UAV & S-video troubleshooting

[unixdude]

Hi, all.  I've been modding some Atari 2600/5200 units recently, adding UAV.  Earlier I was only adding composite output, but at @-^CrossBow^-'s suggestion I decided to add S-video as well.  I added S-video to a 2600 and a 5200 yesterday; S-video on the 5200 worked perfectly, but is not working on the 2600.  I have confirmed that the S-video connectors are wired identically to the UAVs in the 2600 & 5200, and my multimeter doesn't show any shorts that I can find.  Composite continues to work perfectly on the 2600.  Any ideas on what I should look at here?

 

I am feeding the UAV into a RetroTINK 2X-MINI, into my Vizio TV.  The RetroTINK does not see S-video from the 2600, but it will see composite.

 

And: @-^CrossBow^-, you were right on!  S-video is so much better than composite!  The output from the 5200 is simply amazing.  It isn't HDMI quality, but it's super sharp, and is a tremendous improvement over RF and composite.  Now I am planning to upgrade all of my systems to S-video.

Edited July 4, 2021 by unixdude

[+DrVenkman]

59 minutes ago, unixdude said:

I have confirmed that the S-video connectors are wired identically to the UAVs in the 2600 & 5200, and my multimeter doesn't show any shorts that I can find

Photos of the installation of the UAV, the wiring and the S-video jack would help. 

 

Do you have a scope? If so you can check the pins of the S-video jack to be sure you’re seeing Luma and Chroma signals at the UAV terminals and at the S-video jack, just in case. 

[unixdude]

Thanks.  I do not have a scope, but I do have a logic probe.  Maybe a logic probe would indicate the changes in the signal? Here are some pics.  I show the s-video connectors on both systems, and the UAV on both systems.  I trust you will be able to identify which is which.

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Where is the black wire you have for the Luma ground attached on the s-video from the 2600? I use the same ground off the UAV next to the Chroma output for both Luma and Chroma in my installs and use the other ground next to the composite output for the audio and composite. If you aren't getting a proper ground to at least the Luma output, then you won't get anything from the s-video. S-video will provide a black and white picture if you at least have the luma output working properly.

 

 

[unixdude]

I forget where I found this diagram (it's here on AA in a 2600 UAV thread I think), but I include it here because it's what I used as my guide.  I don't know whether the author of the diagram is showing the S-video connector as the male or female side, but I got it to work by wiring it up with the diagram showing the S-video connector male end (that is, when wiring it up to my female connector, I left-right flipped it).  @-^CrossBow^-, with the left-right flip, it is wired as shown below -- that is, Chroma ground goes to the rightmost pin on the 6-block.  Luma ground is on block-pin-2.  Chroma signal is block-pin-3.  Luma signal is block-pin-4.  You can match the colors between my connector and terminal block to see what I mean.

 

Also, I have made progress getting this 2600 sorted: on a whim, I disconnected the S-video connectors from both the 2600 (not working) and 5200 (known good), and ran the wires from the 5200 connector to the 2600 UAV, and I do get S-video out. So, something is wrong with the connector or my wiring or both, on the 2600.  It's weird, though -- my multimeter shows continuity between the UAV and the correct pin on the male end of an S-video cable connected to the 2600 S-video connector.  Who knows.  I bought 10 S-video connectors, though, and I have gobs of wire, so I'll just make a new one.

 

I'm not sure of the best way to solder a wire to these S-video connector pins (there's no hole in the pins), so I've just been creating a loop on the end of the wire, then looping that around and soldering it to the pin.  Is there a better way?

 

Also, am I correct about the s-video connector in the diagram showing the male side?

Edited July 4, 2021 by unixdude

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Yes the diagram is showing the s-video connector from the front view and not the solder pins view. So it could be showing the male end off the cable, but likely showing the connection on the female connection from the front of the jack and not the back.

What I do in all of my installs with the UAV is to use the ground next to the chroma output and wire it to both grounds on the s-video jack. I actually don't even loop them around the pins. I just get a small glob of solder on the pins and tin up the wires. I then just solder the wires flat against the pins followed with some shrink tubing to make that section more rigid and less likely to be bent around causing the wires to break. On the ground, I actually will bend both of the ground pins towards each other centered and then solder my single ground wire to the pins that way. I don't usually use shrink tubing on the ground but make sure to leave plenty of slack on that wire so if it does get moved around, there is plenty there to not stress that wire much. I use the other ground next to the trimmer for the composite and audio although any ground along the system could be made to be used.

