Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[JagChris]

30 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

...it's a shame...

I think this kinda sums up the entire story of how Atari handled nearly every aspect of the Jag.

[Pete5125]

33 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Actually it would have been huge imo. SSF2T sold like 200k on 3DO I remember reading, I dont know how many months that was after launch, but that's already more than what the Jaguar sold and close to what was produced.

 

MK3 sold over a million copies on other systems, and MKT which was the final version of 3, sold like 3 million across PS1 and N64.

 

Having any sort of exclusive, or timed exclusive would have worked out for Atari. Imo it's a shame they didn't get MK3 out regardless. 

Being the only system to not have, the 2 hotest games on the planet at that point was a death nail.  Granted they would have to be of the quality of nba jam.  But if meant loosing exclusives like Supercross 3d or fight for life, would be well worth it.

[ataritiger]

I like fight for life but like nba jam te too. Needed ssf2turbo and a castlevania game. 

https://ideas.fandom.com/wiki/Atari_Jaguar_Mini

 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

44 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Actually it would have been huge imo. SSF2T sold like 200k on 3DO I remember reading, I dont know how many months that was after launch, but that's already more than what the Jaguar sold and close to what was produced.

 

MK3 sold over a million copies on other systems, and MKT which was the final version of 3, sold like 3 million across PS1 and N64.

I think you misunderstood my comment - we're in agreement there  I was just saying that I've seen many comment over the years that they thought that those games wouldn't have made much of a difference for Atari's fortunes. I'm in agreement with you that they would have helped, but how many units it might have help move is something we'll never know. Timing is also important on when these ports would appear.

 

Atari needed stuff that could sell systems. They had that to a degree with AvP and a lesser one on T2k. But in the case of the PS1 and other systems, most people bought those consoles for other games, then having MK or SSF was a nice addition and easy to add to the collection.

 

Quote

Having any sort of exclusive, or timed exclusive would have worked out for Atari. Imo it's a shame they didn't get MK3 out regardless. 

Rayman was originally supposed to be an exclusive, then I think it turned to timed, then it came out on the PS1 first, or something along those lines. Unfortunately for Atari, devs knew by 1995 that the console was a flop, so why bother with exclusives if they had a big money-printing game? 

 

Now if Atari had managed to get the first or second MK on as a 1993 launch title, that'd have made some waves. 

[ataritiger]

Avp helped it sell almost 85,000 to 100,000 so avp2 maybe 50 000 more and ssf2turbo and mk3 maybe 100 000 more it would have been a great low budget next system like f4l 2 etc maybe segas lawsuit of virtua fighter vracing would helped too...

[+madman]

12 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Now if Atari had managed to get the first or second MK on as a 1993 launch title, that'd have made some waves. 

Yeah, MK with a 3 button controller would've made huge waves. Maybe they could've made bigger waves by making all the punch and kick buttons use the keypad.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

AvP2 was slated for the CD, so while that might have helped CD unit sales, it's hard to say if it would have really moved both new base units & CD ones to the tune that Atari needed. Of course, if the JagDuo had come around, then AvP2 as a pack-in would've been a great buy. Although if BI/WN had come out and was able to live up to it's promises, I think that would've really helped the CD, possibly the system itself to some degree. 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

3 minutes ago, madman said:

Yeah, MK with a 3 button controller would've made huge waves. Maybe they could've made bigger waves by making all the punch and kick buttons use the keypad.

From the Mortal Kombat manual on the Genesis

Edited August 1, 2021 by Shaggy the Atarian

[+madman]

Yeah and that was a disaster of a setup back then as well. The difference is the Genesis was already a popular system. Spending $250 to play MK on a new system with another 3 button controller would have made zero sense. I don't know why people can't just admit Atari made huge mistakes with the Jaguar and need to make up fantasies about what would've saved it. Appreciate it for what it is, the good games it had and the current homebrew scene.

[Leeroy ST]

20 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

Avp helped it sell almost 85,000 to 100,000 so avp2 maybe 50 000 more and ssf2turbo and mk3 maybe 100 000 more it would have been a great low budget next system like f4l 2 etc maybe segas lawsuit of virtua fighter vracing would helped too...

