The Pre-Final Fantasy VII Era of Turn-Based RPGs (1982-1997)

[electricmastro]

I was looking back at older turn-based/JRPGs and couldn’t help but notice how experimental and weird they could get, with a successful one being a rarity. Developers seemed like they were trying anything they could in figuring out what did and didn’t work, when the genre was more niche and from before Final Fantasy VII helped give the genre considerable more notice and chance for decent success in America. I was interested in knowing what your thoughts on the era were, how different it feels compared to today’s RPGs, and the overall feeling of the games coming out during that time, of which include:

 

Dragonstomper (Atari 2600)

Phantasy Star (SMS)

Dragon Warrior (NES)

Final Fantasy (NES)

Destiny of an Emperor (NES)

Ghost Lion (NES)

Cosmic Fantasy 2 (Turbo CD)

Dragon Slayer: The Legend of Heroes (Turbo CD)

Great Greed (Game Boy)

The 7th Saga (SNES)

Paladin’s Quest (SNES)

Lufia & the Fortress of Doom (SNES)

Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD)

Vay (Sega CD)

Breath of Fire (SNES)

Robotrek (SNES)

EarthBound (SNES)

Secret of the Stars (SNES)

Chrono Trigger (SNES)

Lucienne’s Quest (3DO)

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (SNES)

Beyond the Beyond (PlayStation)

Revelations: Persona (PlayStation)

Suikoden (PlayStation)

Wild Arms (PlayStation)

Albert Odyssey: Legend of Eldean (Saturn)

[Mikebloke]

It's my favourite nostalgic genre, I say that in the sense that while I'd play for hours on end as a child, I can't get into it anywhere near as much these days. Retro themed rpgs don't do much for me either. Often I find myself digging back into something like secret of mana, chrono trigger, phantasy star shining force etc, but not really going much further even in terms of the genre I haven't seen. A lot of experimental stuff from Japan was seen to be too radical for America, which means by extension no chance of seeing Europe either. Its still maddening to think that games like panzer dragoon saga had something like a 3,000 Europe print run and a 9,000 North America run, and I got one of those 3,000 as a birthday present. 

 

New rpgs I can't get into. I think tales of Symphonia is a beautiful game, a game 'you should play before you die', every game since in the series feels like a carbon copy. Final fantasy since 13 seems to have been going downhill, and I include the 7 remake in that, a masterpiece chopped up into bits and now with a beat em up system. And this is where I'll get to my point. 

 

The rpg market outside Japan is largely centered for a US audience, that's fine its the largest market, the most profitable, etc. With PS2 I think you saw the new age of rpgs, with things like morrowind popping on the xbox as well, 'western rpgs' started to take over and grab more casual, non rpg gamers. It's been great and we've seen many conversions now to this semi-rpg like status. Think about it, we have traditional dungeon crawlers like elderscrolls turn to hack and slash, fallout got turned to a shooter, action adventure has turned into open world, borderlands is a shooter that's akin to a rogue-like with its billion guns to pick up (I couldn't play more than an hour of it!) 

 

The genre has changed, and there is some very nice story based games which use rpg elements in it, but how I remember it is gone. Its my nostalgia bug that probably holds me back. 

 

 

[Tanooki]

I think you're giving FFVII more credit than it deserves.  The SNES era really normalized RPGs because most of what they ironed out mid-late life in that hardware rolled into the 3D space and beyond since.  Sure there was a lot of trial and error, but between what Enix, Square, Namco and few others really dug out (like Natsume, Capcom) what worked remained and what didn't mostly died out as bad ideas.  You can see this growth even with those second tier developers of JRPGs like Capcom and Natsume with Breath of Fire 1 to 2 and Lufia 1 to 2 too.  There are some lacking, slow, stiff, questionable designs the firsts have, and you see the large levels of refinement that smoothed out things learning what worked and not.  Few were ahead of that curve, such as Square with FF2 early on in 1991/92, and overseas Enix with Dragon Quest titles but thats because they learned so much in the 8bit times.

