XEP80-II a new beginning

[+mytek]

23 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

On 7/22/2021 at 2:06 PM, massiverobot said:

i always wanted an XL style PSU but never found one. So pretty.

 

Me too, I'd prefer the XL off-white colored one, but I'd take the black one too and just paint it to match the XL off-white. But I have a 1200XL that still uses the "Universal" PSU that works with the 800,810,1050 and more,

Wow not only off topic, but a response to a post that is nearly a month old . Just yanking your tail @Gunstar

 

Speaking of Atari PSUs, I have two of those cream color XL ones. I always liked those. Opps now I'm off topic as well

 

-----------------

 

Getting back to the subject at hand...

 

I tested my latest NTSC display timing parameters on a couple of LCD monitors via their composite input, and as I suspected some of the top and bottom lines of text get cut-off. No problem since Avery's parameters can still be used by either burning that into the ROM, or even by loading them separately with the VHOLD program. But since my aim is to go with HDMI, it's nice to know that I can correct the NTSC descender issue in that mode of operation.

 

[Gunstar]

On 6/24/2021 at 8:00 PM, DrVenkman said:

For real - VBXE is awesome and if only it didn't require a 15.7kHz-compatible monitor,

 

 

I've been using RGB2VGA scaler/converters for about 15 years with my 15.7kHz RGB devices that goes out to cheap Walmart LCD TV's. It works great, no special monitor required. Maybe the VBXE should be packaged together with an inexpensive converter since VGA inputs is still common on most HD TV's and even old VGA CRT monitors can be had for cheap.

[+mytek]

2 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I've been using RGB2VGA scaler/converters for about 15 years with my 15.7kHz RGB devices that goes out to cheap Walmart LCD TV's. It works great, no special monitor required. Maybe the VBXE should be packaged together with an inexpensive converter since VGA inputs is still common on most HD TV's and even old VGA CRT monitors can be had for cheap.

Was I dreaming, or was there an alternative core for the VBXE that did VGA output?  If so that would be even better, and eliminate the need for a converter - just need to wire up a high-density 15 pin VGA connector.

[+DrVenkman]

29 minutes ago, mytek said:

Was I dreaming, or was there an alternative core for the VBXE that did VGA output?  If so that would be even better, and eliminate the need for a converter - just need to wire up a high-density 15 pin VGA connector.

There is but ... it still requires a 15khz compatible monitor, which most are not. That's probably why no one uses that core, for the most part. 

[Mazzspeed]

28 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

There is but ... it still requires a 15khz compatible monitor, which most are not. That's probably why no one uses that core, for the most part. 

The old XEP-80 with it's luma out can be just as tricky regarding modern LCD monitors, which is why this design is so exciting - It has the ability to make use of a cheap scaler/convertor that actually looks like it produces the best results I've seen from an XEP-80 to date.

[Gunstar]

The thing is, when converting video or S-video the converters can be hit-or miss in how well they work, as well as the quality of the video input. But with a clean RGB signal to use, you don't have to worry about paying to get quality converters for a good picture like you do with video/S-video. Cheap $10-30 Chinese  RGB2VGA converters can do the job pretty well. Lotharek could by a few cheap converters and find one that works good offer them for sale on his site as an extra option to go with the VBXE. if not in one package deal (as of course not everyone needs or wants one, but I think most prospective VBXE buyers would).

 

The one I use is a $75 dollar RGB2VGA, but that was 15 years ago and today one that works just as well (which is a crisp clean image with vibrant color) could be had for much, much less. I haven't tried any RGB2HDMI converters but I imagine you could get one of them cheap too that would work well converting a 15khz signal as well. Both types could be in Lotharek's shop.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Gunstar

[Mazzspeed]

2 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

The thing is, when converting video or S-video the converters can be hit-or miss in how well they work, as well as the quality of the video input. But with a clean RGB signal to use, you don't have to worry about paying to get high-end converters for a good picture like you do with video/S-video. Cheap $10-30 Chinese  RGB2VGA converters do the job pretty well. Lotharek could by a few cheap converters and find one that works good and even just offer them for sale on his site as an extra option to go with the VBXE. if not in one package deal (as of course not everyone needs or wants one, but I think most prospective VBXE buyers would.

