Gaming on the TT, or not!

[Randy]

3 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

"but now I am not sure if HAGA and HAGE is the same!" - and why should be same ?  That's the first problem - assuming that it is similar, so must be mistype or whatever. No sir, there is some people who is aware how accuracy, details are important in computer things (and not only in it), so takes care to not make such mistakes, and usually checks what wrote before clicking that Submit Reply button.

This is not language problem, everyone active here is pretty good with English. Difference is in way of thinking, attitude, how much time  willing to give before getting in discussion in thread. I can only say - if want it quick, better skip whole thing. Shallow posts spiced with not reading (carefully) what was written surely are good only to make it more confusing, annoying others, instead clarify things.

 

Term (abbrev) AES is used a lot in Atari ST talk, and it is minimal respect toward Atari ST (who is beloved admittedly by many people active here) to know what is it.    http://toshyp.atari.org/en/008002.html

 

And how hard is to understand that TOS in RAM is special for cases when some SW does not work well under some specific TOS version(s) .

So, not relevant what TOS is in Mega STE or TT when hard disk adaptation will install TOS 1.04 in RAM and set it as active before starting game.

It can work even from floppy disk in many cases (problem can be with longer games, which fit not on 1 floppy) .

"and I do not understand why you think that Tilek did not read what is writen in this thread? "  Because what wrote was  very inappropriate. Actually disregarding of someone's hard work.  At least should say something like 'original Sundog ... ' . And that game is interesting because there is only 1, short regular file on floppy, other parts are loaded with XBIOS 8 call (use google if don't know what is it) . Interesting because it needs to be redirected to hard disk instead floppy disk when want to play from hard - and which TT is without hard disk or SD card adapter ?

 

"I suppose that they are glad that some more game will work with Falcon and TT! "  .  I suppose that they would be more happy if reading instructions, readme files and like ... Surely, there are many who do it, and then what ? - will not see their posts here, because people write in forums mostly when have some problems. Often almost impossible to solve based on very limited problem description.

 

It is not title self, words in title what is problem, but such attitude.  It is for instance too general. Like if some games work not, better to not play at all on TT ... No, Atari ST was not made like some very smart people joined forces, made HW and SW design, and voila ! - we have now Macintosh killer .

It was lot of experimenting, tries with different solutions, then correcting, testing again, and so on, over many months - and we got first ST, with unfinished TOS . Similar is with games - lot of games made in ST's golden years have flaws (partially caused by poor official DOCs) . And even with adaptations it was similar - it needed time to develop efficient solutions for all types of games. To make adapting easier. TOS in RAM is one of most useful solutions in all this - much easier to fix now well coded game for only 1 TOS version, that patching it for multiple TOS versions - just one of benefits.

 

That "endless stream of "404" is result of plenty earlier active Atari ST sites shut down, abandoned. Reminds me on my city and smaller shops - not many left of them.

 

End something so bad, that I'm glad that it was not me who experienced it: about some 10 years ago D-bug asked publicly that people post on their forum demands for what game to 'patch for hard disks' - and there was plenty of posts about. Only with 'small' error in many cases:  they asked something what was already done, by D-bug self, or Klaz, listed on their site, with DL, ?  That was really so counter productive, reckless ... 

 

I hope my English was good enough for most. Was my style good for all - I doubt. Sorry, not nice things happen, and they will not disappear by self, without pointing on them, and working on making it better - life is like computer SW - full with bugs, and not only in Summer ?

 

i

This post clears up some things now, more informative.  So with those PP files, TOS 1.04 is loaded in and game played on that rather than the machines TOS, in the case of the TT, TOS 3.06.  am I understanding that correctly? 

[Tillek]

1 hour ago, Randy said:

Interestingly, that one does boot up from the files I got from PP, although I have not yet run the game to see if there is some in-game issues like I have with Frontier.

You’ll notice it as you drive through town.

[Randy]

4 minutes ago, Tillek said:

You’ll notice it as you drive through town.

Ahh, good to know, much like Frontier, which seems to work and then you can't fly to another station as the hyperspace locator or whatever you call it will not allow you to choose another system.

