New competition (?) The Steam Deck

[Bill Loguidice]

29 minutes ago, leech said:

This is literally because of the addictive nature of them.  Pretty sure this guy I know has spent many thousands on in-app purchases to play iOS games... and he generally finds one that he just sticks with for a while and gets addicted.

 

I am fortunate in that I get bored with games easily, and have thousands of games in Steam I can change to when I squirrel off to something else.

I get that, but I suppose one could argue that gaming was and always has been built around addiction, e.g., getting a higher score than last time, reaching that next level, completing that mission, collecting all the rubarb, etc. And one could also argue that the difference now versus in the past is that instead of paying all of your money up front, you pay it over time (although, of course, arcade games were the original microtransactions!).

 

I personally play Fortnite a lot still (only on PC, really). It's a free game, of course, but I've spent probably a few hundred dollars over the years for various V-Bucks and passes to get more in-game collectibles. I sometimes feel like I play out of obligation to unlock the next "cool" thing, but most of the time it's really because I want to (it's fun). So I don't mind investing occasional real money into what could always be a free game because I get a lot of joy out of it and feel like I can enhance that enjoyment with the occasional special cosmetic skin. Frankly, I've probably played more hours of Fortnite at this point than any other game in my life (it helps that I sometimes play with my daughters), which is really saying something for someone like me, so I consider that all positive.

 

I do get the addiction thing, of course, especially with the danger of microtransactions, which really have no cap like just investing one time in a game, but then I guess that's just human nature. Most things in life that are addictive aren't limited, so it's hard for me to rail against addictive gaming just because some people abuse it.

[zzip]

4 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I don't see that succeeding in that way. Even if the Steam Deck is a raging success - and I don't see how it can be (I'm of course not discounting a sustainable success) - it will just mean more Linux game support, not less Windows support.

From what I understand Valve isn't relying on more Linux games ports as much as they are relying on 'Proton' to get Windows-native games running well under Linux on the Steam Deck-

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, leech said:

With Windows 11 there is the likely cost of needing new hardware with people without TPM2.0 modules will end up having to run an 'unsupported' install. 

Potentially, but for those people who can't upgrade, Windows 10 will still work fine for quite a while. All new hardware will be Windows 11-enabled by default. It's also my understanding that much of the hardware in the past roughly 4 years or so already more or less has that capability, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal either way for those who really want to upgrade. This is really a lesser version, a minor inconvenience at best in the grand scheme of things, of something like Apple moving from RISC to Intel, or Intel to M2. I suspect within a few years we'll even forget about the TPM thing.

[zzip]

2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I get that, but I suppose one could argue that gaming was and always has been built around addiction, e.g., getting a higher score than last time, reaching that next level, completing that mission, collecting all the rubarb, etc. And one could also argue that the difference now versus in the past is that instead of paying all of your money up front, you pay it over time (although, of course, arcade games were the original microtransactions!).

Yes addiction has always been a factor,  but it's been really ampped in many of these mobile games.   It's like they implemented all the secrets that casino operators learned over the years to keep people playing, short of the "attractive waitresses bringing you free alcoholic drinks" trick.

[leech]

39 minutes ago, zzip said:

Yes addiction has always been a factor,  but it's been really ampped in many of these mobile games.   It's like they implemented all the secrets that casino operators learned over the years to keep people playing, short of the "attractive waitresses bringing you free alcoholic drinks" trick.

Yup!  I mean it was one thing back in the day to pump in quarters for extra lives to play the game you want to play.

The mobile games tend to be that you either pay money, pay by watching ads, or you can play for 'free' (still with embedded ads) but only once per day/hour/etc.

Obviously there are always exceptions, but I noticed that Humble Bundle hasn't done an Android one in a long long time...

[zzip]

13 minutes ago, leech said:

Yup!  I mean it was one thing back in the day to pump in quarters for extra lives to play the game you want to play.

Right, but that was also self-limiting.  You'd run out of quarters and you have to get to the arcade in the first place (which may or may not be conveniently located).   These games could be played with a linked credit card from the comfort of your home and potentially do a lot more damage.

