my AV Famicom, N64, or various SNES revisions. Never had this issue with any of my other consoles, cables, and/or Framemeister. I have a K series Jaguar that has never been recapped to my knowledge.

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Posted (edited)

Hey Guys,

Just saw this. I don't have the Insurrection cables to test like for like, just a $10 amazon SCART and HD Retrovision cables for RGB. I can confirm that what you are seeing is not normal and it's either the cable or your OSSC settings but my guess is the cable. That's not to say the cable is defective in anyway but just because this cable works fine on it's intended consoles doesn't mean it'll work perfectly on the Jag. Every console is different in how it handles RGB signals and SCART adds an extra layer of potential issues. That being said, I took a look at the Insurrection Cables SNES Scart page and this line sticks out to me:

Quote

This cable will only work for modified consoles (Such as the N64) which are configured to output TTL (unattenuated) C-sync to pin 3 of the AV multi-out

Emphasis added to "unattenuated" C-Sync. The Jag2SNES and Jag2GEN properly attenuate CSYNC so people don't fry their equipment with TTL level voltage. I suspect that doing double the voltage drop on the CSYNC line is causing your issues but I can't say for certain since I don't own one of their cables. You can try to mitigate some of this in the OSSC timings/settings.

 

Here are some similar off screen cellphone pics of Cybermorph with HD Retrovision cables and my OSSC:

YHWXbd5.jpg

 

gB6XVXd.jpg

 

bCpb8EY.jpg

 

For what it's worth, Voultar mentioned by name these insurrection cables as having some ground issues:

 

Edited by Doomy Doomer
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2 hours ago, Doomy Doomer said:

For what it's worth, Voultar mentioned by name these insurrection cables as having some ground issues:

 

Thanks for the reply!

Is it possible that the adapters would work better with cables that don't use c-sync? Almost any Genesis/SNES SCART cable that uses c-sync will attenuate it to 75ohms for safety, since both consoles output TTL sync unless they've been modified to behave differently. That's why the page has a note about modded consoles possibly needing a different cable. The HD Retrovision cables (and most affordable SCART cables) use sync-on-composite instead, which is already 75ohms.

Either way, I'll definitely try to fix the grounding issue! That should (hopefully) improve their performance on any console.

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1 minute ago, DragonFire said:

Thanks for the reply!

Is it possible that the adapters would work better with cables that don't use c-sync? Almost any Genesis/SNES SCART cable that uses c-sync will attenuate it to 75ohms for safety, since both consoles output TTL sync unless they've been modified to behave differently. That's why the page has a note about modded consoles possibly needing a different cable. The HD Retrovision cables (and most affordable SCART cables) use sync-on-composite instead, which is already 75ohms.

Either way, I'll definitely try to fix the grounding issue! That should (hopefully) improve their performance on any console.

You're hitting on all the points I'm trying to make above. I think the bottom line is this: if you're going to use a SCART cable you'll need to know what's in it to get the best picture, which is always the case with SCART. 

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Makes sense. Since I prefer to use c-sync cables (which all attenuate the signal) is there any way to modify the adapter to pass through SNES-style TTL sync?

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Posted (edited)

The problem is, I'm not entirely convinced this is solely a CSYNC filtering issue. I've been down this road before when I tested these adapters for weeks. That being said, I just dissected my cheap SCART cable to make sure it's filtering CSYNC on pin 3 of the SNES connector, which it is. Here's another like for like photo:

5Ppheqe.jpg

 

Sure there's a bit more after image than the HD Retrovision cables but guys.... this is an unshielded $8.95 SCART cable and it looks light years better then the pics you guys have been posting. Obviously, your mileage is absolutely going to vary based on the quality of your cables. Below is how this cheap cable is wired up. You can see there's a 330 ohm resistor on the Sync line, which I'd imagine the Insurrection cables have something similar.

 

LvgSHVm.jpg

 

Looking through my notes, I did make one OSSC adjustment with this cable from back when I purchased it for testing. I set the "Analog Sync Vth" to 180mV. Tonight I toggled that back to defaults and the picture did get slightly more "fuzzy" but again nothing like the smearing your cables are exhibiting. Can you guys give that a shot and see if it helps? At the risk of sounding a bit biased, I really think the issue lies with the Insurrection cables. 

 

The TL;DR I've proven out that even with a SCART cable that's attenuating the Sync line with a 330 ohm resistor, the picture looks just fine through the Jag2SNES. Changing that Analog Sync Vth setting helps with "fuzziness" on my cheap SCART cable.

