Why is Modding the system such a big problem? PC players do it

[Frozone212]

I get that Microsoft and Sony need to protect their image but it's unfair when you release a game in a buggy state (Cyberpunk 2077 AFAIK) or refuse to fix it anymore (COD WWII) and yet there are numerous fixes for the PC version. How hard is it for you to release a mod pack or something that lets us fix it ourselves. Activision and EA are too lazy to fix their own games so let US fix it instead. Why should the PC people get all the good stuff? PC players get:

*the ability to mod their games

*the games are prettier on PC and in most cases, control better

* Crossplay with a pc player is suicide, they're simply too fast

* Have access to other games that we never got on console (Sam and Max hit the road, Doom II, Thief series etc)

 

plus the manufacturer never goes after them for modifying their system. Why the double standard?

 

We get nothing. Worse than nothing, if we attempt to mod our consoles, we get punished? The Xbox one S is effectively a Win 10 pc in console form and your response is to block someone for doing so. You forget Microsoft, not all of us have $600 and a proper desk. Modding the S to work as a PC would be sweet. No need to pay for a license. I support open source software and the right to Piracy (as long as the game is out of print/Company is no longer with us). If you aren't making money off of the software or the hardware in any way resembles a PC (Xbox is effectively Windows 10 in all but name) then it is by definition, a PC and thus, not a console. Literally, add a monitor, modify the hardware to run the win 10 BIOS, add a desktop and bingo. I see no problem with it. I see an issue with forcing compliance and subverting free choice through punishment. You gave us a console that is technologically similar to a PC. We will do what we see fit with it, damn the consequences.

You want to throw us in Jail? For what? If you didn't want us to modify the console hardware, then you should've not released anything.

(Piracy was rampant in the 80's and despite best efforts, pirates faced no punishment, the TI-99/4A was inherently expandable which bought no issues and yet we try to modify the Xbox or PS4/5? Stop the presses and call the FBI!).

 

Stupid, just plain stupid.

 

So why can't we mod our consoles and games? I mean, if the warranty is gone, it's not an issue! Why do we need Documentation?

 

 well, for one it would help those of us that otherwise would need to do it with help from the internet. There's no way to be absolutely sure that one method will work over the other and in most cases, it will outright destroy the console if something gets broken.

 

As consoles get more and more powerful, it makes sense to give us some way to extend the replay value of our games. I mean, in the 80's they released the Game Genie for NES and Nintendo lost that suit. In a sense, it was modding the nes in it's purest form: Adding new stuff not meant for the game itself (cheats etc). We're not redesigning the hardware here: We're fixing your (developers) mistakes because you are too damn lazy and (in some cases), converting the Xbox into a free PC.

 

I don't see the issue here. Guys?

 

Ideas for Series X/S:

 

Allow for fixes to be downloaded off the internet (fixes, new levels etc)

If a game is fully downloaded offline, don't make us install an update online

In the case of the S (not series S), give us a devkit and documentation and take our feedback into account

Edited June 11, 2021 by Frozone212
typo, additional info

[Steven Pendleton]

Behold the glory of PC. I have absolutely no desire to use consoles for anything that gets released on PC unless it's something that has literally no difference between Switch handheld mode and PC aside from resolution, I want a physical copy for whatever reason (and I still occasionally do get physical PC games/the PC versions of games that I own physical copies of for console), or the rare event in which there is a console version of a game that happens to be superior to the PC version, which does actually happen on occasion (some of Prototype's PC -> console visual novel ports are better than the PC versions in every way).

 

My PS4 is mostly a BD player for watching Star Trek. That's the only thing that it does better than my PC because Microsoft decided that they didn't want to pay some sort of fees to make most BDs work properly. I have been using my PS4 to actually play games on occasion recently, though, but I've pretty much given up on most modern games at this point anyway.

[Tanooki]

Blaming console companies for pulling the classic guarding their business and business model setup of their consoles... were you born yesterday?