[Mikebloke]

10 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

I think you're giving FFVII more credit than it deserves.  The SNES era really normalized RPGs because most of what they ironed out mid-late life in that hardware rolled into the 3D space and beyond since.  Sure there was a lot of trial and error, but between what Enix, Square, Namco and few others really dug out (like Natsume, Capcom) what worked remained and what didn't mostly died out as bad ideas.  You can see this growth even with those second tier developers of JRPGs like Capcom and Natsume with Breath of Fire 1 to 2 and Lufia 1 to 2 too.  There are some lacking, slow, stiff, questionable designs the firsts have, and you see the large levels of refinement that smoothed out things learning what worked and not.  Few were ahead of that curve, such as Square with FF2 early on in 1991/92, and overseas Enix with Dragon Quest titles but thats because they learned so much in the 8bit times.

There was probably a few phases if we look into it deeply:

 

1) The idea of the consolised RPG, games like Dragonstomper, Adventure, D&D games on 2600 and Intellivision

2) The NES era and the Master System response. Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Zelda. This was hit back by Sega doing Phantasy Star and various ports of other games, like Ys and Miracle Warriors.

3) 16 bit revolution: Continuation of Phantasy Star, Final Fantasy, wilder expression of RPGs which I think OP is referencing. Some of these games start to switch out turn based systems for more active ones, action-RPG becomes a genre in itself and splits away from the Castlevania/Faxanadu type games on the NES and Master System, SNES has a lot of these like Terranigma, Secret of Mana, Illusion of Time. We also got deeper stories with much more text, exploration, graphics and sound.

4) The 32 bit Golden age: Yes, it had Final Fantasy 7 (and 8 and 9!) and Sega had its response with games like Shining Force 3 and Panzer Dragoon Saga, but Konami was pushing RPGS as a publisher hard! Vandal Hearts, Suikoden, Azure Dreams, Legend of Kartia, Square got some others out as well such as Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve. We were still at a time where RPGs were cheap to make - ie: no voice overs! Some pre-rendered video footage to help the imagination, but it was short and sweet. New graphical capabilities for effects and CD quality sound.

5) The blending: While RPGs have always been a fluid genre up to this point, the PS2/X Box era is definitely where the fusion starts working in the other genre's favour. The new expectation of having voice overs for games definitely influences the ability to push out these games in my honest opinion, it also makes localisations a lot harder (though to be fair, few go further than Japanese and English).

 

I personally have a soft spot for phase 4 because it was the point in which I had disposable income and the means to grab games before the internet ruined everything for everyone, but a lot of that groundwork was done in phase 3 and a lot of the early stuff from Saturn and PS1 to be honest might have been better off releasing on cart after all...!

[Tanooki]

Phase 2-4 are the soft spot for the most benefit really depending on tastes, no real good argument against that much.  Do agree, a good number of those games on phase3 would have benefit from a cart definitely.

[7800Knight]

I loved the first Final Fantasy games (6 is my favorite), all four Dragon Warriors on NES and all the Phantasy Star Games on Genesis.

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

There are western turn based rpgs in consoles and PC. Betrayal at Krondor comes to mind.

[+GoldenWheels]

My thought is, why has no one remade Final Lap Twin and World Court Tennis? I wish there were more RPG style games like that.

[electricmastro]

Games like Cosmic Fantasy 2 stick out to me in the sense of presentation. It was probably the first turn-based RPG released in the US to have Japanese/anime-styled artwork on the cover, though only on the back cover. It’s inconsistent when looking at the front cover of the same game, which features decidedly more Westernized artwork in-tune with what was common on US game covers at the time.

[Tanooki]

CF2 was definitely that. I bought that back in the era for the duo I had and I put plenty of time into it. Pretty sure finished too but so long after now I don’t remember much of anything sadly. 
 

Lunar qualifies too. Did you know the older sega cd version has a six dollar download on the apple shop?  Same peddler has Vay for sega ce too for a dollar.  It’s quite nice. The fit this mold too. 

[electricmastro]

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Lunar qualifies too. Did you know the older sega cd version has a six dollar download on the apple shop?  Same peddler has Vay for sega ce too for a dollar.  It’s quite nice. The fit this mold too. 