 

But again, when troubleshooting s-video, if you at least have the luma outputs working and all the inputs wired up properly, you will get a nice and clear black n white image at least. But if only the chroma is connected, you won't see anything from the s-video.

 

Here is a pic of one 7800 I did over a year ago where you can see how I do the s-video using a single ground for both. 

 

[unixdude]

Thanks, guys.  I finally got this sorted - I must have been crimping the terminal block screw onto the insulation of one of the wires.  2600 displayed through 5200's S-video connector, and 5200 displayed through 2600's S-video connector, so I tried again with 2600 S-video on 2600's connector, and all is well.

 

I note that both of my S-video switchboxes introduce vertical bars onto S-video sources (see attached pic) -- neither switchbox does this with composite sources.  I need to google this yet, but if anyone knows of a good solution to that, I'd love to hear about it.

 

Finally: @-^CrossBow^- - I love the dupont connectors I saw in one of your videos. I'm going to buy a set of those and use them in future UAV mods.

 

 

[+DrVenkman]

4 minutes ago, unixdude said:

I note that both of my S-video switchboxes introduce vertical bars onto S-video sources (see attached pic) -- neither switchbox does this with composite sources.  I need to google this yet, but if anyone knows of a good solution to that, I'd love to hear about it.

No need to google - just open it up and you’ll see the cause. There are almost certainly caps and/or a diode or inductor linking the S-video output to the Composite output.  That’s so you can have composite and S-video sources and output them both through the S-video output but unfortunately, at least when used with UAV-equipped machines, you get over-driven signals on the S-video out.

 

On my switchbox I removed the components that linked the outputs like that, which resulted in beautiful, clear S-video. BUT … the net result on switchbox and with my usual gaming TV is that if I switch between a system with an S-video output (like my 7800) back to one using composite only like my Genesis, my TV won’t display video. I have to physically unplug the S-video cable before the TV will just accept the composite signal without a black screen. Kind of ruins the purpose of my switchbox except for solely S-video equipped machines, or solely composite machines. 

[unixdude]

Thanks. I’ll open one of the switch boxes and see what I see. I wonder if rhe RetroTINK 2X-MINI will care about switching inputs like that. I hope not. 
 

My idea is to have everything hooked up via either S-video or composite, and both outputs connected to the RetroTINK. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by unixdude

[unixdude]

Hmm, I'm not sure that's the problem with mine.  I opened mine up and you can see from the attached pics that it seems to be nothing but a dumb circuit switch.

 

All the audio grounds are connected to each other.  All the composite grounds are connected to each other and to nothing else.  All the S-video grounds are connected to each other and to nothing else.  All the S-video shields are connected to each other and to nothing else.  There is no crossing those boundaries.

 

Edited to add: The video issues are coming from one of my cables.  At the moment, I only have two S-video cables, and one of them has video issues. I'll be buying two of these this week.  I mean, maybe this switch is problematic as well, but one of the cables is definitely bad.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by unixdude

[+DrVenkman]

These things are all pretty much dumb mechanical switches. But I can see in one of your pics there's silkscreening for resistors that don't seem to be visible. It's possible they're built into the switches. In any case, the next thing to do is ping out the Chroma and Luma outputs with the Composite video lines to be sure there's not some component coupling the outputs somewhere.

[unixdude]

Confirmed the issue was my cable: I bought 2 more, and using those I am now getting good S-video signal through the switchbox.  It's nice to have this done.

 

I am extremely happy with a setup of: 2600/5200 UAV -> s-video to RetroTINK 2X-MINI -> HDMI to TV.

 

Thanks for all your help all through this journey, @DrVenkman and @-^CrossBow^-.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Sure thing! Do keep in mind, now that you have s-video on the 2600. Some games through the Tink2x will exhibit odd screen issues. This has all been discussed in lots of ways in the past, but the issue is NOT the UAV or the console. It is a result of the game not being programmed to exact scanline count requirements and the Tink devices not liking what they are getting signal wise. As a result those games will come up with issues or exhibit issues through the Tink devices. 

 

Moon Patrol, Starmaster, Battlezone, Empire Strikes Back, Buck Rogers are the ones I can recall off the top of my head that exhibit graphical quirks and glitches through modern setups. RF usually still works fine though.

 

[unixdude]

I think I noticed the same thing on Asteroids as well.  And, you're making me wonder if I should reconnect RF for those games.

 

I'm definitely much more impressed with the 5200's UAV/S-video output than I am the 2600's, but modding the 2600 for UAV + S-video was definitely still worth it.