 

Don't blame the PC, envy it sure, but don't blame it.  No one entity controls 'the PC' and anyone can release whatever they wish to it on whatever OS they might care to support as well, and parts, lots, all sorts of choices, that's why you get all those complaints you're making.  The up said to all that mass of choices and problems they have on their own, you're not stuck.  THere is no PC guy that is like 'hey, time to upgrade' and your stuff is stuck and doesn't work, that's consoles for better or worse.  Worse these days since the last gen for Sony and a few for MS basically have been DRM locked out of date(to stay in budget) PCs.  Worst of both worlds there, you get a locked down gimped PC game that for a console is mind blowing and reviews of praise hit as they should, but that PC there, it can run the stuff too that isn't first party(for Sony) and better, because it's not constrained under a budget.

 

The console makers will NOT give you that control, they need it, it stops piracy in their minds(and it does largely), and other things too that work in their favor including their own online stores.  If they gave the keys to the jail, you'd have all sorts of hell unleashed... viruses, malicious hacks, warez like mad, there's NO up side at all for them to give you your wishes.  Perhaps maturely, they could do it AFTER they finish releasing every last physical title for a generation, that would be nice, but when it's active and would cannibalize their own sales...hell no.

[Tanooki]

1 hour ago, Steven Pendleton said:

My PS4 is mostly a BD player for watching Star Trek. That's the only thing that it does better than my PC because Microsoft decided that they didn't want to pay some sort of fees to make most BDs work properly. I have been using my PS4 to actually play games on occasion recently, though, but I've pretty much given up on most modern games at this point anyway.

Cyberlink Power DVD(Blu Ray) Pro very often goes on sale for at least 50% or more off.  When they did their last big sale I bit, hell of a player far superior to what the pS4 did as I was doing much as you were before I got fed up with it wasting space.  MS is pretty disgusting and cheap for not allowing movies to work off the system by default and the 'store' choices they give are AWFUL.

[Steven Pendleton]

14 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Cyberlink Power DVD(Blu Ray) Pro very often goes on sale for at least 50% or more off.  When they did their last big sale I bit, hell of a player far superior to what the pS4 did as I was doing much as you were before I got fed up with it wasting space.  MS is pretty disgusting and cheap for not allowing movies to work off the system by default and the 'store' choices they give are AWFUL.

I may have to look into that. The PS4 is definitely not great as a BD player. It works, but there are better options. I tried for a while to get VLC to play BDs and sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. I think my TOS BD mostly work, but sometimes they don't. The TNG ones basically don't work at all in VLC from what I remember.

[Tanooki]

@Steven Pendleton I'd suggest it.  I did what you did and I basically got fed up watching blu rays and as soon as I had come across a slick cheap find of a PS3 super slim, it went straight up on ebay as the PS4 was such a let down, even with movies they made it some weird chore.  I paid around $60 for it, but that's because I paid a small fee and shipping for an actual install disc to keep, normally the program costs $100.  I'd watch for sales as it does so much stuff beyond just movies it's very worth it.

 

I did VLC too and the blu-ray wankers kept screwing with the keys and it was like a monthly battle on some discs to keep them working, and others never would, like the Trek ones (kelvin movies and TNG/ToS movie box sets) and it just was the final blow being that put off it.

[Steven Pendleton]

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

@Steven Pendleton I'd suggest it.  I did what you did and I basically got fed up watching blu rays and as soon as I had come across a slick cheap find of a PS3 super slim, it went straight up on ebay as the PS4 was such a let down, even with movies they made it some weird chore.  I paid around $60 for it, but that's because I paid a small fee and shipping for an actual install disc to keep, normally the program costs $100.  I'd watch for sales as it does so much stuff beyond just movies it's very worth it.

 

I did VLC too and the blu-ray wankers kept screwing with the keys and it was like a monthly battle on some discs to keep them working, and others never would, like the Trek ones (kelvin movies and TNG/ToS movie box sets) and it just was the final blow being that put off it.