 

The one I use is a $75 dollar RGB2VGA, but that was 15 years ago and today one that works just as well (which is a crisp clean image with vibrant color) could be had for much, much less. I haven't tried any RGB2HDMI converters but I imagine you could get one of them cheap too that would work well converting a 15khz signal as well. Both types could be in Lotharek's shop.

I've got a cheap convertor here that I tried to use on two separate retro machines using separate chrome/luma (svideo) - It's absolutely hopeless, the resulting output is essentially far from usable. At least mytek has designed his device around a specific affordable convertor, so you know it's suitable for the job before wasting even $25.00 on a device only to find it's hopeless.

[Gunstar]

2 hours ago, mytek said:

Wow not only off topic, but a response to a post that is nearly a month old . Just yanking your tail @Gunstar

 

Speaking of Atari PSUs, I have two of those cream color XL ones. I always liked those. Opps now I'm off topic as well

 

-----------------

 

Getting back to the subject at hand...

 

I tested my latest NTSC display timing parameters on a couple of LCD monitors via their composite input, and as I suspected some of the top and bottom lines of text get cut-off. No problem since Avery's parameters can still be used by either burning that into the ROM, or even by loading them separately with the VHOLD program. But since my aim is to go with HDMI, it's nice to know that I can correct the NTSC descender issue in that mode of operation.

 

Yeah, my bad. The thing is I hadn't bothered to look in on this thread because I figured correctly that the XEP80 II was the XEP80 done right. Great, but I already have plans for a VBXE for my 1200XL and figured I didn't need anything beyond software 80 column for my 800 because any serious 80-column work/use I'd just use the 1200XL w/VBXE. But I decided to peak in after @Mathy suggesting a SimCity that used the XEP80 II as a second screen. And I just started reading the thread from the beginning and replying to post I felt the urge to reply too.

 

But, after taking it all in, I've decided I do want one of your XEP80 II's whether it's a bare board I populate myself or one sold complete and working, to use with my 800 and print up a case for it that matches the 800 peripheral style. I thought it might be cool to make a mini 850 style case for it and have it sit atop an 850. Of course I'll have to re-badge XEP80 II to match the 800 line, so it will be badged as an 880 to fit in with my system. I think it will look very cool sitting on top of the 850 interface, Another peripheral I hardly use, even less so with Fujinet now, but I like having most or all the peripherals made to match a given system.

 

On my 1200XL I have the 1030 that was never used and I planned on repurposing it into an SIO hub and SDrive Max device, but now it's going to be and SIO hub and Fujinet device and possibly still throw an SDrive Max into it as well but that's another peripheral I have and have never used yet I have better alternatives, but I liked the idea of an LCD touch-screen on the top of the 1030.  And I rarely used 1010 & 1020 peripherals along with 2 1050's, etc. for a mostly complete "system." But it's not all for show, I do use everything at least once in a while, except the 1030, but it will get used daily once I convert it.

 

But the hobby for me is as much about making and hacking the hardware as it is about using it, so I make stuff or hack stuff simply because I like too, regardless if I'll use them much or not.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Gunstar

[+Stephen]

On 8/14/2021 at 5:23 PM, Gunstar said:

On 6/24/2021 at 9:00 PM, DrVenkman said:

For real - VBXE is awesome and if only it didn't require a 15.7kHz-compatible monitor,

I've been using RGB2VGA scaler/converters for about 15 years with my 15.7kHz RGB devices that goes out to cheap Walmart LCD TV's. It works great, no special monitor required. Maybe the VBXE should be packaged together with an inexpensive converter since VGA inputs is still common on most HD TV's and even old VGA CRT monitors can be had for cheap.

Funny (no - actually really sad) how people will consider adapters of any kind (RF to HDMI, composite to HDMI, video scalers, composite to VGA, intermediate VGA to HDMI, and whatever else I forget) in order to hook anything from a 2600 to a vectrex up to a modern monitor, but mention VBXE and everyone throws a fit about "no monitors, no convertors".  People will run convertors three levels deep to get overscanned monochrome XEP-80 on a screen, but won't spend 5 minutes to adapt or run VBXE?

