Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[agradeneu]

15 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

We did work they just scrapped most of it late. 

 

Everything else was explained, example, contracts on each end to assist, mass miscommunication, lack of knowledge of the character. This wasn't just Atari and Imagitec but Accolade too (who controlled the IP.) 

 

I never said anything about Atari thinking the platform couldn't handle a side scroller, in fact on both ends I brought up the exact opposite, they wanted something smooth, well animated and Disney comparable but it was tough with what everyone had to pull that off.

 

The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted (with poor guidance) was Rayman, and that used tricks with the detached limbs.

 

Then you have the whole Mike situation and the other issue with the core Imagitec devs not having a clue about the character or abilities as described previously. I myself wasn't familiar originally but I got more information than they did.

 

The Andrew Seed remarks seemed to have been echoed (somewhat) on this very forum too.

 

There's more, but already you have a mess, and the consequences are clearly evident to those who played the game, more so if you get further in. 

 

What work? You still did not say anyhing tangible on your work other than telling a story of the huge clusterfuck the whole development of Bubsy allegedly was.

I wonder if you know what real work on a video game actually means?  

 

 

Rayman was produced by Ubisoft and not Atari, by a development team that was competent and just doing their job in the best way possible - curiously enough you hear no overblown confused soap opera drama from them.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by agradeneu

[JagChris]

12 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

? know certain Jaguar Development teams had nicknames, Handmade Software was known as Half Finished software for example. 

?

[Lostdragon]

Just now, JagChris said:

?

And that was an internal nickname, aimed at Jim Gregory by his staff, so much stuff pushed out the door half finished. 

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

You still did not say anyhing tangible on your work other than telling a story of the huge clusterfuck the whole development of Bubsy allegedly was. 

 

 

Rayman was produced by Ubisoft and not Atari, by a development team that was competent and just doing their job in the best way possible - curiously enough you hear no overblown confused soap opera drama from them.

 

 

I described what we worked on so not sure what you mean.

 

But yes Ubisofts Ancel and the higher ups were in synergy, and Ancel was able to get people together for a clear vision.

 

But of course Atari during the Jag- actually most of Atari Corp in the 90's and many studios they associated with just failed at synergy. But everyone knows that, its how you have games like Club Drive and Checkered Flag. 

[newtmonkey]

I'm just talking about the retail library here.

 

I think it's unfair to demonize John Linnemann as he is actually quite level-headed when it comes to the Jaguar, when the vast, vast majority of content creators on Youtube are overly critical of the system. He's is one of the few content creators now who actually gives the Jaguar a fair shake (probably because he grew up enjoying console as well as PC games), with the only other exception being implantgames.

Edited August 13, 2021 by newtmonkey

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, Leeroy ST said:

I described what we worked on so not sure what you mean.

 

But yes Ubisofts Ancel and the higher ups were in synergy, and Ancel was able to get people together for a clear vision.

 

But of course Atari during the Jag- actually most of Atari Corp in the 90's and many studios they associated with just failed at synergy. But everyone knows that, its how you have games like Club Drive and Checkered Flag. 

No you did not. So once again, what work did YOU on Bubsy? Its not really a hard question to answer.

 

I worked on several video games and I have no problems to explain what I did and I am doing in a tangible way.

 

 

[Lostdragon]

6 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

What work? You still did not say anyhing tangible on your work other than telling a story of the huge clusterfuck the whole development of Bubsy allegedly was.

I wonder if you know what real work on a video game actually means?  

 

 

Rayman was produced by Ubisoft and not Atari, by a development team that was competent and just doing their job in the best way possible - curiously enough you hear no overblown confused soap opera drama from them.

 

 

Plus, the character began life on the lowly Atari ST as a simple Animation Demo. 

 

 

We've been here before with people suddenly springing up with claims and being found out and no, I do not in this instance refer to Jane Whittaker. 

 

 

Unseen64 saw it at least twice. 

 

With Croc 3

 

https://www.unseen64.net/2012/12/29/croc-3-stone-of-the-gobbos-cancelled-psx-ps2-xbox-gamecube/

 

 

And Luca had me look into nto someone claiming they'd worked on Lomax In Lemmings Land and seen a Prototype planned Retail version of the Playstation hardware with far more Ram and Lomax running with greater animation, multiple parallax levels, bigger sprites etc. 

