flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: Do you happen to have a machine also equipped with a Sophia 2 to test? Yes: a customer 65XE with U1MB/Sophia 2. None of the PoP images load properly on that machine. Flob works fine, however, as do other randomly selected cart images. I start to see a theme developing here. Since all the images work on my 600XL (U1MB/VBXE) and have been confirmed to work by other users, and since the loading process can be observed to work algorithmically in emulation, either there are complex timing issues going on, or some snowflake cartridge images. Most probably a bit of both, since two of the PoP images apparently failed to load properly such that the OS didn't see a cartridge at all, and one of them got stuck on a blue screen while trying to initialise. Edited July 20, 2021 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Yes: a customer 65XE with U1MB/Sophia 2. None of the PoP images load properly on that machine. Flob works fine, however, as do other randomly selected cart images. I start to see a theme developing here. Since all the images work on my 600XL (U1MB/VBXE) and have been confirmed to work by other users, and since the loading process can be observed to work algorithmically in emulation, either there are complex timing issues going on, or some snowflake cartridge images. @flashjazzcat Could you try turning off the PBI Bios on customer’s computer that has this issue to see if this workaround works there too? If it is a timing issue, I am wondering if it relates to the infamous gate chip I keep reading about. What was it, the 7408 that may need to be replaced? Edited July 20, 2021 by scorpio_ny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 50 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: Hi @flashjazzcat There is a difference in our setup. If recall correctly, @Mazzspeed and I are using Sophia 2’s in our setup. Do you happen to have a machine also equipped with a Sophia 2 to test? I have to say, as a tech I'm normally really good at diagnosis, but you're nailing this. Yes, I run a Sophia 2. As well as SIDE3 and U1MB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 25 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: Could you try turning off the PBI Bios on customer’s computer that has this issue to see if this workaround works there too? Already done, but it made no difference, and nor should it. 25 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: What was it, the 7408 that may need to be replaced? It was (replace 74LS08 with 74F08), but this machine already had that modification performed, IIRC. What happened is that the customer returned it about six weeks ago after experiencing random lock-ups and crashes, none of which I could reproduce after hour upon hour of testing. But here we see some stealthy issues finally rearing their heads (with PoP images, at least), and there is nothing obvious which can be done about them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Very interesting stuff, I was actually wondering if my Lotharek 64k upgrade could be causing the issue. @scorpio_ny, just to confirm, are you experiencing the issue on an 800XL or a 600XL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Yes, I run a Sophia 2. As well as SIDE3 and U1MB. Took the Sophia 2 out and it still doesn't load the PoP images. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Took the Sophia 2 out and it still doesn't load the PoP images. It's sounding like a timing issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 Well, much to the customer's surprise, no doubt, I'm going to ask him if I can hold on to this machine until we get to the bottom of the issue. It might even be a good candidate to send over to Poland so Candle can have a look at it (he already has one customer machine with timing issues that he's apparently been studying, but I don't know what's happening with that). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Well, much to the customer's surprise, no doubt, I'm going to ask him if I can hold on to this machine until we get to the bottom of the issue. It might even be a good candidate to send over to Poland so Candle can have a look at it (he already has one customer machine with timing issues that he's apparently been studying, but I don't know what's happening with that). Could that have been the issue the customer was complaining about in relation to crashing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Could that have been the issue the customer was complaining about in relation to crashing? It seems not; he was complaining of the firmware setup menu spontaneously blowing up. I have left the machine running all day with intermittent use and it has never crashed once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: It seems not; he was complaining of the firmware setup menu spontaneously blowing up. I have left the machine running all day with intermittent use and it has never crashed once. Ah, fair enough. One thing I noticed is that when I have the PBI BIOS disabled in order to load the CAR images, if I press L in the U1MB setup menu to bring up the SIDE loader it goes to the blue screen with the SIO pips like it's trying to boot something, then goes to BASIC. If I turn the machine off, hold L and turn it on the SIDE loader comes up fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: One thing I noticed is that when I have the PBI BIOS disabled in order to load the CAR images, if I press L in the U1MB setup menu to bring up the SIDE loader it goes to the blue screen with the SIO pips like it's trying to boot something, then goes to BASIC. If I turn the machine off, hold L and turn it on the SIDE loader comes up fine? Is this after actually mounting a cartridge? It's not something I can replicate at all, regardless. 'L' in the setup menu should bring up the SIDE3 loader 100 per cent of the time (unless 'Hard Emulation' was enabled prior to a cartridge mount, since this completely blocks all the SIDE3 control registers at $D5Fx, meaning software control is impossible until the cartridge reset button is pressed). I guess you also have some interesting bespoke issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 46 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Very interesting stuff, I was actually wondering if my Lotharek 64k upgrade could be causing the issue. @scorpio_ny, just to confirm, are you experiencing the issue on an 800XL or a 600XL? Mazzspeed, I am experiencing this issue on my NTSC 800XL (it has the Sophia 2). I have a NTSC 600XL upgraded to 64K with the UAV upgrade installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 28 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Is this after actually mounting a cartridge? It's not something I can replicate at all, regardless. 