Wouldn't this be cool?

[rensoup]

Shouldn't it be PAL only ? NTSC provides no audible benefit.

 

and why extra RAM (you're planning on using samples Ivo ?) ?

[emkay]

9 minutes ago, rensoup said:

Shouldn't it be PAL only ? NTSC provides no audible benefit.

 

You should rethink about that. 

60Hz can be divided to half and quarter correct notes. 

60, 30, 15.

Also, FX like portamento, vibrato, arpeggio, ... and so on.

[ivop]

1 hour ago, rensoup said:

Shouldn't it be PAL only ? NTSC provides no audible benefit.

I'd say, leave it to the participant in the challenge 50Hz 5 frames per 16th note seems to be around the same speed as the original, but 60Hz 6 frames might work, too.

 

And 6, 3, 2, 1 are all dividers of 6. With 5, ehm, there are none other than 5 and 1. It's a prime number.

 

Quote

and why extra RAM (you're planning on using samples Ivo ?) ?

I am not, but perhaps somebody else? Xxl's sample tracker example works on a stock 64kB machine, but perhaps slightly more space would be needed for the Amiga guitar samples?

 

IMHO the rules should be something like everything is allowed as long as you don't cheat. More RAM is OK. Streaming 16GB of SD card space, not OK

 

 

Edit: BTW if the song's speed was 6 frames at 50Hz, NTSC would be at a disadvantage, but it seems this song might be better suited for 60Hz. My example rmt is not locked to 50Hz, as it uses very basic instruments. It could be converted to 60Hz.

 

And just for fun, I converted the .sid file to AtariSid 6s. Let's say it won't get any better. IMHO Paul Tonge did a pretty bad conversion

as6s-xenon.xex

Edited June 8, 2021 by ivop

[rensoup]

1 hour ago, emkay said:

You should rethink about that. 

60Hz can be divided to half and quarter correct notes. 

60, 30, 15.

Also, FX like portamento, vibrato, arpeggio, ... and so on.

maybe from a technical pov but can people hear it ?

 

The problem is always the same: 60hz can't be played back easily at 50hz 

[_The Doctor__]

people can hear it.

[emkay]

7 hours ago, rensoup said:

maybe from a technical pov but can people hear it ?

 

The problem is always the same: 60hz can't be played back easily at 50hz 

That's why Altirra has to be the replaying "device", or people have 50 Hz and 60 Hz machines at home. 

No "crossquirking" recommended.

 

Whether people can hear the difference , or not,  depends on the music creation, and if special short notes were useful to enhance the tune. 

 

 

 

[ivop]

Some more explanation of the RMT file patterns:

 

$00 -> drum (note the two different snares)

$01 -> bass

$02 -> theme 1 (4 bars, play twice for full theme)

$03 -> theme 2 (idem)

$04 -> theme 3a

$05 -> theme 3b

$06 -> theme 4a

$07 -> theme 4b

$08 -> theme 5 (4 bars, play twice for full theme)

$09 -> theme 6 (idem)

...

$11 -> drum and bass combined

 

Song: repeat drum and bass ad infinitum. Themes are played as follows:

(A): 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3
     ^     ^     ^     ^
(B): 4 5 6 6 4 5 6 6 4 5 6 6
     ^       ^       ^     

The song is in the key of D minor. Once the patterns align again, the whole song transposes to the key of E minor (play all notes two semitones higher). After that is finished, it transposes to the key of C minor (play all notes 2 semitones lower in regard to the original D minor key). Then loop the whole song. I did not do that in the example file. It's up to the participant to copy and transpose the patterns. The ST version does not transpose the drums. The Amiga version does. It plays all samples 200 cents faster, or 200 cents slower, including the drum samples.

 

The key of D minor are the same notes as the key of F major, but you start counting at a different note.

 

Key of F major: F G A Bb C D E F

Key of D minor: D E F G A Bb C D

 

All themes have their own instrument already in the RMT file, but they are mostly the same dull distortion A with a basic volume envelope. Some hints to improve the instruments:

 

Theme 3 chords are:

 

D minor: D F A

F major: F A C

A minor: A C E

C major: C E G

 

This is the Amiga guitar line. Each chord is played three times in different inversions. It starts with the first inversion (root note on top), then the second inversion (root note in the middle), and then the base chord (start with the root note).

 

Theme 2 and 5 are the same instrument type.

 

Theme 6 is the bubbly sound

 

Theme 4 is the increasingly bigger vibration and then slide up a little. I made it two patterns and two instruments. More like the C64 version, but you can add more instruments to slightly increase the vibrato depth, and use a portamento at the last note in pattern $07.