The only documentation I've seen for AVP is around 50-000+ in sales, issue was that they couldn't produce enough cartridges for AVPs success to matter.

 

31 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

 

 

Rayman was originally supposed to be an exclusive, then I think it turned to timed, then it came out on the PS1 first, or something along those lines. Unfortunately for Atari, devs knew by 1995 that the console was a flop, so why bother with exclusives if they had a big money-printing game? 

 

Now if Atari had managed to get the first or second MK on as a 1993 launch title, that'd have made some waves. 

Considering the story of Raymans removed moves and the CD Audio creation, I dont think Rayman was a locked exclusive. I believe that Rayman was being made for the Jag and once PS dev kits got to Ubisoft, they decided to add those platforms. I dont think by early 95 Ubisoft abruptly decided to jump ship.

 

52 minutes ago, Pete5125 said:

Being the only system to not have, the 2 hotest games on the planet at that point was a death nail.  Granted they would have to be of the quality of nba jam.  But if meant loosing exclusives like Supercross 3d or fight for life, would be well worth it.

Fight For Life type game would have still been important by end of 95 or in 96 to grab the 3D fighting novelty craze. Several that were out were not too good, and 3DO only had ballz.

 

 

 

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

As for Ultra Vortek substituting MK3, UK isn't actually had, the problem is Atari had virtually no marketing for the game.

 

MK3 would have sold on name alone,vans would have made a splash with little marketing. Honestly in hindsight the CD add-on was a mistake because they now had to advertise for that, and split the marketing budget for cart games too.

 

Just another reason they should have gone straight cartridge or had CD built in from the start..

 

Atari is notorious for segmenting themselves.

[JagChris]

7 minutes ago, madman said:

Yeah and that was a disaster(exaggeration) of a setup back then as well.  Appreciate it for what it is, the good games it had and the current homebrew scene.

 

Don't tell us what to do. Also while the situation may not have been ideal for Sega and Jag fans it's a decent hold over until a six button controller can be gotten. 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

19 minutes ago, madman said:

Yeah and that was a disaster of a setup back then as well. The difference is the Genesis was already a popular system. Spending $250 to play MK on a new system with another 3 button controller would have made zero sense. I don't know why people can't just admit Atari made huge mistakes with the Jaguar and need to make up fantasies about what would've saved it. Appreciate it for what it is, the good games it had and the current homebrew scene.

Uh huh. It was such a disaster that a lot of the professional reviewers gave it...high marks. Odd thing for EGM to say about the disastrous controls too:

 

 

I never said it should have been the only game on the system, but you're lacking sense yourself if you think that it wouldn't have made any difference to have a big name AAA title on console at launch, as opposed to a no-name crappy shooter and a 3D pod collecting marathon. ?

Edited August 1, 2021 by Shaggy the Atarian

[ataritiger]

15 minutes ago, madman said:

Yeah and that was a disaster of a setup back then as well. The difference is the Genesis was already a popular system. Spending $250 to play MK on a new system with another 3 button controller would have made zero sense. I don't know why people can't just admit Atari made huge mistakes with the Jaguar and need to make up fantasies about what would've saved it. Appreciate it for what it is, the good games it had and the current homebrew scene.

Yet 3do had initial success ? with ssf2t you know paying hundreds play sf2

[ataritiger]

15 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

The only documentation I've seen for AVP is around 50-000+ in sales, issue was that they couldn't produce enough cartridges for AVPs success to matter.

 

Considering the story of Raymans removed moves and the CD Audio creation, I dont think Rayman was a locked exclusive. I believe that Rayman was being made for the Jag and once PS dev kits got to Ubisoft, they decided to add those platforms. I dont think by early 95 Ubisoft abruptly decided to jump ship.

 

Fight For Life type game would have still been important by end of 95 or in 96 to grab the 3D fighting novelty craze. Several that were out were not too good, and 3DO only had ballz.

?