[Mazzspeed]

11 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Funny (no - actually really sad) how people will consider adapters of any kind (RF to HDMI, composite to HDMI, video scalers, composite to VGA, intermediate VGA to HDMI, and whatever else I forget) in order to hook anything from a 2600 to a vectrex up to a modern monitor, but mention VBXE and everyone throws a fit about "no monitors, no convertors".  People will run convertors three levels deep to get overscanned monochrome XEP-80 on a screen, but won't spend 5 minutes to adapt or run VBXE?

Is there an adapter to conventional RGB suitable for modern LCD's? The whole 15Khz thing was the only reason I got a Sophia 2 over VBXE, I didn't think there was a way around it.

[+DrVenkman]

5 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Is there an adapter to conventional RGB suitable for modern LCD's? The whole 15Khz thing was the only reason I got a Sophia 2 over VBXE, I didn't think there was a way around it.

A GBS8200/8220 arcade scan converter will generate a really nice VGA signal from 15kzh RGB from the VBXE.

[Mazzspeed]

Just now, DrVenkman said:

A GBS8200/8220 arcade scan converter will generate a really nice VGA signal from 15kzh RGB from the VBXE.

Really? Damn. I don't know whether I can fit both Sophia 2 and VBXE in my 600XL.

[+mytek]

I've been doing some experiments with @phaeron's ultra-speed driver and think I have a solution for better stability. Basically I connected  2 schmitt trigger inverters in series, which gives me a schmitt trigger non-inverting buffer, and connected this inline with the NS405's RXD line. Thus far it appears to be working, and I'm no longer seeing random symbols and letters occasionally showing up in odd places as I was before. If I choose to go this route, I'll rework the button debounce circuit to use at least one of the leftover inverters in place of the optoisolator, and also a couple more for the HSYNC delay circuit.

 

I'll continue attempting to break things with the new RXD buffer, but so far it's looking pretty solid.

 

[Mazzspeed]

30 minutes ago, mytek said:

I've been doing some experiments with @phaeron's ultra-speed driver and think I have a solution for better stability. Basically I connected  2 schmitt trigger inverters in series, which gives me a schmitt trigger non-inverting buffer, and connected this inline with the NS405's RXD line. Thus far it appears to be working, and I'm no longer seeing random symbols and letters occasionally showing up in odd places as I was before. If I choose to go this route, I'll rework the button debounce circuit to use at least one of the leftover inverters in place of the optoisolator, and also a couple more for the HSYNC delay circuit.

 

I'll continue attempting to break things with the new RXD buffer, but so far it's looking pretty solid.

 

This is awesome mytek, basically an XEP-80 built the way it should have been built (with the exception of the HDMI out of course). Outstanding work!

[Dinadan67]

8 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

Really? Damn. I don't know whether I can fit both Sophia 2 and VBXE in my 600XL.

You can, @MARIO130XE has both in his 600XL.

[Mazzspeed]

1 hour ago, Dinadan67 said:

You can, @MARIO130XE has both in his 600XL.

Hmmmm, interesting. I need pics. 

 

Thanks @Dinadan67

[nebpehtira]

5 hours ago, mytek said:

I've been doing some experiments with @phaeron's ultra-speed driver and think I have a solution for better stability. Basically I connected  2 schmitt trigger inverters in series, which gives me a schmitt trigger non-inverting buffer, and connected this inline with the NS405's RXD line. Thus far it appears to be working, and I'm no longer seeing random symbols and letters occasionally showing up in odd places as I was before. If I choose to go this route, I'll rework the button debounce circuit to use at least one of the leftover inverters in place of the optoisolator, and also a couple more for the HSYNC delay circuit.

 

I'll continue attempting to break things with the new RXD buffer, but so far it's looking pretty solid.

 

I have zero idea what this means, but it sounds clever and I endorse it! ??

[+mytek]

3 hours ago, nebpehtira said:

I have zero idea what this means, but it sounds clever and I endorse it! ??