 

So from what Peter posted, it would appear that the TT TOS is not used in the system when running his games, that to insure the best capability a version of TOS 1.04 is written into ROM and used to run the games.  Makes sense for the greatest compatibility as well as allowing the larger games to be run from an SD card for reliability, it may be that the TOS overwrite of call is interfering with or some how breaking the operability.  Time for more experimentation to see what is going on and see if there is a solution for the TT.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Writing into ROM is not possible.

[anzac]

8 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Writing into ROM is not possible.

When I read it, I assumed he meant RAM, but i might be making a mistake and he really meant ROM

[ParanoidLittleMan]

No, this was just another case of shallowness. Most sad is that it is maybe not in this post, but overall. And I'm writing this in best will - please take more care. It is really PITA to watch how someone want to find solution in this complex things without sufficient basic (not language ? ) knowledge.

This starts to be something like 'mind gaming' on TT ?

[Randy]

3 hours ago, anzac said:

When I read it, I assumed he meant RAM, but i might be making a mistake and he really meant ROM

Sorry, meant RAM, obviously can't read to a ROM, but meant the ROM code that makes up TOS 1.04 into RAM where the game?/computer? can access the code it needs to run the computer and get it whatever it needs to run the game.  I have been trying other games which do not have this issue, some are working fine, but its hard to find MSA files that can be unpacked and then run from the HD, most want to autoboot from the floppy where it can deal with whatever copy protection remains on the packed file, if any.  I am going to try some games directly from the original floppy(ies) and see what happens.  I think I will also try hooking the gotek to the TT and see how .st files run, that may be the best solution...

[Tillek]

7 hours ago, Randy said:

Ahh, good to know, much like Frontier, which seems to work and then you can't fly to another station as the hyperspace locator or whatever you call it will not allow you to choose another system.

 

So from what Peter posted, it would appear that the TT TOS is not used in the system when running his games, that to insure the best capability a version of TOS 1.04 is written into ROM and used to run the games.  Makes sense for the greatest compatibility as well as allowing the larger games to be run from an SD card for reliability, it may be that the TOS overwrite of call is interfering with or some how breaking the operability.  Time for more experimentation to see what is going on and see if there is a solution for the TT.

Well, that said...

 

I was talking about my experience from awhile back, using the original game, long before I ever came to AA.

 

It would seem from some of the comments that we can only talk about PP's games here so.... peace y'all.  Sorry my understanding was so "shallow".

 

[Randy]

44 minutes ago, Tillek said:

Well, that said...

 

I was talking about my experience from awhile back, using the original game, long before I ever came to AA.

 

It would seem from some of the comments that we can only talk about PP's games here so.... peace y'all.  Sorry my understanding was so "shallow".

 

Tillek, your good, there is no "shallowness" here, your Princess Bride meme is right on, thanks for posting!

[Randy]

Well, tried some originals on the floppy, no go, but these were mostly older games.  Also tried the Gotek, no go there as well, nothing would run.  I am beginning to think that most good, classic, games will not work on the TT. 

[Randy]

OK, tried the PP Frontier from floppy on a Falcon, worked fine but surprisingly not all that fast, faster for sure on the TT.  I was able to get a copy of Monkey Island running, I believe there will be further games that will work, but just not the big titles I was hoping for, will put together what I am able to run as I go through them, thanks.

[Randy]

Just thought of something, wondering if the TT ram expansion would have a negative effect here?

[doctorclu]

I loved the TT030 but this is why I eventually got rid of it.   Blazing fast speed, and yet like a 1/5th of the games worked from an already relatively small library of games. 

 

That said, had fun playing games on Spectre GCR (Mac emulator), and hours of Battle of Britian: Their Finest Hour by Lucas Games.

[Randy]

1 hour ago, Randy said:

Just thought of something, wondering if the TT ram expansion would have a negative effect here?