Alien vs Predator received critical acclaim when it was released, with critics praising its atmosphere, graphics and single-player campaign, garnered multiple awards and was referred by various publications as one of the best games for the Jaguar. It was also a commercial success, selling between 52,223-85,000 copies, becoming one of the best-selling games for the system as of July 1995 and regarded as its killer app, though it is unknown how many were sold in total during its lifetime. Atari Corporation had opened discussions with Beyond Games about their interest in developing a sequel to the game, titled Alien vs Predator 2: Annihilation, but dropped out of these negotiations shortly before they officially discontinued the Jaguar

? 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by ataritiger

[Clint Thompson]

1 hour ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Now if Atari had managed to get the first or second MK on as a 1993 launch title, that'd have made some waves. 

 

MK2 would have been one hell of a pack-in title for the end of 1993, could you imagine the outcry lol

 

They could have ran a single full page ad with bold red blood dripping text: "GET OVER HERE!" as a means to come join the Jaguar platform. That's all Atari would have ever needed for a full house.

 

The controversial publicity and uproar over such a violent pack-in would have been enough free advertising to push them into the 21st century and everyone would have wanted it.

Only to then follow it up with Club Drive and Checkered Flag!

[ataritiger]

Checkered flag, the virtua racing graphics with club drive game play;(

[+madman]

20 minutes ago, Clint Thompson said:

 

MK2 would have been one hell of a pack-in title for the end of 1993, could you imagine the outcry lol

 

They could have ran a single full page ad with bold red blood dripping text: "GET OVER HERE!" as a means to come join the Jaguar platform. That's all Atari would have ever needed for a full house.

 

The controversial publicity and uproar over such a violent pack-in would have been enough free advertising to push them into the 21st century and everyone would have wanted it.

Only to then follow it up with Club Drive and Checkered Flag!

It would've been one hell of a miracle too considering MK2 wasn't released on home consoles until the second half of 1994. 

[Agent X]

5 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Since it was mainly built for 2D games though, that's where Atari's focus should have been, building up the momentum there with the likes of Mortal Kombat and other games that could have enjoyed some more notable differences on the hardware, then get the Jag 2 out to handle all the 3D stuff. Granted, they did try that to some degree - if it wasn't for their efforts in that regard we wouldn't have got Rayman or a really good port of NBA Jam, so that was something.

 

I agree, they really should have pushed the Jaguar as a real 2D powerhouse. The problem was that a lot of the top 2D game producers at that time (primarily Japanese developers) wouldn't touch the Jaguar, mainly for business-related reasons which have already been discussed in this thread. If Atari could've gotten companies like Capcom or Konami on board early enough, then it might have turned a lot more heads.

 

[Austin]

Sheesh.. More "armchair historian" BS. Moving on to the next thread.

[+cubanismo]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:10 PM, Leeroy ST said:

Like for example, building sales, several company internal restructurings, layoffs, impact on other divisions, and more. It's not a straightforward situation we are discussing but you're trying to over solyfy things without proper context.

This might speak more to Sony's overreliance on the PlayStation division than the console itself failing in the market. Coming off of the PS2, expectations must have been sky-high. It's fair to say it failed by Sony's measure, but how valid was their perspective?

 

I think the real problem was other parts of Sony were already floundering by this point, and the PS3 was just their last best hope at meeting targets, so they told themselves it was going to work. So yes, similar to Atari and Jaguar in a way, but barely comparable IMHO. After all, Sony still makes consoles.

[Bill Loguidice]

4 hours ago, ataritiger said:

Well jaguar mini coming with avp2 and SSF2 not ssf2t

https://ideas.fandom.com/wiki/Atari_Jaguar_Mini

 

I wonder who came up with that fever dream to troll Jaguar-fandom?

[Draxxon]

3 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Uh huh. It was such a disaster that a lot of the professional reviewers gave it...high marks. Odd thing for EGM to say about the disastrous controls too:

 

 

I never said it should have been the only game on the system, but you're lacking sense yourself if you think that it wouldn't have made any difference to have a big name AAA title on console at launch, as opposed to a no-name crappy shooter and a 3D pod collecting marathon. ?

They are clearly talking about the smoothness of gameplay (control), not the "controllers".

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Draxxon

[ataritiger]

50 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I wonder who came up with that fever dream to troll Jaguar-fandom?