I'm not sure if this will help, but here's a good description of the inverters I am using in my experiment: https://www.electrosoftcloud.com/en/schmitt-trigger-what-is/

 

The IC chip I chose is the 74HC14, which has six of these inverters packaged in one 14-pin device. They are relatively cheap at around $0.40 each, and are a very common chip, manufactured by multiple vendors. Essentially they remove noise and restore digital signals to their ideal form. Since the Atari joystick ports have some RF emmision filtering via resistors and capacitors (and sometimes inductors like on the XEGS), the signal rise and fall time tends to look somewhat analog in nature instead of a true square wave as it should be. Using the schmitt trigger inverters in tandem restores the signal integrity, without inverting the signal.

 

Pushing the serial transmission speed faster as was done in Avery's Ultra-Speed XEP80 driver revealed the noise issue to a higher degree, making it kinda like a mis-fire in an automobile engine.

 

 

Since there are six inverters available, and I only need two for NS405's (80 column display IC) serial RXD input, the other four are finding other uses, and have allowed for removal of the optoisolator in the push button switch de-bounce circuit, and also replaced the need for the 74HC86 exclusive OR IC chip. So in the end I will actually have one less IC chip as a result.

 

[+mytek]

Project Update

 

Well so many things changed that we are now at revision level V1.1.

 

Changes

1. Schmitt Trigger signal conditioning was added to the RXD line used to communicate information from the Atari to the NS405 80 column display controller.
2. Adjustments were made to the 80 column video feeding the AV2HDMI converter, which also required an additional load resistor to GND.
3. Connector J1 needed to be flipped around 180.
4. The S-Video connector J4 had it's pin numbers mirrored which caused incorrect connections for luma and chroma, so that's been corrected.
5. The 74HC86 chip has been replaced with the 74HC14, and the 74HC02 had one of its gates rewired as a sync combiner to replace this function in the 74HC86.
6. HSYNC delay has been re-implemented with extra gates in the 74HC14 (this positions things correctly on screen).
7. The optoisolator push button de-bounce circuit has been replaced via some gates in the 74HC14, so the opto has been eliminated.

 

Due to some of these changes the 80 column output now looks very crisp, and does a much better job of rendering the inverted characters, which tended to bloom before.

 

Using latest NTSC display timing parameters - photo taken with digital camera from HDTV screen

 

Another run of sample PCBs will be put into play fairly soon, which I don't anticipate any issues with (knock on wood).

 

I've also begun work on the XEP80-II specific web page on my website which promises to be filled with very useful information on this project. And it'll have all the custom drivers and XEP programs available as downloads. There's nothing to see yet, but when it gets published I'll be sure to make an announcement here on AA

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by mytek

[+Larry]

The photo sure looks clean and sharp!  Is this HDMI or Luma output?  Can you tell any difference between them?

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

The photo sure looks clean and sharp!  Is this HDMI or Luma output?  Can you tell any difference between them?

Its HDMI. Assuming you have a good monitor, luma should look just as good if not better. However there's a better chance that HDMI will yield the better results since not that many LCDs do justice to an analog input. Personally my aim has been to shoot for HDMI, since I for one have very few decent analog monitors, but everyone has an HDTV. However for those that insist, there still is the possibility of using this in an analog mode, but keep in mind you also lose the ability to to utilize the onboard video switching that allows for a single monitor to view both the 80 column and stock Atari video. It would take several more jacks to cover all the possibilities signal-wise, and I really don't wish to make the board any bigger than it already is to accommodate that.

 

[+mytek]

Having a slight problem with AtariWriter 80. When I use the official Atari version from either FujiNet SD or SIO2PC, it won't give me a directory for Disk 1, but it will for Disk 2 (this occurs when selecting either 1 or 2 from the main menu). But I can still do a load and save to Disk 1, and everything else appears to work. Now if I instead use the 'working' copies supplied in the Atarimania download, then both directories will work from the main menu, but if I go into either the mail merge or the spell checker programs, and then try to return to Atari Writer by presing 'R' on the main menu, it just keeps beeping at me and is basically stuck in whichever program I'm trying to exit from. When I looked at those program files, they each appear to want to return to D:AP.OBJ which doesn't exist on the 'working' version disks (AP.OBJ has been renamed as AUTORUN.SYS instead). So it appears that someone may have only done a partial fix.