Would you believe it, the TT ram expansion breaks the PP games, once I removed the TT ram, the games worked off the US!  Haven't tried all games, and there may be some with issues, but right now the only problem I have seen with about 5 games is Time Bandit runs really slow, which is a surprise as Frontier runs pretty fast.  Now, there may be some settings I can tweak in the hardware settings of PP's menu, the "M" settings, so will give that a try next.  But at least some progress now.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Time Bandit, release TIMEB21 has added slowdown for TT, so game running speed is approx same as on 8 MHz ST.

 

Running games on TT from floppies, usual reasons for failure:

 

Copy protection  -  it's code fails on 68030 . Example Dungeon Master .

So, recommended is to use not originals (sorry SCP folks) .

 

TOS version - TT TOS 3.06 is very similar to 2.06.  One of most common reasons is floppy code - Timer-C is used in it (same is in 2.06), and if game changes Timer-C settings reading from disk fails. Btw. lot of hard disk drivers will fail too if org. Timer-C setting (200 Hz rate) is changed. Example: Space Harrier .

Of course there are some other things in 3.06 what some games don't like - for instance more RAM used by TOS, so if game is coded to start in lower RAM area it will conflict with TOS/AES workspace - and crash. This is what is usually harder to understand - "I have plenty of RAM, so how it is not enough for some game what works with 512 KB ? " . Because they coded so, and not relocatable, and tested only with older TOS version(s).  Example:  Millennium 2.2  .

 

CPU related problems:  68030 is in big part compatible with 68000, but there are some differences:

Stack - in short stackframe is longer by 68030 than by 68000 .  Like 8 bytes instead 6 bytes by interrupts, traps . Usually that's not problem, except with code what uses some manipulations with stack, and assumes that is is 6 byte stackframe.  Only way to make such SW running on TT, Falcon or generally on machines using 68020/30 is correction of code self - each code section manually, adding links to loc. where corrected code will be executed, because no space in original code for it.  I guess that at least some 10-15% of games is with such code.

Other CPU related problem is :  pipeline bug (as I called it).  I found it in only few games - like Infestation. 68020/30 have so called pipeline, what contains preloaded few instructions from RAM/ROM , and it can make execution faster, like in case of branches - then no need to wait for load it from slower memory (RAM/ROM) .   The problem happens with self modifying code - if it writes some change in RAM loc. only few bytes after current PC (program counter, so loc. what is just executed by CPU) it will be written in RAM, but it is already in pipeline, and will execute old content - error.

As with stackframe, this needs manual correction of problematic code section.

 

CPU cache can make some SW running not well too, from similar reasons like with pipeline. So, it is better to switch it off, especially on TT which is often too fast for games.   Can switch it off in Desktop, Options, but in case of AUTO run or autoboot from floppy it may need extra floppy with special SW to switch CPU cache off.

 

In some cases there is TOS version, region test, or screen refresh rate test (50 or 60 Hz), because it is published for some region only - that will fail on TT with big chance.

 

More details, usual problems when trying with copying files to hard disk: http://atari.8bitchip.info/playfhd.html

 

[+DarkLord]

This is just a thought...but I just went through it with the STorm ST

RAM expansion card on my my Mega ST4 with an AdSpeed board.

It adds 8 megs of ALT/FAST/TT style RAM.

 

I had to go through and set the flags on individual AUTO folder

programs, ACC's 'n stuff to get to a point where things didn't

crash.

 

I used a CPX to set the examine the files in question, then

adjust their flag settings. The flags I'm talking about are

fastload, TT RAM and TT PRG.

 

Not definitively saying this is the problem, but something you

might want to look into, just in case.

 

HTH's. 

 

[Randy]

49 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

This is just a thought...but I just went through it with the STorm ST

RAM expansion card on my my Mega ST4 with an AdSpeed board.

It adds 8 megs of ALT/FAST/TT style RAM.

 

I had to go through and set the flags on individual AUTO folder

programs, ACC's 'n stuff to get to a point where things didn't

crash.

 

I used a CPX to set the examine the files in question, then

adjust their flag settings. The flags I'm talking about are

fastload, TT RAM and TT PRG.

