Harmony/Encore won't work with Turbo Arcade - needs update

[BIGHMW]

Champ Games has released their new demo of their newest homebrew, Turbo Arcade, but, with one catch, it only works with Retron 77 and Stella, it will not work with any of the major 2600 multicarts, including Harmony, Harmony Encore, and Concerto. 

 

So Fred @batari, with that breaking news, as announced by ZeroPage Homebrew the other night, when will there be a firmware update, I own a 2600 Jr. Short Rainbow version and a Harmony Encore and a Concerto for my 7800 that @CPUWIZ loaned me some $$$ to get (and have since paid him back) and really enjoy using them both.

 

 

Thanks!  

[+SpiceWare]

7 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

when will there be a firmware update

 

It's more involved than just updating the firmware, the CPU in the Harmony also needs to be replaced.

 

On 5/25/2021 at 7:30 PM, batari said:

Technically, existing Harmony or Harmony Encore carts can run this game with an upgraded CPU.

 

However, I am not offering CPU upgrades to Harmony/Harmony Encore at this moment, however, due to the fact that the upgraded CPU won't run current versions of Harmony firmware natively. Someday I might make changes to the firmware to support the upgraded CPU, just not today

 

[+batari]

Right now the game requires that upgraded CPU. However, John (the author) and I have talked about adapting it to work with a regular Harmony. I am planning to run some tests to see if it is even feasible. I don't know yet at this time.

[BIGHMW]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:55 PM, batari said:

Right now the game requires that upgraded CPU. However, John (the author) and I have talked about adapting it to work with a regular Harmony. I am planning to run some tests to see if it is even feasible. I don't know yet at this time.

Thanks Fred!  I'm glad you're aware of it and I am willing to either wait for the upgrade or obtain (if necessary) a new Harmony Encore once the upgraded CPU becomes available, we waited for Concerto, and it was well worth the wait (although I do apologize for my impatience during that wait, as I had obtained my mint 7800 knowing back in October that a multicart was just around the corner), so we're willing to wait around as long as it takes until both you and @johnnywc can come up with the perfect solution, because I am anxious to try out Turbo Arcade and give one of my now-famous reviews on her on The Atari Report real soon. We all anticipate the upgrade coming soon, thanks!

[CPUWIZ]

Why don't you just buy the game instead?  Seems easier.

[Greg2600]

I'm interested in his future potential cpu upgrade either way, as that could likely used more often in homebrew in years to come.

However, if batari can shoehorn it into his cart, that's terrific!  Either way folks, Champ Turbo is not going to be released until 2022, so there's plenty of time.

[ComputerSpaceFan]

And just to add another piece of hardware, the FlashBack X also doesn't run it.
Not much of a surprise but I thought I'd give it a shot.

[+DrVenkman]

2 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

Why don't you just buy the game instead?  Seems easier.

Yeah, I agree it's a solution to this particular problem.

 

However, more fundamentally, Champ Games is now selling ROMs for its released games directly via its website. Believe it or not, there are lots of folks who don't necessarily want to have hundreds of physical carts collecting dust on a shelf somewhere but still want to support game authors and publishers. So it would be great if Harmony or Harmony Encore owners could take advantage of flash carts they already own to play Champ's (legally purchased) ROMs.

 

On the other hand, if supporting newer homebrews like this turns out to be an Encore-only feature, or something only supported on newly-made carts, then it will be time for me to buy a new Harmony Encore Cart to replace my basic Harmony. And that's perfectly fair and reasonable too. 

[Greg2600]

15 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Yeah, I agree it's a solution to this particular problem.

 

However, more fundamentally, Champ Games is now selling ROMs for its released games directly via its website. Believe it or not, there are lots of folks who don't necessarily want to have hundreds of physical carts collecting dust on a shelf somewhere but still want to support game authors and publishers. So it would be great if Harmony or Harmony Encore owners could take advantage of flash carts they already own to play Champ's (legally purchased) ROMs.

 

On the other hand, if supporting newer homebrews like this turns out to be an Encore-only feature, or something only supported on newly-made carts, then it will be time for me to buy a new Harmony Encore Cart to replace my basic Harmony. And that's perfectly fair and reasonable too. 

Wasn't aware they were selling roms now.  If that's something Champ wishes to continue, then he kinda needs to make them work on the carts most everyone has.  BTW, the Encore won't run this game either, as is.

15 hours ago, ComputerSpaceFan said:

And just to add another piece of hardware, the FlashBack X also doesn't run it.
Not much of a surprise but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Well those didn't run Champ's previous games to begin with.