Yeah, December, 1993 both had Lunar and Lufia, which showed more anime-style covers:

 

 

[Tanooki]

It's strange, I pick away at Vay slowly, but despite it being the 'lesser' version people tend to moan about, I really do feel I should grab Lunar too for iOS.  I mean I have Complete on PS1, but this is so more accessible anywhere.

[+Black_Tiger]

Vay is a solid game and worth playing through every so often. The WD version makes some boss battles take forever though.

 

I played through every 8 and 16-bit JRPG I could get my hands on bitd. Lufia was one of the few that was not fun enough to the point that I stopped playing part way through.

 

I had to mute the TV because of the battle bgm, but it was an overall feeling that everything was a misguided attempt at a "me too" JRPG that was designed by someone who didn't get them.

 

I bought Lufia II once I found it for under $100 and enjoyed what I played of it. But by then I had access to almost every 16 and 32-bit RPG and it was hard to stick to SNES games.

 

 

 

On 7/22/2021 at 3:36 PM, electricmastro said:

It was probably the first turn-based RPG released in the US to have Japanese/anime-styled artwork on the cover, though only on the back cover.

Those are just screenshots from the game. Games like the Dragon Warriors and Phantasy Stars also had it.

 

Working Designs was infamous for games being delayed so long that many missed the generation altogether (like Cosmic Fantasy 3).

 

By the time Cosmic Fantasy finally shipped, Super CD games (like Dragon Slayer with actual anime artwork on the back) were available (months before the TurboDuo launch).

 

 

[Mayhem]

Well you've completely ignored the huge number of computer based RPGs (not just consoles) from that era, including early Wizardry, Questron, Altenate Reality, Bard's Tale, SSI AD&D gold box series and many more, and the hundreds that were released exclusively in Japan for machines that barely made the West.

 

(not Ultima as that wasn't strictly turn based)

[Tanooki]

@Black_Tiger Vay seems fine so far, good dollar spent on ios.  And I agree about Lufia, at least the first, same exactly with Breath of Fire 1.  Both are pretty poorly done, stiff, boring, slogs to get around and in combat, fairly as you said, me-too in a bad way.  The sequels though really turn the franchises around and are definitely learning from all the crap mistakes to make a good game finally after a failed try hard start.

 

...and ignoring computer based WRPGs was the point, JRPGs are not the same and this was also about console gaming too with that, which is what I think this is about here

[electricmastro]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:12 AM, Tanooki said:

It's strange, I pick away at Vay slowly, but despite it being the 'lesser' version people tend to moan about, I really do feel I should grab Lunar too for iOS.  I mean I have Complete on PS1, but this is so more accessible anywhere.

Vay is pretty memorable for its music if nothing else.

 

 

[DragonGrafx-16]

The only turn based RPG I could really get into recently was a modern one: Divinity Original Sin 2 and even that series is a modern take on Shining Force or Final Fantasy Tactics gameplay. I just despise the dancing around party based JRPG combat that was the norm back then. Even though I was really into Pokemon at first and that is essentially the same type of gameplay as a typical JRPG but with one on one (at first) battles where you could switch out the one that was fighting, lol am I really explaining Pokemon? But anyway, everyone was into that series back then (and many still are). 

Edited July 31, 2021 by DragonGrafx-16

[7800Knight]

Anyone remember Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord?

 

I played the NES game and it was very hard.  But if you are willing to put some time into it, it can be a good game.  Having a walkthrough can help.

 

"Cheap apostates!  Out!"

 

On another note, this game as well as the Wizardry series in general was popular in Japan and influenced their own RPG development.

 

 

[Tanooki]

I've never actually played that franchise, looked kind of rough and wordy as a kid.  The thing is, by now, seems to dated for me to bother, yet more recent entries out of Japan look amazing, and latest ones have been english translated and GoG even hosts 1-2 of those.  It seems like a fantastic series, just not for the weak, since it's not friendly to those who can't play at a hard level at stuff like this, at least the early ones.  I'm imaging the later stuff likely has been for a less nice way to say it, been dumbed down, to be more accessible which probably isn't the worst.

I looked at gog, I think this is the newest since it's a 2020 release: https://www.gog.com/game/wizardry_labyrinth_of_lost_souls

They also host older titles too.