Perhaps it ? was you? I was just hoping it could be true. Like we said just 1 Konami game like Castlevania 95, 1 Capcom game like ssf2turbo, 1 Sega (which legally Sega had to make a Jaguar game maybe virtua racing), 1 Probe MKII Deluxe etc would have went well with the great 10 Jaguar Games like doom, temptest2000, avp, nba jam, wolf3d, rayman etc or my fav fight4life or sequels but either way the jaguar is infamous like dreamcast with so many great things and so many bad things going for it most due to timing, cost and trying stay relevant until ship sank. Actually Atari and Sega went down similarly.

Edited August 2, 2021 by ataritiger

[Leeroy ST]

4 hours ago, ataritiger said:

?

Alien vs Predator received critical acclaim when it was released, with critics praising its atmosphere, graphics and single-player campaign, garnered multiple awards and was referred by various publications as one of the best games for the Jaguar. It was also a commercial success, selling between 52,223-85,000 copies, becoming one of the best-selling games for the system as of July 1995 and regarded as its killer app, though it is unknown how many were sold in total during its lifetime. Atari Corporation had opened discussions with Beyond Games about their interest in developing a sequel to the game, titled Alien vs Predator 2: Annihilation, but dropped out of these negotiations shortly before they officially discontinued the Jaguar

? 

 

You're quite doesn't refute my point. There was some document that leaked that had game sales AVP had 53k or so iirc. Also that's an incredibly large margin for error range.

 

2 hours ago, ataritiger said:

Checkered flag, the virtua racing graphics with club drive game play;(

One. Thing Il give Club Drive is it's one of the best controlling 3D racers on the system. That may not be a compliment.

 

1 hour ago, Agent X said:

 

I agree, they really should have pushed the Jaguar as a real 2D powerhouse. The problem was that a lot of the top 2D game producers at that time (primarily Japanese developers) wouldn't touch the Jaguar, mainly for business-related reasons which have already been discussed in this thread. If Atari could've gotten companies like Capcom or Konami on board early enough, then it might have turned a lot more heads.

 

2D wasn't going to move things at the time, it's competition already had Need For Speed before it was fully available iirc. It's also why Atari kept demanding textures or effects even if the fps dropped to 2.

 

Jaguar would have had come out in 92 for that to work, or panther. Yeah MK3 or SSFT would have done some moves initially but not long term, and 3D fighting had sales novelty no matter how bad the game was.

 

1 hour ago, cubanismo said:

This might speak more to Sony's overreliance on the PlayStation division than the console itself failing in the market. Coming off of the PS2, expectations must have been sky-high. It's fair to say it failed by Sony's measure, but how valid was their perspective?

 

I think the real problem was other parts of Sony were already floundering by this point, and the PS3 was just their last best hope at meeting targets, so they told themselves it was going to work. So yes, similar to Atari and Jaguar in a way, but barely comparable IMHO. After all, Sony still makes consoles.

Well unlike Atari Sony had significant reserves in the bank and didn't cut all their other product lines leaving PS3 as the sole product.

 

A move that still doesn't make sense to me, and no one who has ever interviewed any dev or partner of Atari Corp has been brave enough to ask why that dumb decision was made.

 

Sega had some rich guys on board for the DC at least.

 

22 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

Perhaps it ? was you? I was just hoping it could be true. Like we said just 1 Konami game like Castlevania 95, 1 Capcom game like ssf2turbo, 1 Sega (which legally Sega had to make a Jaguar game maybe virtua racing), 1 Probe MKII Deluxe etc would have went well with the great 10 Jaguar Games like doom, temptest2000, avp, nba jam, wolf3d, rayman etc or my fav fight4life or sequels but either way the jaguar is infamous like dreamcast with so many great things and so many bad things going for it most due to timing, cost and trying stay relevant until ship sank. Actually Atari and Sega went down similarly.

Jaguar fans at least acknowledge mistakes and point out and sometimes have fun with it's flaws and sparse appeal game line up.

 

Dreamcast fans pretend Sega did nothing wrong and it was 100% bulletproof. Just that the election was rigged.