I recently acquired a Japanese 60GB PS3, so I can use that, as well, as I need to repair my US 60GB PS3, as the fan is quite loud and I worry about it overheating. I really should rescue my US PS2 save files from it just in case, now that I think about it. My Japanese PS3 is fine, though.

[Tanooki]

Ahh yeah good plans there.  That's one thing I will never understand what crap SONY was smoking that day.  The day they designed the blu ray playing on PS4, everything is worse about it, right down to them not even bothering with a proper remote for it up front like the excellent one PS3 has, didn't even let that roll over either.  THing is I technically still have a PS3, my original from back when circuit city folded and I finally bought in on discount.  It has been a dedicated movie/streaming player for years now on the main tv.  Streaming isn't updated anymore, fire stick took over, but it still plays movie discs fantastically.

[TheGameCollector]

Nobody is going to go after you for modding your own console. They will go after people who are trying to do full scale modding services for other people for profit when the console is current generation though.

 

I highly doubt they would try to shut down OG Xbox and Xbox 360 modders ever again at this point for example. Xbox One modding probably would still be frowned upon by them because they still have one foot in that generation as long as they keep releasing games that are still compatible with it.

 

If you're in Japan I guess it's a bit trickier because they outright ban it over there, but not in the USA. Not the average user or buyer. If you can manage to buy a pre-modded console on ebay before their listing gets pulled, you get a nice system with stuff already installed.

Edited December 2, 2021 by TheGameCollector

[bluejay]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:52 AM, Frozone212 said:

Allow for fixes to be downloaded off the internet (fixes, new levels etc)

This has existed for many years. Ever heard of updates? Patches? DLC?

On 6/11/2021 at 10:52 AM, Frozone212 said:

If a game is fully downloaded offline, don't make us install an update online

Downloaded offline? Is there some magical way to download files without being connected to the internet? Also: this statement directly contradicts your previous one. Do you want updates or not?

On 6/11/2021 at 10:52 AM, Frozone212 said:

In the case of the S (not series S), give us a devkit and documentation and take our feedback into account

Fun fact: Companies don’t like giving away stuff that they spent many many dollars and years developing, or other companies stealing their technology. Who is this “us” that they are giving away devkits to anyways?

[Frozone212]

this thread is old. please don't necro

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

4 hours ago, Frozone212 said:

this thread is old. please don't necro

So? You make it sound like it is years old ?, if responding from a thread that's 6 months old is a problem for you prepare for a hard time here. ? Sometimes people don't notice a thread or did not feel compelled to contribute at the time but it's a public forum with thousands of members and you will get this occasionally. While YOU may no longer be interested in responses sometimes these things take on interest for others or go in a different direction. Yes it can be annoying seeing a thread get bumped when it's from like 2010 but this is nothing and not out of the ordinary around here, others will respond and you are free to ignore or unfollow it ?‍♂️

Edited December 2, 2021 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[bluejay]

5 hours ago, Frozone212 said:

this thread is old. please don't necro

…that isn’t how it works. Old threads are revived all the time. We don’t like necrobumped for sale threads because, well, they’re time sensitive. Discussion threads are not. As long as it’s on topic (which it is) there’s no problem with bumping an old discussion. Like OSRG said, if you don’t like it, feel free to ignore this thread and move along. 

[jerseystyle]

On 6/10/2021 at 6:52 PM, Frozone212 said:

I get that Microsoft and Sony need to protect their image but it's unfair when you release a game in a buggy state (Cyberpunk 2077 AFAIK) or refuse to fix it anymore (COD WWII) and yet there are numerous fixes for the PC version. How hard is it for you to release a mod pack or something that lets us fix it ourselves. Activision and EA are too lazy to fix their own games so let US fix it instead. Why should the PC people get all the good stuff? PC players get:

*the ability to mod their games

*the games are prettier on PC and in most cases, control better

* Crossplay with a pc player is suicide, they're simply too fast

* Have access to other games that we never got on console (Sam and Max hit the road, Doom II, Thief series etc)

 

plus the manufacturer never goes after them for modifying their system. Why the double standard?