[leech]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

From what I understand Valve isn't relying on more Linux games ports as much as they are relying on 'Proton' to get Windows-native games running well under Linux on the Steam Deck-

Bit of both.  I think they are hoping to get performance good enough, but maybe... just maybe some studios will put more effort in clicking that 'export to Linux' for some better framerate.

The terrible thing is Battleeye has had a Linux native version for a few years now... but as there are not any Linux native games that use it, no one really pays attention to it.  What Valve did was to get them to make it work under Proton.

[leech]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Potentially, but for those people who can't upgrade, Windows 10 will still work fine for quite a while. All new hardware will be Windows 11-enabled by default. It's also my understanding that much of the hardware in the past roughly 4 years or so already more or less has that capability, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal either way for those who really want to upgrade. This is really a lesser version, a minor inconvenience at best in the grand scheme of things, of something like Apple moving from RISC to Intel, or Intel to M2. I suspect within a few years we'll even forget about the TPM thing.

It is mostly a big deal for the amount of people who lost jobs during the last bit of the world turning to poo.  Wouldn't it suck for some app, like say Teams... to be required for remote job interviews, but MS changes the requirement to Windows 11 for the 'free' version?

[Matt_B]

3 hours ago, leech said:

It is mostly a big deal for the amount of people who lost jobs during the last bit of the world turning to poo.  Wouldn't it suck for some app, like say Teams... to be required for remote job interviews, but MS changes the requirement to Windows 11 for the 'free' version?

Er... Teams is a cross-platform application with clients for Android, Linux, MacOS, iOS and indeed anything with a web browser. Just use one of those. ?

 

While I'm sure they'll want to drive Windows 11 adoption by various means, including offering exclusive features and free upgrades, I doubt they'll be prepared to burn their boats in another sector to do so. There's about as much chance of that as Google making YouTube an Android 12 exclusive.

 

8 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Potentially, but for those people who can't upgrade, Windows 10 will still work fine for quite a while. All new hardware will be Windows 11-enabled by default. It's also my understanding that much of the hardware in the past roughly 4 years or so already more or less has that capability, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal either way for those who really want to upgrade. This is really a lesser version, a minor inconvenience at best in the grand scheme of things, of something like Apple moving from RISC to Intel, or Intel to M2. I suspect within a few years we'll even forget about the TPM thing.

Yeah, TPM 2.0 is a complete and utter non-issue. Every Intel and AMD CPU made since the beginning of 2016 has it, although some setting in the BIOS may be required to turn it on. Anything prior to that will be a decade old when Windows 10 finally hits end-of-life. It'll still probably be getting critical updates for much longer too; Windows 7 still is, after all.

 

That said, there are a lot of fairly recent CPUs that don't make the support list, for other undisclosed reasons, including some that feature in machines that are still being sold. Interestingly, that would appear to include the VCS as the R1606G isn't on there. Ah well, I suppose that's what you get for buying a bottom rung PC from some no-name manufacturer. ?

 

[leech]

55 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

Er... Teams is a cross-platform application with clients for Android, Linux, MacOS, iOS and indeed anything with a web browser. Just use one of those.

Sure... for now... also, wow do all of them suck... I ended up using a Styles plugin for Firefox to deal with it's terribleness.  The Linux version is still 'Preview' even after it being out for like 2 years...

Anyhow my comment wasn't about the current state about it, but a 'What If?' scenario.  I mainly mentioned Teams because of dealing with it's broken behaviors of the last few days (in which I find that microsoft.com actually blocks the back button from working in Firefox... usually only shady ass sites do that...)

[leech]

1 hour ago, Matt_B said:

That said, there are a lot of fairly recent CPUs that don't make the support list, for other undisclosed reasons, including some that feature in machines that are still being sold. Interestingly, that would appear to include the VCS as the R1606G isn't on there. Ah well, I suppose that's what you get for buying a bottom rung PC from some no-name manufacturer. ?