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, Greg2600 said:

Wasn't aware they were selling roms now.  If that's something Champ wishes to continue, then he kinda needs to make them work on the carts most everyone has.  BTW, the Encore won't run this game either, as is.

If Champ's games work on the original VCS, that's all that's required. As that is the gold standard. Other platforms that claim to be VCS compatible, claim to be remakes and implementations and recreations, software emulations, or FPGA work-alikes.. They have to adjust.. The onus is on them to be accurate and complete enough to handle what the original 1977 system does.

 

When emulating/recreating/simulating a new system, you have to consider all of the hardware. And that means the passive skeleton hardware in a cartridge, like the address lines, data lines, PCB wiring, additional logic gates, size of the ROM and how it behaves and how it is selected. And more, including active stuff like microprocessors. To an emulator/simulator the cartridge hardware is part of the main system. And a ROM contains none of that information. If the real-world hardware that the "game program" is hosted on changes, then the emulator/simulator must also change.

 

In this case, a new bankswitching scheme seems to be responsible for the incompatibility. When discussing Harmony/Melody/Encore, a different microprocessor is enough to warrant a new BS scheme. Different or new electronics in the cartridge, subtle or gross, requires the emulator/simulation to be aware of it all and updated to cover new hardware.

 

BS on all that?? Not so fast. All these new types of memory arrangements and ways of hooking that memory up to the console has given the console great versatility. Enough to make it to the 21st century.

 

[Keatah]

On 5/29/2021 at 10:27 AM, SpiceWare said:

It's more involved than just updating the firmware, the CPU in the Harmony also needs to be replaced.

Can you tell me what the new CPU is?

 

[+DrVenkman]

5 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Wasn't aware they were selling roms now. 

https://champ.games/store

 

5 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

If that's something Champ wishes to continue, then he kinda needs to make them work on the carts most everyone has. 

Agreed. The demos for these, plus all the rest here, all work fine on my basic Harmony. It's disappointing that Turbo Arcade doesn't. 

[+SpiceWare]

18 hours ago, Keatah said:

Can you tell me what the new CPU is?

 

I don't know specifics, just know that the original Harmony/Melody/Encore CPU has 32K of flash memory while the upgrade CPU has 128K.

 

The Encore has an extra 512K of RAM; but there is a major limitation in that the ARM lacks an external memory interface so that 512K cannot be used to run ARM code.

[+johnnywc]

22 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Wasn't aware they were selling roms now.  If that's something Champ wishes to continue, then he kinda needs to make them work on the carts most everyone has.  BTW, the Encore won't run this game either, as is.

 

Hello there!  

 

I think there is some confusion.  We mentioned on the ZPH twitch stream, on our website, in the ROM's readme, on our FB post and in the post above with the ROM link that as of now the game ONLY runs on Stella (including the community build on the RetroN 77).  As Fred mentioned, this is because Turbo Arcade needs the ARM and 64K to work (because of all of the graphics needed).  Zeviouz is another game that will require an upgraded Harmony/Harmony Encore to run so with that precedent set we decided to follow suit and utilize this new bankswitching scheme to allow us to develop a full-featured version of Turbo for the 2600.  There is currently no definite plan or timeline for this hardware upgrade/replacement (that is in Fred's hands) but as we mention above, Turbo Arcade isn't slated for release for almost a year so we feel confident that a solution will be in place by then, especially if Zeviouz is going to be released also.

 

The ROMs we sell in our store (Mappy, Galagon, and Wizard of Wor Arcade) all work with the Harmony and Harmony Encore and we don't have any intentions of selling the ROM for Turbo Arcade until the Harmony Encore can support it.  We released the early WIP ROM of Turbo Arcade with the disclaimer that it only works on Stella so people could give it a try, mostly so we can get feedback on the game long before it's scheduled to be completed.  If, for some reason, the Harmony Encore is not updated to support this game (or Zeviouz) and no reasonable alternative is provided, we will most likely just sell the game in cartridge form (like we have for most of our games over the last 15 years).  

 

Hope this clears things up. 

 

Have fun!

John

 

PS Our next 3 games (RobotWar: 2684, Gorf Arcade and Lady Bug Arcade, all scheduled for release in 2021) are all 32K and run on the Harmony and Harmony Encore, as well as Zoo Keeper (32K) so those ROMs will be added to our store eventually.    

[Greg2600]

3 hours ago, johnnywc said:

Hope this clears things up. 

YES it does!  ?