Edited July 7, 2021 by unixdude

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I'd heard someone else mention Asteroids also. I don't have these issues with my UAV on my 7800 except for Buck Rogers, but that is because my Extron is apparently able to handle these odd signals far better than the Tink does.

 

[m.o.terra kaesi]

Hi guys.....I just finished my UAV mod on my 6-switcher Light including Audio Mod from the Brewing company.

Problem: I get just black and white, no color! I try to run it on s-video.

The color switch doesnt do anything. Spinning the white wheel on the board doesnt do anything either.

 

Any idea what I could do???

Edited April 15, 2023 by m.o.terra kaesi

[+x=usr(1536)]

19 minutes ago, m.o.terra kaesi said:

Problem: I get just black and white, no color! I try to run it on s-video.

The color switch doesnt do anything.

Just to clarify: it's up to individual games whether or not the Color / B&W switch does anything.  The 2600 itself doesn't change the display between the two.

19 minutes ago, m.o.terra kaesi said:

Spinning the white wheel on the board doesnt do anything either.

 

Any idea what I could do???

Check the Chroma output; it almost sounds like it's disconnected.

 

Did you connect the TIA's colour output to the UAV's colour in pin, or to the Tcol pad?

[m.o.terra kaesi]

11 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Just to clarify: it's up to individual games whether or not the Color / B&W switch does anything.  The 2600 itself doesn't change the display between the two.

Check the Chroma output; it almost sounds like it's disconnected.

 

Did you connect the TIA's colour output to the UAV's colour in pin, or to the Tcol pad?

I tried it with Dig Dug.

 

I switched even the chroma and luma because i was not sure it was the right side connected. So its not the connection.

 

Check the picture for your second question. R212 to left side UAV (red wire)

Edited April 15, 2023 by m.o.terra kaesi

[+x=usr(1536)]

Got it.  FWIW, Pac-Man definitely supports changing the palette for colour or B&W.  It may be a good one to test with if you have it because everyone knows what it should look (and sound) like 

 

It just occurred to me that you're in Switzerland, which means that you're probably working with a PAL 2600.  I re-read the UAV instructions for the 6-switch models, and it doesn't mention a difference between how the UAV is installed in PAL models compared to NTSC.  However, that doesn't mean that there might not be a difference.

 

My experience with the UAV in 2600s is strictly with NTSC machines, but I know that others have installed them in PAL consoles.  Better to hear what they have to say.

[m.o.terra kaesi]

No...I have a NTSC machine. I hate PAL for the 2600 because the color palette is limited.

So I got the correct machine for the correct instructions.

 

But anyhow...DIG DUG should at least be in color I guess (if not b/w)

Edited April 15, 2023 by m.o.terra kaesi

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Instead of lifting pin 6 of the TIA you could have just desoldered one leg of the resistor that ties pin 6 and pin 9 together. Much less risk that way. A resistor is stupid easy to get to replace, but the TIA? That isn't as cheap a replacement. That said, it does look like you have the color wire connected properly. I'm not sure about the jumper settings because I don't personally use the 4050 install method in the 6 switchers. I just wire everything directly to the vias on the UAV where needed like in a 4 switch install and call it a day. 

 

But you should be getting color regardless. If you had the chroma and luma reversed you would just get a scrambled looking output. If you don't have chroma connected or the ground for chroma isn't connected on your s-video jack, then that results in a clear blank n white output from the Luma side only.

 

Have you tested composite? If you get color from the composite output, then the UAV and your wiring are fine on the UAV side and you need to look more to the chroma output to your s-video jack.

 

[m.o.terra kaesi]

here's an update on my "mod fiasco" a while ago:

 

A friend of mine modded my NTSC 6-Switcher for me with the UAV-mod + audio-mod. It finally works now.

But the result is, that the s-video signal has almost no visible difference from the composite signal. Quite the opposite: on some screens/monitor the video quality looks even worst in s-video!

We first thought the mod-set is broken, so he installed a 2nd set, but same result!

 

Can anyone of you make sense of this?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

23 hours ago, m.o.terra kaesi said:

here's an update on my "mod fiasco" a while ago:

 

A friend of mine modded my NTSC 6-Switcher for me with the UAV-mod + audio-mod. It finally works now.

 

But the result is, that the s-video signal has almost no visible difference from the composite signal. Quite the opposite: on some screens/monitor the video quality looks even worst in s-video!

We first thought the mod-set is broken, so he installed a 2nd set, but same result!

 

Can anyone of you make sense of this?

Can you provide some pictures? Because I've NEVER had the composite look better than the s-video on UAV installs. So there has to be something amiss with the console since you said a second UAV provided the same results?