'L' in the setup menu should bring up the SIDE3 loader 100 per cent of the time (unless 'Hard Emulation' was enabled prior to a cartridge mount, since this completely blocks all the SIDE3 control registers at $D5Fx, meaning software control is impossible until the cartridge reset button is pressed). I guess you also have some interesting bespoke issues. Don't get me wrong, my experience up until the release of the latest round of CAR images has been absolutely faultless and I'm wrapped with my upgrades, TBH I'm glad it's not just me as I thought I was going mad. It's getting late here and I'm about to call it a night, I'll do some more testing regarding the loader and see what I can replicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said: Already done, but it made no difference, and nor should it. Hi @flashjazzcat, I am not sure if this is relevant. When I installed the U1MB, I used one of your videos. In the video (if I recall correctly), you used one of the lines from the PBI. Could this be a reason that that turning off the PBI BIOS would work? By the way, I want to say thank you very much for your hard work! I watched most of your videos and them inspiring and great a source of information. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Don't get me wrong, my experience up until the release of the latest round of CAR images has been absolutely faultless and I'm wrapped with my upgrades, TBH I'm glad it's not just me as I thought I was going mad. Not at all: I appreciate this. I've always had the attitude that if there's a bug I can fix, I'll fix it, but unfortunately there are some matters outside of my control, and before the exact source of a problem is figured out, people (sometimes quite reasonably) make the assumption there's a software problem. The firmware is hugely complex and I've had to learn how to be assertive about what is not wrong, as well as open-minded about those problems which could exist. Fortunately, I think we have moved past that especially arduous phase where the firmware was blamed for every problem under the sun because it was new and unfamiliar. The vast majority of those pat diagnoses proved unfounded; that's just a fact, and not an attempt to imply there were never any bugs (we know there are, since the changelog shows a huge list of fixes introduced with successive firmware releases). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: I am not sure if this is relevant. When I installed the U1MB, I used one of your videos. In the video (if I recall correctly), you used one of the lines from the PBI. Could this be a reason that that turning off the PBI BIOS would work? That's just a tapped signal. The actual source of the signal could conceivably become a factor if the machine was already balanced right on the edge of stability, I suppose, but it has nothing to do with enabling or disabling of the PBI BIOS, no. 4 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: By the way, I want to say thank you very much for your hard work! I watched most of your videos and them inspiring and great a source of information. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 21 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Don't get me wrong, my experience up until the release of the latest round of CAR images has been absolutely faultless and I'm wrapped with my upgrades, TBH I'm glad it's not just me as I thought I was going mad. @flashjazzcat I echo the same sentiment as @Mazzspeed It is just one of those things that pop up that are hard to track down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: It is just one of those things that pop up that are hard to track down. Tell me about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 hours ago, scorpio_ny said: No issue with power supply. New 3 Amp. So "New" = good ? or "3A" is good ? Loads of crappy switching PSU's around that can screw things up by introducing high frequency noise etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said: It seems not; he was complaining of the firmware setup menu spontaneously blowing up. I have left the machine running all day with intermittent use and it has never crashed once. All of these symptoms would make me think of external trouble. Maybe his net power is extremely noisy (solar panels ?) or he's using a bad quality switching PSU (are you using his PSU Jon ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 I think Mazzspeed and Scorpio_NY are both using modern-day switching PSU's. I'd love to see them try real Atari conventional PSUs instead. At least to rule something out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Level42 said: All of these symptoms would make me think of external trouble. Maybe his net power is extremely noisy (solar panels ?) or he's using a bad quality switching PSU (are you using his PSU Jon ?) The owner said he had been using the machine 'balanced on the edge of the desk', so I made a video of the system running, out of the case and with SIDE3 plugged into the back, with the motherboard being flexed and dropped onto the anti-static mat. We discussed PSUs as well; I think he said he was using a Lotharek 3A switch-mode device, which is exactly what I am using (I learned to stop using the 5.25V Cisco PSU in case over-voltage masked problems at 5V on customer machines). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 26 minutes ago, Level42 said: So "New" = good ? or "3A" is good ? Loads of crappy switching PSU's around that can screw things up by introducing high frequency noise etc. @Level42 Very true. The power supply is one that I made myself from the plug of one of the “bad” Atari power supplies and the power supply that was used for an IP phone. Brand new out of the box. I tested the voltage with a meter to ensure it had the proper voltage before and after I put the plug on it. The power supply is rated for 5v and 3 AMPs. As for the old power supplies, don’t they max out at 1.5 Amps? With the added hardware and cartridge use, wouldn’t a higher rated power supply be more desirable? There was a big thread on this topic if I recall and it showed that the 800XL on use can reach close to 1.5 AMPs depending on what is being done and attached to the host computer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) Correct, the modern day Atari with all the goodies in it needs 2.5 - 3 amp CLEAN power... noisy switching supplies do indeed futz up the video on some machines and cause random glitches in others... some know good modern power supplies get updated over time and then buying the same make and model doesn't pan out as the spec change but the name and model do not. It's a real P.I.T.A. Many people are fine with 1.5 amp supplies but a fully loaded machine with memory upgrades, cartridge beasts, video updates, and upgrade boards etc etc... it all add up, include a cassette deck, sio2sd, etc etc... maybe a sio powered modem, P:R: or fujinet etc etc, and you are using quite a bit of juice. It is best not to run power supplies at 100 percent of their rated values for sure! as an aside, I've still found re programming and re-flashing the devices a couple of times helps... I am not sure if the stuff is marginal or if someone statically zaps some of this stuff during install or use... but it's a happening in the u1m/incognito world/cart world that's been encountered a number of times. Who knows... cosmic rays... stray emf... static... timing glitch... barely in spec chip who knows... just one of those things... redo from the ground up and it's all good.... odd that PBI on is causing an issue with POP etc... has the footprint changed/does timing change? As both of you see the same thing it sure seems to be a good thing to investigate. Edited July 20, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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