Wizardry 6+7 combo pack: https://www.gog.com/game/wizardry_6_7

Wizarddry 8: https://www.gog.com/game/wizardry_8

 

I just noticed looking at dates, they do take a long time between general releases to pop up:  6+7 seem pretty back to back in 1990 when the franchise was more active.  #8 is in 2001~, and the other new one is 2020.  Pretty big gaps, but maybe more just were not translated.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Tanooki

[newtmonkey]

Not only do I remember Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, but I completed it (along with Wiz 2, 3, and 5) within the past few years.  It was not on NES but on DOS, though.

 

Wiz1 and Wiz5, in particular, have aged very well.  They are both balanced very well, and by the time you completely map one dungeon level your party will almost always be just around the proper level to explore the next level.  If you pay attention while playing, you really start to see the numbers operating in the background; at that point, excluding cases of extremely poor luck, any losses you suffer are your own fault.  Defeating Werdna with my ragtag band of heroes, then bringing those same losers into Wiz2, Wiz3, then Wiz5 was one of the best gaming experience I've ever had.

[Steven Pendleton]

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has mentioned Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei. It's one of the earlier (the earliest?) monster-catching games. I wonder if there were any monster-catching RPGs before it. Either way, Megami Tensei is perhaps one of the single most important RPGs ever, as it's entirely possible that it had some influence on Pokemon, which is of course the single highest-grossing multimedia thing to ever exist.

 

Speaking of Pokemon, that is also a turn-based RPG that predates Final Fantasy VII. Red and Green are of course the start of the above-mentioned highest-grossing multimedia thing ever to exist.

[youxia]

On 7/17/2021 at 8:31 PM, electricmastro said:

I was looking back at older turn-based/JRPGs and couldn’t help but notice how experimental and weird they could get, with a successful one being a rarity. Developers seemed like they were trying anything they could in figuring out what did and didn’t work, when the genre was more niche and from before Final Fantasy VII helped give the genre considerable more notice and chance for decent success in America.

The list which follows is not really all that "weird and experimental". Most of these games were already following some established tropes. The weirdness was happening on Japanese PC machines in the proto stage, well before NES. Later on Ultima and Wizardry arrived, and were hugely influential for the turn-based branch, and perhaps even more popular than in the West. Japanese devs have also started mixing action elements in, with Tower Of Druaga being a bit hit and influencing others.

 

But after that formative period, it all has pretty much boiled down to one template for TB jRPGs (action ones are a bit more varied). There might be some slight variations in combat systems, and games being more or less linear, but they are pretty much the same, to this day (consider the likes of Ni No Kuni or Bravely Default. And Wizardry was still going on there, last I checked). And so was FF 7, not at all much different from the earlier jRPGs games gameplay wise. It was "just" a very good entry in an already famous series. It had super high production values, what with some 3D elements and bombastic FMV, and rode the PSX wave sky high.

 

 

[electricmastro]

8 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has mentioned Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei. It's one of the earlier (the earliest?) monster-catching games. I wonder if there were any monster-catching RPGs before it. Either way, Megami Tensei is perhaps one of the single most important RPGs ever, as it's entirely possible that it had some influence on Pokemon, which is of course the single highest-grossing multimedia thing to ever exist.

 

Speaking of Pokemon, that is also a turn-based RPG that predates Final Fantasy VII. Red and Green are of course the start of the above-mentioned highest-grossing multimedia thing ever to exist.

I was focusing mainly on America, but yeah, Megami Tensei is also an early notable example.

 

 

[Steven Pendleton]

4 minutes ago, electricmastro said:

I was focusing mainly on America, but yeah, Megami Tensei is also an early notable example.

 

 

I did forget to mention that I was thinking only of the Namco(t) Famicom version and not the other one that was made by... um, someone that I forgot (lol) on some computer. Probably MSX or something. Anyway, Namco(t) one is the important one. The other one really isn't all that noteworthy other than that I believe that the MSX (?) version was released before the Famicom version was.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Steven Pendleton

[electricmastro]

Destiny of an Emperor always stood out to me for the way it was presented, as if Capcom was attempting to use imagery similar to that of Koei’s strategy games to help this RPG gain more recognition:

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by electricmastro