 

Not definitively saying this is the problem, but something you

might want to look into, just in case.

 

HTH's. 

 

Hey Darklord, I am trying to set up the TT with a clean install using the TT USA language disk as this TT came with a HD with a full on load out of programs, accs, and auto folder stuff, mostly in German, that I want to pick and choose to run during boot.  But one issue I am having is that there is no CPX acc (control panel) on the language disk, there are cpx modules but I don't see the cpx module to run in the auto folder so can't make any changes using the cpx modules.  Am I missing something, or should I just use an older CPX acc to geit up and running, thought there might be a new cpx acc for the TT TOS.  Thanks

[+DarkLord]

The newer version of CONTROL.ACC runs the CPX's.

 

It sits at the root level of your C drive. The CPX's are

usually found in a folder called CPX. The Control ACC

will let you manage all your CPX's.

 

Nothing AUTO folder involved with these...

 

HTHs.

 

[Randy]

Thanks, PP, turning off the cache slowed down Breach (really slowed it down although still faster than on 8 mHz ST) now seems to allow Breach to run without the grenade "bug", now just got to figure out why Frontier won't run properly, I can't select any new systems to hyper-jump to.  Darklord, I found the control panel marked "xcontrol.acc", this seems to be the correct one as I am getting the cpx modules active now, thanks.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Again, the real question, thread title should be not 'To gaming or not to .. ' but how to .  As almost everything this is not black or white, there is countless number of grey, and even some rainbow colors in between ?

[+DarkLord]

Dang Peter, if I didn't know better I'd swear you just

made a joke! 

 

[Tillek]

6 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

Dang Peter, if I didn't know better I'd swear you just

made a joke! 

 

Good thing you know better.  I read it as him being a judgemental ass and trying to prove he's right and that everyone else here has a "shallow understanding" as always.

[+DarkLord]

Huh. I took the "rainbow colors" comment as making a reference to TOS V1.04. 

 

Ah, but what do I know, eh? 

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Oh, I'm sorry that I learned something in countless hours spent while dealt with over 1400 games, from which big % now works on TT computers too, thanx to made corrections, TOS 1.04 in RAM.  So, yes, I admit that considering this topic, I know most, and I'm in right in most cases.

Those who don't listen are not only disrespectful but additionally make this harder to self (not reading instructions, descriptions on what it works).

And yes, it is typical to say "everyone else" from someone shallow. No sir, not everyone, but you just prove again that you are it. Go to your mom and cry to her. Here we, not shallow ones trying to solve problems . And it would work better without those for who their ego is first. Try to do something constructive - you will feel better.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

9 hours ago, DarkLord said:

Huh. I took the "rainbow colors" comment as making a reference to TOS V1.04. 

 

Ah, but what do I know, eh? 

 

While I wrote that I realized that grey scale is too limited, sorry word 'countless' that I used you on wrong place (only 256 values in true color), so went with not R=G=B colors too ?

And actually it is surely much better - black, white, gray - one dimensional - that would be another word for shallow ones ?

 

Here to add little statistic:  unlike "best in everything" crew (and imagine what ? - it's not me, but those who don't miss a chance to call self publicly it, write it everywhere) , which claimed that most of Atari ST games using "DMA disk" loader (misleading name - TOS floppy read uses DMA too, of course. Correct name would be direct FDC code, or custom disk loader ..  .  I used pretty big game base already some 10 years ago, and result is that about 60-65% ST games using TOS calls (functions) for floppy read/write . And now, when I dealt with many other games that percentage stays.

And when game using TOS for disk access, it is usual that uses it for many other things - like keyboard, mouse, joystick read, memory configuration, screen operations (not best idea, it might be slow - fresh example:  Pothole Pete - simple platformer, yet slow movement, little laggy control, if there is blitter it is better), etc. So, idea to use some TOS version in RAM was actually pretty normal (considering it's benefits, considering time needed to disassemble it properly correct for work in RAM, for game playing it was little abnormal) . But as said it made whole  process of adapting games faster and simpler, so it paid already after some 200 games.