Any modern Hardware Clones for 2600?

[method72]

So I dusted off the old Vader unit, and got it working (had to order a new joystick, lost mine somewhere)

Popped in a few carts, and it's a fully functional unit still.   But I am sure it is going to die someday... (perhaps soon)

Are there any other options?  I know the Retron77 has been talked about.. but from what I read, that will not work with harmony/unocart and homebrews.

 

I know the NES has the modern AVS from RetroUSB, a full hardware remake.

Is there any Atari 2600 box like that?  Or do I have to just look on Ebay/Craigslist for another 40 year old unit?

 

 

[HammR25]

There aren't any modern consoles that accept Atari 2600 cartridges.  The closest you could get would be to find a Flashback 2 on eBay and modify it to accept cartridges.

[Voxel]

15 hours ago, method72 said:

Or do I have to just look on Ebay/Craigslist for another 40 year old unit?

Currently there is no new offering which gives the complete experience of the actual console.  I've just recently (since 2018), been getting back into the physical side of using the VCS 2600.  There are still plenty for sale.  You can opt for a cheaper VCS 2600 Jr as your daily driver and keep the Vader safe.

 

Thanks to CV19, prices are lower than usual, so there are some cheap deals about and you may want to pick up more than one to nip your fear.

 

Do also keep in mind that whilst a console can fail, that repair is also an option so please keep your console safe should that happen.  There is a small developing cottage industry in the retro gaming scene and assistance is available, it's also a patience game finding parts and getting the know how to do a repair.

[method72]

Awesome,  took your advice and just picked up a 2600 Jr fairly cheap on ebay,  now just need to hunt down a good deal on a 7800 and I think I will be in good shape.

 

I am pretty familiar with modern hobby level electronics, programed some Arduino stuff, and basic PIC projects, and designed some 2 layer PCB's myself and had them fabricated.

I get the basics of micro-controllers, but delving into the micro-processor, is a new leap I am taking, in an effort to try and make my own 2600 homebrews.

I have some general level C#, Python and a little C++ experience, so I get all the logic around programming,  although Assembly scares me a little bit, it's gonna take a while to get comfortable with it.

 

So what is the big challenge, why no one has built a modern day 2600 clone out of hardware?  Is it because the cost of a Raspberry Pi and emulation is dirt cheap?

And a full hardware solution just isn't worth the effort, since there is still a large amount of legacy hardware on the market, and reasonably priced?

 

It's weird because if you look at the 8bit NES community, it's thriving with new hardware,  like the Everdrive N8pro (FPGA designed),  which came out like only 2 years ago.

And the new AVS console by RetoUSB,  taking preorders, and scheduled to ship this summer, as a full NES hardware remake.

[Keatah]

According to modern internet lore and popular opinion, NES was when videogames were invented. The first. The best. The most. All that..

 

15 minutes ago, method72 said:

I am pretty familiar with modern hobby level electronics, programed some Arduino stuff, and basic PIC projects, and designed some 2 layer PCB's myself and had them fabricated.

With the old VCS consoles it's important to understand the basics of RF and interference, crosstalk, "vintage" style parts like discrete resistors/capacitors/transistors. And logic/timing levels on parts of that era. It's also helpful to have an understanding of how parts and materials age over time. And cleaning of contacts and switches - what works, what doesn't, and what breaks it. It's all easy stuff. Just different.

 

15 minutes ago, method72 said:

So what is the big challenge, why no one has built a modern day 2600 clone out of hardware?  Is it because the cost of a Raspberry Pi and emulation is dirt cheap?

And a full hardware solution just isn't worth the effort, since there is still a large amount of legacy hardware on the market, and reasonably priced?

It's a combination of all those factors, and more.

 

There've been a few FPGA recreations of the VCS in the hobby scene over the decades, but nothing approaching being consumer-ready. Mostly one-offs and in a totally impractical physical format having nothing to do with or looking like real VCS consoles. These have their own problems. First and foremost not being in a practical usable format. Different to the point of not physically accepting all carts. Novelty items. And the few that have been done don't get the switch activity right. They're push buttons instead of slide switches. And they don't support all controllers because of not using proper 3.3v - 5v translation buffers. Or they don't even output the necessary voltage to the DB9 connector itself. So.. yeh.. Color me unimpressed.

 

You could get a Flashback 2 and modify it.. But again, it's not something new and current. And you're looking at a repackage of a remake and repackage. Clumsy at best and not any different than other repackages/hacks of existing hardware. Disassembling a real console and just re-wiring & reformatting the guts into something different isn't that thrilling. And it's often limiting in unforeseen ways. Not fit for a consumer either.

 

There's a core on the MiSTer I believe. And the Phoenix keeps promising a core, too. But I don't know how that'd work with cartridges. And MiSTer isn't a turnkey consumer-ready product. So..

 

The Retron77 is a cartridge-reader & software emulator. It does not have the physical appeal of the original console and will NOT read then dump then emulate all but the most basic of cartridges. But it will play the latest ARM homebrews and everything that came before if you put the ROMs on an SD card. It's basically Emulator Stella running on cheap R-Pi class hardware. Its so cheaply made that they put metal weights to emulate heft and substance! Ha! But R77 should work straight out of the box. And it is a Harmony cart in and of itself by way of emulation. In other words you can put tons of games in it. Perhaps better because of the menu style and readability.