Edited by Doomy Doomer
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You've definitely proven that it's the cable at fault and I really appreciate all the info. I'll order a new one asap. Apologies for all the questions - I'm still learning how analog RGB video works so I can troubleshoot this stuff myself, and a lot of it is still way over my head.

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Posted (edited)

Appreciate all the info. I'll probably give it a go with the cheap cable and maybe try to track down an official Jaguar SCART cable as well. Sometimes I feel like the more pricey SCART cables are more trouble than they're worth for some consoles.

 

It's just weird that I'd have similar smearing using the adapter but with Nintendo OEM s-video cables as well as the s-video cable I picked up for the Jaguar.

Edited by kynikos

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9 hours ago, DragonFire said:

You've definitely proven that it's the cable at fault and I really appreciate all the info. I'll order a new one asap. Apologies for all the questions - I'm still learning how analog RGB video works so I can troubleshoot this stuff myself, and a lot of it is still way over my head.

No problem at all. Questions are good because if others have an issue they can search and find this post for help.

 

8 hours ago, kynikos said:

Appreciate all the info. I'll probably give it a go with the cheap cable and maybe try to track down an official Jaguar SCART cable as well. Sometimes I feel like the more pricey SCART cables are more trouble than they're worth for some consoles.

 

It's just weird that I'd have similar smearing using the adapter but with Nintendo OEM s-video cables as well as the s-video cable I picked up for the Jaguar.

No problem. I'd like to try and narrow down the issue for you.  Can you list what cable types / brands you've been using as well as what scaler you're using to take these cables to your TV? Also, what power supply are you using for your Jag?

 

FWIW, The Chrome and Luma signals are completely untouched in the Jag2SNES adapter. It's a straight run from the AV edge to the SNES socket in the adapter, so it's very unlikely the Jag2SNES is the single point of failure in my opinion.

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I don't recall anything like this with the older SNES2JAG adapter that I had (Still have it somewhere). But I was initially using nintendo s-video cable on it and never did try the RGB route from it back then. I'm not using an actual SCART RGB cable off my Jag and I'm pretty sure I purchased that cable from Retrogamingcables in the UK. This was 2 years ago now when shipping and everything was much more reasonable. I actually use two Insurrection Industries cables in my setup that I've not had any issues with. One is their Genesis/Megadrive 2 AV RGB SCART cable and the other is an SNES RGB SCART cable. But I never tried to use the SNES cable with the Jag as I purchased that cable after I already had the Jag on RGB.  If I can track down my older SNES2Jag adapter (Was made using one of the Cube RF modulator boxes), I could give it a test and see as all of my RGB goes into a Bainridge switcher and then to my OSSC. I think I have a specific profile I even created for my Jag through the OSSC to get the best results from it.

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5 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I don't recall anything like this with the older SNES2JAG adapter that I had (Still have it somewhere). But I was initially using nintendo s-video cable on it and never did try the RGB route from it back then. I'm not using an actual SCART RGB cable off my Jag and I'm pretty sure I purchased that cable from Retrogamingcables in the UK. This was 2 years ago now when shipping and everything was much more reasonable. I actually use two Insurrection Industries cables in my setup that I've not had any issues with. One is their Genesis/Megadrive 2 AV RGB SCART cable and the other is an SNES RGB SCART cable. But I never tried to use the SNES cable with the Jag as I purchased that cable after I already had the Jag on RGB.  If I can track down my older SNES2Jag adapter (Was made using one of the Cube RF modulator boxes), I could give it a test and see as all of my RGB goes into a Bainridge switcher and then to my OSSC. I think I have a specific profile I even created for my Jag through the OSSC to get the best results from it.

Hey CrossBow, appreciate the input but this won't help rule anything out (or in) for kynikos. The SNES2JAG isn't the same thing as the Jag2SNES. Same concept, completely different execution. I've already proven out that the Jag2SNES has zero issues with even the cheapest of SCART cables via OSSC. I also tested a bunch of SNES S-Video cables with varying degrees of picture quality based on the quality of the cables. I believe kynikos' problem is his setup but waiting on his reply. If he's using S-Video cables, he's not going directly into an OSSC so I suspect something between or whatever scaler is the issue. @kynikos I also spoke with Helder and he said if you're unhappy with the adapter, contact him for a return/refund. 

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My apologies. I was under the impression that the adapter was to allow for use of the SNES AV cables with a Jag? I thought Helder's adapter was the same thing just in a different made for case? Or are we talking about using Jaguar AV cables on an SNES console?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

My apologies. I was under the impression that the adapter was to allow for use of the SNES AV cables with a Jag? I thought Helder's adapter was the same thing just in a different made for case? Or are we talking about using Jaguar AV cables on an SNES console?