 

I really recommend watching this video that Wrathchild pointed us to earlier:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6I0ROSCWwA

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by ivop
typo, and tip on theme 4

[Wrathchild]

21 minutes ago, ivop said:

Once the patterns align again, the whole song transposes to the key of E minor (play all notes two semitones higher).
After that is finished, it transposes to the key of C minor (play all notes 2 semitones lower in regard to the original D minor key).

Not quite right and one of the reasons for choosing this particular tune, the shifts happen after the theme 1/2/3 melody ends, so this produces far more combinations until they all align again. One of the beauties of the tune.

So, speculating, when using a tracker editor that doesn't support a channel or global pitch mod you'll have to create patterns for each transposed version and align those appropriately. 

 

[ivop]

6 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

Not quite right and one of the reasons for choosing this particular tune, the shifts happen after the theme 1/2/3 melody ends, so this produces far more combinations until they all align again. One of the beauties of the tune.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. They align after after 12 times 8 equals 96 bars. Then they modulate to Em for 96 bars, and then to Cm for 96 bars.

6 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

So, speculating, when using a tracker editor that doesn't support a channel or global pitch mod you'll have to create patterns for each transposed version and align those appropriately.

That's what I meant by:

35 minutes ago, ivop said:

It's up to the participant to copy and transpose the patterns.

[emkay]

2 hours ago, Wrathchild said:

Not quite right and one of the reasons for choosing this particular tune, the shifts happen after the theme 1/2/3 melody ends, so this produces far more combinations until they all align again. One of the beauties of the tune.

So, speculating, when using a tracker editor that doesn't support a channel or global pitch mod you'll have to create patterns for each transposed version and align those appropriately. 

 

Feel free to edit the tune as you like. 

 

I'm still more in variations of sounds than of sound combinations. 

[emkay]

Btw.

 

You should have a closer look at Raster's edit of Delta.

[VinsCool]

8 hours ago, ivop said:

Some more explanation of the RMT file patterns:

 

$00 -> drum (note the two different snares)

$01 -> bass

$02 -> theme 1 (4 bars, play twice for full theme)

$03 -> theme 2 (idem)

$04 -> theme 3a

$05 -> theme 3b

$06 -> theme 4a

$07 -> theme 4b

$08 -> theme 5 (4 bars, play twice for full theme)

$09 -> theme 6 (idem)

...

$11 -> drum and bass combined

 

Song: repeat drum and bass ad infinitum. Themes are played as follows:

(A): 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3
     ^     ^     ^     ^
(B): 4 5 6 6 4 5 6 6 4 5 6 6
     ^       ^       ^     

The song is in the key of D minor. Once the patterns align again, the whole song transposes to the key of E minor (play all notes two semitones higher). After that is finished, it transposes to the key of C minor (play all notes 2 semitones lower in regard to the original D minor key). Then loop the whole song. I did not do that in the example file. It's up to the participant to copy and transpose the patterns. The ST version does not transpose the drums. The Amiga version does. It plays all samples 200 cents faster, or 200 cents slower, including the drum samples.

 

The key of D minor are the same notes as the key of F major, but you start counting at a different note.

 

Key of F major: F G A Bb C D E F

Key of D minor: D E F G A Bb C D

 

All themes have their own instrument already in the RMT file, but they are mostly the same dull distortion A with a basic volume envelope. Some hints to improve the instruments:

 

Theme 3 chords are:

 

D minor: D F A

F major: F A C

A minor: A C E

C major: C E G

 

This is the Amiga guitar line. Each chord is played three times in different inversions. It starts with the first inversion (root note on top), then the second inversion (root note in the middle), and then the base chord (start with the root note).

 

Theme 2 and 5 are the same instrument type.

 

Theme 6 is the bubbly sound

 

Theme 4 is the increasingly bigger vibration and then slide up a little. I made it two patterns and two instruments. More like the C64 version, but you can add more instruments to slightly increase the vibrato depth, and use a portamento at the last note in pattern $07.

 

I really recommend watching this video that Wrathchild pointed us to earlier:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6I0ROSCWwA

 

 

That's an excellent breakdown along with the already very good video.

I've actually come to the exact same conclusion before even watching the video, doing it by ear using the .dw file played back as individual channels, makes me pretty happy to see I was spot on before even finishing my version, which is literally just to transpose the sections and fix some instruments like the vibrato right now ?