 

We get nothing. Worse than nothing, if we attempt to mod our consoles, we get punished? The Xbox one S is effectively a Win 10 pc in console form and your response is to block someone for doing so. You forget Microsoft, not all of us have $600 and a proper desk. Modding the S to work as a PC would be sweet. No need to pay for a license. I support open source software and the right to Piracy (as long as the game is out of print/Company is no longer with us). If you aren't making money off of the software or the hardware in any way resembles a PC (Xbox is effectively Windows 10 in all but name) then it is by definition, a PC and thus, not a console. Literally, add a monitor, modify the hardware to run the win 10 BIOS, add a desktop and bingo. I see no problem with it. I see an issue with forcing compliance and subverting free choice through punishment. You gave us a console that is technologically similar to a PC. We will do what we see fit with it, damn the consequences.

You want to throw us in Jail? For what? If you didn't want us to modify the console hardware, then you should've not released anything.

(Piracy was rampant in the 80's and despite best efforts, pirates faced no punishment, the TI-99/4A was inherently expandable which bought no issues and yet we try to modify the Xbox or PS4/5? Stop the presses and call the FBI!).

 

Stupid, just plain stupid.

 

So why can't we mod our consoles and games? I mean, if the warranty is gone, it's not an issue! Why do we need Documentation?

 

 well, for one it would help those of us that otherwise would need to do it with help from the internet. There's no way to be absolutely sure that one method will work over the other and in most cases, it will outright destroy the console if something gets broken.

 

As consoles get more and more powerful, it makes sense to give us some way to extend the replay value of our games. I mean, in the 80's they released the Game Genie for NES and Nintendo lost that suit. In a sense, it was modding the nes in it's purest form: Adding new stuff not meant for the game itself (cheats etc). We're not redesigning the hardware here: We're fixing your (developers) mistakes because you are too damn lazy and (in some cases), converting the Xbox into a free PC.

 

I don't see the issue here. Guys?

 

Ideas for Series X/S:

 

Allow for fixes to be downloaded off the internet (fixes, new levels etc)

If a game is fully downloaded offline, don't make us install an update online

In the case of the S (not series S), give us a devkit and documentation and take our feedback into account

Sir, this is a Wendy’s.

[CapitanClassic]

The OP seems to be mixing many incongruent concepts.

 

PC owners can modify their systems, console owners cannot.

Console owners can modify their systems, but many manufacturers want to lockout those systems from their online ecosystems. This is an attempt to counter piracy. PC’s (MS operations systems?) don’t do this supposedly, although there have been attempts in the past.

 

I support open source software and the right to Piracy(as long as the game is out of print/Company is no longer with us)

Open source software is great, but is difficult to monetize. ?

There isn’t a right to piracy, but some of the laws regarding copyright are overly draconian. I wish more companies would do a better job of software preservation , and would open their software to the public domain (like Id with Doom, (no *.wad)). When a company isn’t selling a game it may not be morally wrong to pirate it. The only people being harmed are likely the used game sellers. With more games going digital, there is likely less piracy, and no used game resales. One of the bad thing with all these digital games is that you don’t really own them, only a license to use them. When the servers go down, you won’t own anything.

 

You gave us a console that is technologically similar to a PC. We will do what we see fit with it
You technically can modify whatever you own in the USA. This sounds like right to repair, Louis Rossmann being one of the bigger proponents, which there has been a big push to enact legislation to force companies to provide service manuals, parts, and comply with other FTC legislation that many companies aren’t even following currently. It might be illegal to publish information regarding jail-breaking/modding your system. The Library of Congress (DMCA exemptions) makes that decision every 3 years.

 

I mean, in the 80's they released the Game Genie for NES and Nintendo lost that suit. In a sense, it was modding the nes in it's purest form: Adding new stuff not meant for the game itself (cheats etc). We're not redesigning the hardware here: We're fixing your (developers) mistakes

Nintendo vs Galoob was about derivative works, so not sure what is being argued here. You are entitled to modify your copy of Cyberpunk however you see fit, the developers are under no obligation to provide source code or allow your client software on their servers. One of the biggest issues with online FPS games are hackers who alter game code to see through walls, run fast, shoot perfect, etc. If we want to prevent cheating, companies need to be able to ban users with modified software.