 

 

The Jag2SNES does take JAG AV to SNES AV but Helder's adapter, and my own Genesis Jag2GEN adapter, are not the same things as Jody's SNES/GEN2JAG adapter. From what he's told us his board uses completely different components hand soldered onto protoboards (or SNES RGB socket PCBs). Our adapters are custom made PCBs with components professionally assembled. We also used the original Jaguar technical documentation to build these adapters in spec. So comparing whatever output you're seeing on your SNES2JAG adapter isn't going to be a 1:1 comparison to the Jag2SNES. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

Edit: Also want to say that I'm not calling Jody's adapters bad in anyway - his adapters work great from what I've read.

Edited by Doomy Doomer

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Doomy Doomer said:

No problem at all. Questions are good because if others have an issue they can search and find this post for help.

 

No problem. I'd like to try and narrow down the issue for you.  Can you list what cable types / brands you've been using as well as what scaler you're using to take these cables to your TV? Also, what power supply are you using for your Jag?

 

FWIW, The Chrome and Luma signals are completely untouched in the Jag2SNES adapter. It's a straight run from the AV edge to the SNES socket in the adapter, so it's very unlikely the Jag2SNES is the single point of failure in my opinion.

I've tried the Jag2SNES adapter with an official Nintendo s-video cable (SHVC-009) and Insurrection Industries SCART cable (https://insurrectionindustries.com/product/super-nintendo-entertainment-system-rgb-scart-cable/). Both cables work fine with the RGB-modded AV Famicom that lives next to the Jag as I got the adapter so they could share cables.

 

I also tried an s-video cable from B&C (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133262880843) plugged in directly to the Jag to see if it was the adapter. They all seemed to have similar blurring.

 

All of this is going into a gscartsw (http://www.gretrostuff.com/store/gscartsw-v3-4/) SCART switch (aside from s-video cables) and then Framemeister scaler. The Jag is powered by an official Atari power pack (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133391094429).

Edited by kynikos

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4 minutes ago, kynikos said:

I've tried the Jag2SNES adapter with an official Nintendo s-video cable (SHVC-009) and Insurrection Industries SCART cable (https://insurrectionindustries.com/product/super-nintendo-entertainment-system-rgb-scart-cable/). Both cables work fine with the RGB-modded AV Famicom that lives next to the Jag as I got the adapter so they could share cables.

 

I also tried an s-video cable from B&C (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133262880843) plugged in directly to the Jag to see if it was the adapter. They all seemed to have similar blurring.

 

All of this is going into a gscartsw SCART switch (aside from s-video cables) and then Framemeister scaler. The Jag is powered by an official Atari power pack (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133391094429).

Now we're getting somewhere. How about your Framemeisters profile, is it setup properly for the Jaguar? 

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1 hour ago, Doomy Doomer said:

Now we're getting somewhere. How about your Framemeisters profile, is it setup properly for the Jaguar? 

I've tried profiles with settings suggested for 240p consoles from My Life in Gaming videos as well as the FirebrandX Jag profile (https://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html) and it seems to have the blurring no matter what. Other than that, I don't know what specific settings I'd need to tweak for Jaguar. I'm using 720p for my Framemeister profiles as I have a 4K TV and that seems to work best for upscaling.

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Not sure if I bought this scart lead back in the day or it one I got from Atari

 

20210518_194302.thumb.jpg.316ac221e5116f76546b15014168dbfa.jpg

 

The switch is either on or off. I tried to open the end but its stubborn and won't move so I am not forcing it. When I was playing about with the ST I was using RGB Scart to get the best image out of it. I wonder if the switch of this cable is the composite / rgb switch for pin 16 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART )

 

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1 hour ago, kynikos said:

I've tried profiles with settings suggested for 240p consoles from My Life in Gaming videos as well as the FirebrandX Jag profile (https://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html) and it seems to have the blurring no matter what. Other than that, I don't know what specific settings I'd need to tweak for Jaguar. I'm using 720p for my Framemeister profiles as I have a 4K TV and that seems to work best for upscaling.