 

[VinsCool]

There was an attempt ⭐

 

I'm halfway done now.
That one 3rd section had an extra phrase I didn't actually expect, so that makes even more combinations as a result before a full loop!
It goes like this: Key 1, 3 parts (4 patterns each), key 2, same as 1, key 3, 4 parts, then the loop continues as mentioned above.

I am not too happy of this one currently, the tuning is playing against me this time, lol

Xenon v8.xex

[ivop]

23 hours ago, ivop said:

They align after after 12 times 8 equals 96 bars.

This is still valid, but...

Quote

Then they modulate to Em for 96 bars, and then to Cm for 96 bars.

this is not.

 

The key changes are also sort-of polyrhythmic. Key changes are every 24 bars/measures, not every 96 bars as I said before. That was wrong Even though the alignment of group A and B has a four times lower period. The key changes do align with the group A melodies, because 24 can be divided by 3. But 4, 8 and 16 cannot

 

Edit: here's the ST version:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCNMufnJCuk

 

Here, within a theme, the instrument type is also varied. The first half, and the second half of a theme are not necessarily played with the same instrument.

Edited June 10, 2021 by ivop

[emkay]

For the records.

 

Ivop's edit is about 24 song steps.

 

So the tuning has to be "D" in the first 8 lines?

"E" in the second 8 lines?

"C" in the last 8 lines?

 

[ivop]

No, the key changes seem to follow group A (from the video). 3 themes times 8 bars equals 24 bars. And then a key change to +2 semitones and then to -2 relative to D minor.

 

Note how that's 6 song lines per key change!

 

(six patterns, times 4 bars per pattern, equals 24 bars)

 

 

 

[emkay]

19 minutes ago, ivop said:

No, the key changes seem to follow group A (from the video). 3 themes times 8 bars equals 24 bars. And then a key change to +2 semitones and then to -2 relative to D minor.

 

Note how that's 6 song lines per key change!

 

(six patterns, times 4 bars per pattern, equals 24 bars)

 

 

 

Hm...

 

The ST version "shows" this. There are clear "momentary" key changes , not really "step by step"  as it should be ?

I'm pretty sure, chiptune musicians did this by default, as the key changes remove the boring "always the same wave" sound.

 

 Using different sounds for the same instruments is also very often used by David Whittaker....

In this tune is it the high percussion. 

 

 

 

 

[emkay]

Right now I don't see the clue, about changing the arrangement, when POKEY can do such a broad variety of  sounds. 

 

I'd still propose to not pushing that "key arrangement"  stuff, and to focus on "in tune" music plus exceptional POKEY sounds. 

"Perfect" tuning is still a time consuming part, because the real "musician's tricks" cannot be applied , as the available software isn't sufficient.

 

[rensoup]

13 hours ago, VinsCool said:

I am not too happy of this one currently, the tuning is playing against me this time, lol

love it!

[emkay]

Till now, no other people seem to be interested in the challenge. 

So. Let's wait another week. 

If no one else wants to take part, we should shorten things and end the "Xenon challenge"  at the 19th of June (ofcourse in 2021  )

 

 

[Wrathchild]

That makes little sense? In the OP you gave 3 months which is presumably so they can tweak and perfect around other commitments. Now you give a week?

How does the number of entrants affect that, they have an amount of time at the end of which their submission is taken.

They can submit earlier if they consider they are done but that doesn't affect the others continuing.

Plus other can come in later and are naturally penalised in they have given themselves less time.

 

So I'd propose at least then end of July.  

[VinsCool]

End of July? I pretty much have all parts transcribed + transposed + some extras I added on my own  
I guess this cover is pretty much done now, but there's some things to improve still...

 50hz, stock PAL machine, that was all I needed for this one.

Xenon v12.xex

[emkay]

7 hours ago, Wrathchild said:

That makes little sense? In the OP you gave 3 months which is presumably so they can tweak and perfect around other commitments. Now you give a week?

How does the number of entrants affect that, they have an amount of time at the end of which their submission is taken.

They can submit earlier if they consider they are done but that doesn't affect the others continuing.

Plus other can come in later and are naturally penalised in they have given themselves less time.

 

So I'd propose at least then end of July.  

The Thread was about asking for interest. 

[rensoup]

17 hours ago, VinsCool said:

50hz, stock PAL machine, that was all I needed for this one.

You win ?

 

Seriously, I'm waiting for all other entries!

[emkay]

1 minute ago, rensoup said:

You win ?

 

Seriously, I'm waiting for all other entries!

There are officially just THE three people :  VinsCool, ivop, and some emkay guy. 

So I wonder about "all"