 

Carts were a thing of the 70's conjured up as a way (by Channel F engineers) to swap out the ROM program of a fixed function computer in a consumer-friendly way. Durable. Easy to manufacture. Nice to collect and display on shelves. But technically obsoleted by hi-capacity flash memory years ago.

 

R-Pi is dirt-cheap. That's one thing. And a bonus is you get billions of other systems too. An appealing all-in-one solution R-Pi is everywhere and everyone knows about it. You can buy turnkey R-Pi stuff on ebay. And I think gnu-atari has licensed some kits based around it.

 

I've been doing PC-based emulation since the mid-1990's and wouldn't have it any other way. Love the reliability, convenience, consistency, and versatility of a modern PC. And if the hardware ever goes belly-up, well, easy to replace. The nostalgia and familiarity of the emulation environment and emulated games themselves will remain unchanged.

 

15 minutes ago, method72 said:

It's weird because if you look at the 8bit NES community, it's thriving with new hardware,  like the Everdrive N8pro (FPGA designed),  which came out like only 2 years ago.

And the new AVS console by RetoUSB,  taking preorders, and scheduled to ship this summer, as a full NES hardware remake.

The NES has a huge (100x bigger) following and has more complex games. The VCS is more boring and niche in comparison. Even (unfortunately) looked down upon in various circles. The prevailing attitude is its time has come and gone. Stuck in the Pre-NES category before videogames were invented. Before anything worth playing existed. Snobbish, but fact.

[method72]

Wow thanks for the great write up Keatah.

I will admit, I do eventually want to work on a NES homebrew, but decided to tinker in the Atari 2600 space first.

Mostly just because I physically own a Vader unit and some carts already, but do not have an NES.

I feel that the NES is more complex anyways, dealing with actual sprites, pallets, mappers, more complex sounds, interrupts etc.   

 

I figure getting my feet wet in learning assembly is going to be something I need to do either way.  

So I might as well begin, where it really all began. with the 2600.  I do realize for many folks, home video games began on the NES.

But I think everyone in this community knows, and respects the truth of how wonderful the 2600 was and still is!

 

I really have a soft spot in my heart for Adventure... as that game amazed me for hundreds of hours as a child.

Specifically level 3, where the items were randomly placed, making each play through different and exciting every time. 

I would love to build something like that, or at least have a thorough understanding of the source code for that classic game.

Perhaps that's too ambitious, and If I can create a basic breakout clone, or shooter game, I will at least feel like I accomplished something.

 

I just started reading the Andrew Davie, Atari 2600 Programming for Newbies book, now,  (on section 2,  but did already read the 57 page Stella Programmers Guide)

Not sure how far these two documents can take me in my 2600 development journey.... but so far these seem to be the best/most recent and available documentation

for someone new to this hobby.

 

I do own a Flashback (not sure what revision it is, it's tossed in a box) as well as a Retron77.  I am sorta on the fence when it comes to the Retron77,

not really sure it was a good investment... and more of an impulse buy.  I ordered a Harmony and an Uno cart, so I can experiment with both.

I am all-in on wanting to dig deep into this homebrew space, I am sure with some time and practice I will get over my fear of coding with Assembly.

 

 

[Voxel]

20 hours ago, method72 said:

Awesome,  took your advice and just picked up a 2600 Jr fairly cheap on ebay,  now just need to hunt down a good deal on a 7800 and I think I will be in good shape.

Great news!

20 hours ago, method72 said:

So what is the big challenge, why no one has built a modern day 2600 clone out of hardware?  Is it because the cost of a Raspberry Pi and emulation is dirt cheap?

And a full hardware solution just isn't worth the effort, since there is still a large amount of legacy hardware on the market, and reasonably priced?

Pretty much covered by Keatah.  That the VCS 2600 was once cutting edge has been replaced by the memory of it being a low end consumer item and so the current offerings are precisely that.

 

The Noac (NES on a chip) has been used in VCS 2600 remakes, so if you get into coding the NES you can fix those ports.  It's ironic that Nintendo should look to Atari to sell the NES and decades later the NES is sold under the Atari banner as a Noac for their VCS 2600 remakes.

[qrysdonnell]

I don't know if I'd expect to see a commercial product, but it wouldn't be the worst if there was a person/group that had put together replacement PCBs for various 2600s. I've seen people talk about possibly designing replacement PCBs for 2600s and you'd just need working chips that you could socket in. Part of the problem there is the variety of form factors and differences in the boards (PAL, NTSC, 6 switch, 4 switch, jr) as well as the whole 'what to do about RF' problem.

 

I have a few 2600s that are imperfect (one of them stopped working as I was troubleshooting it, yay me!) and if I could easily just take the chips off and put them in a new board I would probably do that. As it is they're sitting around until I feel like teaching myself to 'really' learn how to repair these things.

[hizzy]

MisTer & roms. To be honest, I was only using my harmony cart anyway, so going to MisTer was no big deal. The 7800 core is excellent.