Well, TPM can be integrated in either the CPU or onto the motherboard.  no idea if the VCS supports it, but then I am odd and wonder why people would put Windows on it anyhow, when it runs Debian amazingly well.  ?

[justclaws]

13 hours ago, leech said:

Well, TPM can be integrated in either the CPU or onto the motherboard.  no idea if the VCS supports it, but then I am odd and wonder why people would put Windows on it anyhow, when it runs Debian amazingly well.  ?

For reference, yes, the VCS has TPM 2.0 as required for Windows 11. It was discussed in a previous thread, also.
The VCS does indeed work great as a Linux system, be it Debian, or Ubuntu and Fedora which I tested and use with it.
 

[Matt_B]

2 hours ago, leech said:

Sure... for now... also, wow do all of them suck... I ended up using a Styles plugin for Firefox to deal with it's terribleness.  The Linux version is still 'Preview' even after it being out for like 2 years...

Anyhow my comment wasn't about the current state about it, but a 'What If?' scenario.  I mainly mentioned Teams because of dealing with it's broken behaviors of the last few days (in which I find that microsoft.com actually blocks the back button from working in Firefox... usually only shady ass sites do that...)

At this point, I'm surprised you can even sleep at night for fear that Satya Nadella might arrive in an invisible helicopter and force you to upgrade all your PCs at gunpoint. ?

 

1 hour ago, leech said:

Well, TPM can be integrated in either the CPU or onto the motherboard.  no idea if the VCS supports it, but then I am odd and wonder why people would put Windows on it anyhow, when it runs Debian amazingly well.  ?

I'm not sure why I'm even responding because you clearly paid no attention to what I've typed, but TPM 2.0 is not the problem. All Ryzen CPUs have it built in, so there's no need for anything on the motherboard.

 

Rather, the R1606G isn't on the support list for some other unspecified reason. If I had to hazard a guess, it'd be because it's mainly aimed at the embedded market and not something that you'd expect to find in a mainstream desktop or laptop. Windows 11 can still be installed, as it can on many other unsupported CPUs including ones without TPM, but it won't necessarily continue to received updates unless it's respectively added to the support list at a later date. Microsoft recommend against this, so I guess that means you should probably do it. ?

Again, not that you'll care, but reasons why someone might want to run Windows on their living room PC might access to streaming services like Netflix above 720p, running native games including from storefronts (GamePass, Epic, Origin, etc.) that don't support Linux at all except via very hacky solutions, and a bunch of high quality emulators (SSF, Cemu, Project 64) that, again, have no Linux ports. That's all on Windows 10, mind you, so there's no pressing need for upgrade.

 

[leech]

2 hours ago, Matt_B said:

I'm not sure why I'm even responding because you clearly paid no attention to what I've typed, but TPM 2.0 is not the problem. All Ryzen CPUs have it built in, so there's no need for anything on the motherboard.

 

Rather, the R1606G isn't on the support list for some other unspecified reason. If I had to hazard a guess, it'd be because it's mainly aimed at the embedded market and not something that you'd expect to find in a mainstream desktop or laptop. Windows 11 can still be installed, as it can on many other unsupported CPUs including ones without TPM, but it won't necessarily continue to received updates unless it's respectively added to the support list at a later date. Microsoft recommend against this, so I guess that means you should probably do it. ?

Again, not that you'll care, but reasons why someone might want to run Windows on their living room PC might access to streaming services like Netflix above 720p, running native games including from storefronts (GamePass, Epic, Origin, etc.) that don't support Linux at all except via very hacky solutions, and a bunch of high quality emulators (SSF, Cemu, Project 64) that, again, have no Linux ports. That's all on Windows 10, mind you, so there's no pressing need for upgrade.

Uhm, probably because the list isn't all encompassing?  Probably because you can either have it included in the CPU or as a module on the motherboard?  Did you just skip over what Justclaws  said about the VCS supporting TPM2.0?