 

Some nonsense about consoles being PCs and PCs get all the good stuff.

Developers who make games for consoles have less testing to do, because they have limited hardware differences to test against. Games can look better with a better PC graphics card, but most developers look towards the middle performance systems.  They do have to pay a premium though, to the console manufacturer. This is really no different than paying 20% - 30% to the digital marketplace sellers for hosting/processing the game sales (Apple, Epic, Steam, etc).

As far as access to games, console/PC exclusives are likely to be a thing of the past. The only developers who would want to do that are trying to get you to buy their hardware.

[Razzie.P]

17 hours ago, bluejay said:

Downloaded offline? Is there some magical way to download files without being connected to the internet?

That's actually an interesting concept, to me.  Around the mid 90's, when I first got into PC, I'd pick up a lot of lame CD software bundles that I happen to see on the cheap.  The instructions would often read "download the contents from CD to your hard drive," no internet needed (or even available)

 

I wonder if that term still applies to copying files offline?  I guess it should... I dunno... sure seems odd, though.

[CapitanClassic]

1 hour ago, Razzie.P said:

That's actually an interesting concept, to me.  Around the mid 90's, when I first got into PC, I'd pick up a lot of lame CD software bundles that I happen to see on the cheap.  The instructions would often read "download the contents from CD to your hard drive," no internet needed (or even available)

 

I wonder if that term still applies to copying files offline?  I guess it should... I dunno... sure seems odd, though.

Well, copying from CD or other physical media to your computers harddrive isn't really downloading.

Quote

copy (data) from one computer system to another, typically over the internet.

You could download via a Local Area Network (LAN), but then you are still online.

Quote

controlled by or connected to another computer or to a network.

 

[TheGameCollector]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:55 PM, CapitanClassic said:

With more games going digital, there is likely less piracy, and no used game resales. One of the bad thing with all these digital games is that you don’t really own them, only a license to use them. When the servers go down, you won’t own anything.

 

 

Very far from the truth. PC titles including Steam titles are often the first ones cracked and more easily pirated than console games. Some even on release day. The only way they don't get cracked is if they require a persistent online connection and even then sometimes people will set up an alternate server for cracked versions. I think they did this for the Diablo II Resurrected. The alternate way was emulating the Switch version. Which in turn was also a digital only Switch title yet somehow they copied it and got it going.

 

It may not be as easy to do but the software preservation is always happening underground.

[zzip]

I believe it's due to a bunch of legal issues.   Mods increase the risk of jailbreaking the hardware, exposing intellectual property, possibly exposing other users private information and enabling multiplayer cheats and piracy.

 

Personally I have a PC and console.   There aren't that many games that I have a desire to mod, but those I do I will get on PC.  Most other games I will get on console because it's a more comfortable gaming experience

[crade]

It's not just legal issues.  These limitations are literally the only thing that separates consoles from PCs.

The modern xbox and psx are just PCs with some special limitations on them so that you have a consistent platform for devs and gamers

so it can be controlled.  That way you can lock games to that particular platform, you can control for cheaters, pirates, whatever.

 

If you let people mod it, then there wouldn't be any difference anymore, as a developer you wouldn't be able to rely on any of the things that make a psx a psx anymore, you wouldn't be able to know for sure that if X changes, they can be considered a cheater and blocked, or that if Y exists they are a legit psx and can play demon souls.. 

 

Letting people mod consoles takes away what makes them consoles and not PCs.

 

Edit:  I mean, look what happened when they decided to stop blocking people from installing custom software on the PS3, the military put them in racks and made a clustered supercomputer out of them

Edited January 21, 2022 by crade
additional followup only

[Atariboy]

I'll never understand why posting a pertinent post in an idle thread is a sin at some forums, but I'm grateful AtariAge doesn't go in for such silliness.