Those would be the settings I would have suggested too. I really wish I had a Framemeister, so I could do a like for like here but I went the OSSC route. Ok, here's my point of view on your issue. The Jag2SNES is just a passthrough for Red, Green, Blue, Chroma and Luma to the SNES socket. It's as if you took a genuine Jag AV cable and connected it directly to your TV from the Jag. The Jag2SNES isn't doing any filtering to the those signals, which means you're getting all those signals exactly as your Jag is outputting it via traces on a PCB. For me that's the biggest telltale sign it's most likely not the adapter. It's also worth mentioning that S-Video doesn't use Sync, so it's not a sync related issue otherwise you'd see some kind of difference between RGB and S-Video.

 

I think it's the combination of your Jag, cables, and Framemeister that's causing the smearing. It's a bummer and I know that's probably not what you want to hear but ultimately that's what it sounds like. At the end of the day though you shouldn't be unhappy with something you've purchased. I'm sure Helder will happily take the adapter back and refund you even though I highly doubt it's the actual Jag2SNES that's causing the issue. In fact, if you do send it back, I'm going to have him mail it to me so I can put it through my gauntlet of testing.

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9 hours ago, Doomy Doomer said:

Those would be the settings I would have suggested too. I really wish I had a Framemeister, so I could do a like for like here but I went the OSSC route. Ok, here's my point of view on your issue. The Jag2SNES is just a passthrough for Red, Green, Blue, Chroma and Luma to the SNES socket. It's as if you took a genuine Jag AV cable and connected it directly to your TV from the Jag. The Jag2SNES isn't doing any filtering to the those signals, which means you're getting all those signals exactly as your Jag is outputting it via traces on a PCB. For me that's the biggest telltale sign it's most likely not the adapter. It's also worth mentioning that S-Video doesn't use Sync, so it's not a sync related issue otherwise you'd see some kind of difference between RGB and S-Video.

 

I think it's the combination of your Jag, cables, and Framemeister that's causing the smearing. It's a bummer and I know that's probably not what you want to hear but ultimately that's what it sounds like. At the end of the day though you shouldn't be unhappy with something you've purchased. I'm sure Helder will happily take the adapter back and refund you even though I highly doubt it's the actual Jag2SNES that's causing the issue. In fact, if you do send it back, I'm going to have him mail it to me so I can put it through my gauntlet of testing.

Don't sweat it, I didn't post to complain - just trying to figure out what might be causing the smearing. There's a million different variables in these setups and I don't expect hobbyist products to work perfectly with all of them. The Jag2SNES wasn't very expensive and I like to support creators - I'm sure I can use it on a different setup down the line. I suppose I could open it up and take pictures to see if anything looks amiss.

 

I ordered one of those cheap SNES SCART cables to see if that makes any difference. If not, I'll try to find an official Jaguar SCART cable. I haven't tried to test it on a CRT yet as I don't really want to crawl behind the media center again and unhook everything. Worst case scenario I just live with the smearing, which isn't really that big of a deal, for the time being. It's only really noticeable on bright white text and the rest of the graphics look fine.

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9 hours ago, kynikos said:

Don't sweat it, I didn't post to complain - just trying to figure out what might be causing the smearing. There's a million different variables in these setups and I don't expect hobbyist products to work perfectly with all of them. The Jag2SNES wasn't very expensive and I like to support creators - I'm sure I can use it on a different setup down the line. I suppose I could open it up and take pictures to see if anything looks amiss.

 

I ordered one of those cheap SNES SCART cables to see if that makes any difference. If not, I'll try to find an official Jaguar SCART cable. I haven't tried to test it on a CRT yet as I don't really want to crawl behind the media center again and unhook everything. Worst case scenario I just live with the smearing, which isn't really that big of a deal, for the time being. It's only really noticeable on bright white text and the rest of the graphics look fine.

Good luck and post back if anything changes or if I can help in anyway. You can even send the adapter to me directly if you want me to look into it or DM me photos. I did all of the testing for this adapter for Helder. I'm happy to keep chewing on this for you directly. Also, let me know how the cheap SCART works out. I had to move SYNC off composite in mine to get a good picture out of it.

 

By the way, none of your posts came off like you were complaining. 

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On 5/18/2021 at 7:51 PM, Seedy1812 said:

Not sure if I bought this scart lead back in the day or it one I got from Atari

 

20210518_194302.thumb.jpg.316ac221e5116f76546b15014168dbfa.jpg

 

The switch is either on or off. I tried to open the end but its stubborn and won't move so I am not forcing it. When I was playing about with the ST I was using RGB Scart to get the best image out of it. I wonder if the switch of this cable is the composite / rgb switch for pin 16 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART )

 

Same as the Scart that came with my brother's Jaguar from Beatties in the UK

 

 

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