 

You know there are ways to watch Netflix above 720p on Linux.  You know there are ways to run almost any thing else on Linux?  You know that even the Epic Anti-Cheat and Battleeye are getting Proton support?  They aren't very hacky solutions at all, Epic officially supports it now, as does Battleeye.  Literally the developer just has to check a box saying 'yes, I'd like my game to run on the Steam Deck.'  Doesn't Gamepass basically run on the VCS already?  Origin works fine under Proton, as I've used it myself.

 

There pretty much is very rapidly being zero reason to run Windows on a living room PC.  Also... why the hell Netflix on a PC anyhow, like every console / smart tv or stream stick supports it...

 

2 hours ago, Matt_B said:

At this point, I'm surprised you can even sleep at night for fear that Satya Nadella might arrive in an invisible helicopter and force you to upgrade all your PCs at gunpoint.

Ha, you know that Microsoft now has their own Linux distribution?  You know that Windows has basically just become some analytic gathering thing now, right?  Hell you can run it in your browser at this point if you need to.  Also, Windows 11 has so many bugs right now, I'd recommend, if you really want to go down that path, to not install it for a year until they sort it out...

 

[leech]

5 hours ago, justclaws said:

For reference, yes, the VCS has TPM 2.0 as required for Windows 11. It was discussed in a previous thread, also.
The VCS does indeed work great as a Linux system, be it Debian, or Ubuntu and Fedora which I tested and use with it.
 

Thanks, figured it would have it, just wasn't quite sure.  I haven't had the urge to log into the bios and dig around to find it or not.  I pretty much figure everything that's been made in the past 3-5 years likely either has one, or has a firmware update that could add the capability in.  The problem is that with the world the way it is, the chip shortages, unemployment, etc, a whole lot of people won't be able to afford upgrading their hardware.  And the 'free' upgrade to Windows 11 could make their computer unsupported, or perform terribly, etc.  And since MS was more or less forced to push out updates (not saying that they'll force the upgrade to Windows 11, but it wouldn't be shocking if they did) that there is that potential of them basically bricking lower end hardware. 

 

You use Fedora?  How are you liking it?  Seems every time I try it out, it works great for a while, but since it's not really what most would consider a 'stable' distribution (it's meant for testing new things for RH afterall (at least it was until the whole CentOS Stream thing...)) I end up having to swap it for Debian Sid (funny as it's the very definition of unstable) because of one weird update or another.  Outside of distributions that are considered rolling ones, Fedora seems to be the only one that'll start it's release with one kernel... and you end up with a new one by the end of it's run...

[Matt_B]

2 minutes ago, leech said:

Uhm, probably because the list isn't all encompassing?  Probably because you can either have it included in the CPU or as a module on the motherboard?  Did you just skip over what Justclaws  said about the VCS supporting TPM2.0?

Having TPM 2.0 by itself is not sufficient.

 

The point you seem to be constantly missing is that you need it enabled and a CPU that's on the support list. All the compatible CPUs already have TPM 2.0 built in so the the requirement is just to turn it on in the BIOS. You do not need to add it as a module to your motherboard unless you're working in some corporate hellhole that requires it for other reasons.

 

For reference, here's the support list:

 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

 

The R1606G is not on there, and that is why the VCS isn't compatible with Windows 11.

 

 

 

[leech]

1 hour ago, Matt_B said:

Having TPM 2.0 by itself is not sufficient.

 

The point you seem to be constantly missing is that you need it enabled and a CPU that's on the support list. All the compatible CPUs already have TPM 2.0 built in so the the requirement is just to turn it on in the BIOS. You do not need to add it as a module to your motherboard unless you're working in some corporate hellhole that requires it for other reasons.

 

For reference, here's the support list:

 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

 

The R1606G is not on there, and that is why the VCS isn't compatible with Windows 11.

 

 

 

Do you work for Microsoft?  Unless you do, you don't know, the lists are never going to cover everything.  They're especially not going to list embedded systems.  Anyone on the forums attempted to install Windows 11 on the VCS?  If I gave two shits about it, I would, but I don't.  The VCS for me is a Linux system, and mine will never run Windows as I do not see a reason for it.  My question was about others who might.  As justclaws stated, there is already another thread about it.  So I'll leave it at that.