[BrianC]

2600 core on MiSTer is not bad for officially released games, but still doesn't support many of the later homebrews. I heard that 2600 support is being worked on and will be added to the 7800 core, but I'm not sure if support for the newer harmony/melody based carts will be added. Official 2600 controllers can be used with adapters. 2600daptor D9 is excellent and also works great with Stella (which is currently the best way to play 2600 games on modern hardware). Unfortunately, none of these methods accept carts, though Stella does support modern homebrews and has better compatibility than the current 2600 core on mister (7800 core is excellent, but it doesn't support 2600 games yet).  

Edited May 30, 2021 by BrianC
addition

[Keatah]

The original harmony cart won't run the absolute latest (in development now) game like Turbo Arcade. One of the two will need updating.

 

Only options to play it are Stella on PC or original console.

[method72]

Thanks for all the great info and getting me going!

 

Spent the past week or so setting everything up, getting hardware I needed ordered, connected, and development environment in place.

I have my 2600 Vader, Reton77,  Harmony Cart and Uno Cart and 2600-daptor in hand now all setup, tested and working.

Got Stella installed, and using Visual Studio Code, with the Atari development extension up and working.

Got my copy of the Stella Programmers guide and the 2600 Programming for Newbies book, and I'm off and running!

 

 

I haven't done much, and It's not much to look at so far, but I got  something compiled, and working, just a basic screen full of color (image attached)

 

I already have a simple game in mind, based off of an OLD flash game I made many years ago. (video attached)

It's a simple 1 screen, one button type of game, and thought it would make for a good first attempt at a 2600 title.

I realize the graphics won't look as nice, but the concept of a bouncing ball, that rolls across the screen when you press the button,

in an effort to try and pick up points from a ever changing array of value targets.  But don't miss and his the barriers or you lose one of your precious lives!

 

[Voxel]

Nice game, a bit like playing roulette, you could add bonuses like an extra life.

[method72]

Thanks...  that's was a really old, simple game I created in Flash, back when that was a thing, and I was learning it.

But I really never got into browser games...  made a half dozen or so,  sold some, had some others on a few portals.

Made a few cents a day on each game with Ads, but it was more a learning process.  ultimately I realized, I liked the flash dev platform,

but didn't care for the limitations, Flash/Action script/Browsers imposed.  Around that same time I started experimenting with XNA, and began learning

C#, and quickly realized I like that a lot more... although I never did get a game published on the Xbox platform.

 

Decided to put the cart (cartridge) before the hours on this project, (sorry for the bad pun)

Designed a 2mm acrylic laser cut enclosure, with 3D printed internals to support the internals for my own cartridge.

To save materials, it's quite a bit smaller than a normal 2600 cart, but it works/fits fine on my Vader and Jr,  I don't 

have a 7800, but I assume it would fit just as well into that console as well.  Don't mind the tape, lack of screws etc,  this is only a mockup cur from 

clear plexi, so I can see everything inside, while fine tuning the design.

 

I am just waiting on my blank PCBs to get delivered from the overseas fabricator, to do the final fittings.  I decided to go with the 8-bit classics 4k board, since the gerber files are CC and can be used for personal/commercial use.  For some odd reason, I just felt like I had to make my own enclosure for this project.  I was going to design my own PCB as well, but then came across the 8-bit classics, so that saved me a bunch of time.   I guess I need to start focusing on the Code now.

But to be honest,  my coding skills are superior to my CAD/PCB design/and 3D modeling skills used for the enclosure, so now that this part is just about done, its time to start working on the software side of things.

 

[christo930]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:38 PM, method72 said:

So I dusted off the old Vader unit, and got it working (had to order a new joystick, lost mine somewhere)

Popped in a few carts, and it's a fully functional unit still.   But I am sure it is going to die someday... (perhaps soon)

Are there any other options?  I know the Retron77 has been talked about.. but from what I read, that will not work with harmony/unocart and homebrews.

 

I know the NES has the modern AVS from RetroUSB, a full hardware remake.

Is there any Atari 2600 box like that?  Or do I have to just look on Ebay/Craigslist for another 40 year old unit?

 

 

 

I don't think we are at the point of having to worry about the custom chips failing.  Other electronic components in the machine are readily available and most likely will be for the foreseeable future.  I have had considerable more wear than my 2600!  The youngest 2600s are not even 30 years old yet.

I do wonder how long this plastic will hold up.  Luckily they don't get much exposure to the sun.  I have a few 7800s and one of them did experience a major shattering some years ago. Machine still works fine, but it has 1/2 of the bottom missing off it.

 

I would imagine an FPGA 2600 will eventually become available and if the chips start failing en mass, one assumes that would take a higher priority than it is right now.

[zzip]

On 5/23/2021 at 4:44 PM, Keatah said:

According to modern internet lore and popular opinion, NES was when videogames were invented. The first. The best. The most. All that..

I think modern internet lore goes something like this:

In the beginning Atari created Pong! 

Then they released E.T. which single-handedly destroyed the entire videogame industry until Nintendo rode into town and saved the day.

 

It's not that nothing happened before NES, but very little of note according to modern telling of events.