 

Anyway I was thinking that perhaps an easy way to correct this would be to have a tiny binary load file called AP.OBJ on disk, and then have it load AUTORUN.SYS as a work around. Only problem is I'm not really sure how I create such a thing. I was also thinking of editing the MM and PROOF files to point back to AUTORUN.SYS, but since that's a much larger name than AP.OBJ, I'm not sure how I would squeeze that into the space that's presently allocated.

 

And then I'm also left wondering why the original Atari versions aren't fully working. Is it something to do with not loading from a 'real' disk? I did try downloading from another site, but still see the same behaviour.

 

[Atari8guy]

The disk images of Atariwriter 80 work fine with the original XEP80 for me, at least to load from Fujinet. Like you I’ve never been able to get a directory on the Atariwriter ATX image either. As far as I know you cannot write back to an ATX image on Fujinet anyway it’s read only (I think). If you’ve managed to load and save to an ATX that’s new to me. I always use a D2 image for saving files.

 

These are my own experiences and I’m a novice compared to most around here. But I do use my XEP and Atariwriter 80 regularly.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[_The Doctor__]

So it works fine from a 1050 but not from fujinet or sio2pc? check if they allow disk writes?

you might also consider the normal AtariWriter w/ spartados hack that made it's way around the users groups... maybe it could be applied to aw80 as well, that opens up some possibilities when it comes to device compatibilities.

Remember that AW80 expects the xep driver to have a printer port... not sure if new fast drivers still have that in there.

[+mytek]

4 hours ago, 8bitguy1 said:

The disk images of Atariwriter 80 work fine with the original XEP80 for me, at least to load from Fujinet. Like you I’ve never been able to get a directory on the Atariwriter ATX image either. As far as I know you cannot write back to an ATX image on Fujinet anyway it’s read only (I think). If you’ve managed to load and save to an ATX that’s new to me.

I'm using ATRs (not ATXs) from the zipped folder I downloaded from Atarimania. I transferred those individual ATRs onto an SD card for my FujiNet, and also tried them with an SIO2PC as well. Anyway it really doesn't appear to be an issue with the media or the device(s) I'm loading from, since the versions for both the 48K 800, XL/XE and the one for the 130XE that have been designated as 'working' versions do indeed access both the D1 and D2 drive. I believe the 'working' versions were fixed to properly function in certain emulators.

 

However what doesn't work with these versions is after going into either mail merge or spell check, it won't allow me to return to AtariWriter. And for fear of being redundant, when I looked at the two problematic programs, they both appeared to be pointing to AP.OBJ (which is the normal AtariWriter app), but in the 'working' versions that app has been renamed as AUTORUN.SYS.

 

And I just feel like I'm repeating myself (which I obviously am )... the ATR's that appear to be original and untampered with, work in all regards except the disk directory function for D1 doesn't appear to be working, although D2 does. I also downloaded and tested the ones on Mr Fish's website as well, with the same results.

 

BTW when I selected the ATRs in FujiNet and assigned them to D1, I also used the 'W' option to make them writable.

 

4 hours ago, 8bitguy1 said:

I always use a D2 image for saving files.

Yeah that's probably the smarter thing to do, but I really want this to be fully working, which means the ability to get a directory listing for D1 also needs to work. After all, why have that function on the menu if it doesn't work.

 

3 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

So it works fine from a 1050 but not from fujinet or sio2pc? check if they allow disk writes?

I dunno, since I don't have a real working floppy disk drive to test with.

 

3 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Remember that AW80 expects the xep driver to have a printer port... not sure if new fast drivers still have that in there.

It doesn't matter since AW gives you a choice to not use it, and I have successfully done that by choosing an XMM801 from the printer list and printing to FujiNet. But you're right the fast drivers no longer support the built-in printer port, however AtariWriter 80 does.

 

 

EDIT: I was using a HSIO patched OS, so maybe I should try a stock OS with the standard AW file versions just for grins. Although I can load and save to D1, so I doubt that is an issue.

Edited August 28, 2021 by mytek