 

I think the point you also seem to be constantly missing is that the requirements as stated have been TPM2.0.  I haven't seen anything that was like 'oh my god, you need ONLY THESE CPUs, as having the TPM Module on the motherboard side also constitutes as having it.  At least to get proper support.  Sure there are plenty of motherboards out there that have the capability of TPM2.0 modules without having the actual module, and sure there are corporations that may require that, but I doubt it.  The TPM modules have been basically pointless until now.

 

Edit:

There you have it, VCS meets the requirements of Windows 11, so your point is moot.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by leech

[Matt_B]

It's good that it'll work, but that's entirely due to support for the CPU being added. I see they just dropped a load of Intel's embedded ones on site, so the AMD ones are presumably done too, just not updated yet.

 

However, TPM is still a red herring and will do nothing for a system with a CPU that's unsupported, while all the supported CPUs have it built in and just need it turning on. If you've got a Zen 1 or a 6th generation Intel, you're still out of luck. Unless, of course, they get added and you try to quote me out of context for another gotcha.

 

Motherboard TPM modules are still only relevant for really old CPUs that want to use enterprise security like Sophos. If you're lucky enough to never encounter one, that's great. I'm in no hurry to.

 

Anyway, congrats. You win. I've had more productive arguments with brick walls, so that's my last word on the subject. ?

[leech]

25 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

It's good that it'll work, but that's entirely due to support for the CPU being added. I see they just dropped a load of Intel's embedded ones on site, so the AMD ones are presumably done too, just not updated yet.

 

However, TPM is still a red herring and will do nothing for a system with a CPU that's unsupported, while all the supported CPUs have it built in and just need it turning on. If you've got a Zen 1 or a 6th generation Intel, you're still out of luck. Unless, of course, they get added and you try to quote me out of context for another gotcha.

 

Motherboard TPM modules are still only relevant for really old CPUs that want to use enterprise security like Sophos. If you're lucky enough to never encounter one, that's great. I'm in no hurry to.

 

Anyway, congrats. You win. I've had more productive arguments with brick walls, so that's my last word on the subject. ?

Wasn't about winning.  The OS won't care if the TPM is showing up from the CPU or if it is a module added to the motherboard.  That was my point.  Their supported CPU list won't ever include all of the possible hardware combinations that the OS will detect as being sufficient for the requirements.  that was the whole point I think you failed to miss that I was trying to state.  Windows tuns on a ton of different pieces of hardware.  Wether it runs well or not is another discussion entirely...

 

But it isn't like arguments in general are productive.  ?

[SegaMasterSystemPunk]

Very self-repair friendly attitude from Valve! That alone makes me want to get the thing!

 

[zzip]

18 hours ago, leech said:

You use Fedora?  How are you liking it?  Seems every time I try it out, it works great for a while, but since it's not really what most would consider a 'stable' distribution (it's meant for testing new things for RH afterall (at least it was until the whole CentOS Stream thing...)) I end up having to swap it for Debian Sid (funny as it's the very definition of unstable) because of one weird update or another.  Outside of distributions that are considered rolling ones, Fedora seems to be the only one that'll start it's release with one kernel... and you end up with a new one by the end of it's run...

I used to use Fedora since I was in the Redhat ecosystem since the 90s.   But Fedora annoyed me one too many times.   I don't remember the exact issue, but I did have lots of issues of things being broken on that distro.   Ended up switching to Ubuntu since that's what we use at work these days.

[leech]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

I used to use Fedora since I was in the Redhat ecosystem since the 90s.   But Fedora annoyed me one too many times.   I don't remember the exact issue, but I did have lots of issues of things being broken on that distro.   Ended up switching to Ubuntu since that's what we use at work these days.

That has been my experience with Fedora as well, every time I have used it... Ubuntu has too much of the NIH problem, so I tend to use others.

[leech]

For those worried about having limited space on the Steam Deck.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi0-hRSd2Uw