 

 

Sorry, but in an era when you Jez San/Martin Hooley/Jim Gregory, Mark Cale, let alone Jane Whittaker types repeatedly use social media to fabricate and exaggerate... 

 

Any claims need to be verified and cross checked with others involved with the games creation. 

 

To start with please give us the actual working title for your team and to whom Atari made payments. 

 

Numerous Atari Corp payment schedules have been found and shared over the years, there would be a paper trail for work your team carried out, credited in game or in manuals or not. 

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, newtmonkey said:

I'm just talking about the retail library here.

 

I think it's unfair to demonize John Linnemann as he is actually quite level-headed when it comes to the Jaguar, when the vast, vast majority of content creators on Youtube are overly critical of the system. He's is one of the few content creators now who actually gives the Jaguar a fair shake (probably because he grew up enjoying console as well as PC games), with the only other exception being implantgames.

Did we?

[JagChris]

5 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

No you did not. So once again, what work did YOU on Bubsy? Its not really a hard question to answer.

I agree. You're still being vague and when you go to describe what you did you seem to veer off to the right or left.

 

So what I did on Busy was... Oh look over there... no over there! Did you see that? 

 

Did you or did you not work directly with @Seedy1812(Andrew Seed)?

[Lostdragon]

10 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I described what we worked on so not sure what you mean.

 

But yes Ubisofts Ancel and the higher ups were in synergy, and Ancel was able to get people together for a clear vision.

 

But of course Atari during the Jag- actually most of Atari Corp in the 90's and many studios they associated with just failed at synergy. But everyone knows that, its how you have games like Club Drive and Checkered Flag. 

Checkered Flag was exactly what Atari contracted to receive, a plain polygon racing game. 

 

The fact Atari awarded such a contract to a fledgling, small development team, with absolutely sweet F. A experience with racing games of any form, only 3D work prior was the mediocre Eye Of The Storm on PC, sums Atari up in a nutshell. 

 

Synergy had nothing to do with that one, complete and utter lack of previous experience with driving games, it was also coder Rob Dibley's first commercial game i believe. 

 

 

If your handing your attempt at doing Virtua Racing on Jaguar to a developer like Rebellion, your bloody desperate. 

 

Teque with what became WTR on Jaguar CD had a far better crack at it and what did Atari do? 

 

 

Have them move the bastard to CD and texture map it ?

[Leeroy ST]

2 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

No you did not. So once again, what work did YOU on Bubsy? Its not really a hard question to answer.

 

I worked on several video games and I have no problems to explain what I did and I am doing in a tangible way.

 

 

I clearly stated what areas I was involved in, not sure what issues you have understanding that first post.

 

1 minute ago, Lostdragon said:

Any claims need to be verified and cross checked with others involved with the games creation. 

 

To start with please give us the actual working title for your team and to whom Atari made payments. 

 

Numerous Atari Corp payment schedules have been found and shared over the years, there would be a paper trail for work your team carried out, credited in game or in manuals or not. 

There is no working title for the team, they put us in a group but we didn't have a company name we were contractors. I already mentioned this multiple times. Atari or Accolade wrote the checks based on how you were brought in. Checks were written directly to the individual. 

 

If you can find the pay schedule for that great. But dont put out any names if you do.

 

[newtmonkey]

7 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Did we?

Yes, someone called him a "biased a-hole"

Not interested in going back and forth on this.  Have a good day.

[Leeroy ST]

3 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Did you or did you not work directly with @Seedy1812(Andrew Seed)?

Considered how clearly this was answered this is a strange question.

 

2 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

Checkered Flag was exactly what Atari contracted to receive, a plain polygon racing game. 

 

The fact Atari awarded such a contract to a fledgling, small development team, with absolutely sweet F. A experience with racing games of any form, only 3D work prior was the mediocre Eye Of The Storm on PC, sums Atari up in a nutshell. 

 

Synergy had nothing to do with that one, complete and utter lack of previous experience with driving games, it was also coder Rob Dibley's first commercial game i believe. 

 

 

If your handing your attempt at doing Virtua Racing on Jaguar to a developer like Rebellion, your bloody desperate. 

 

Teque with what became WTR on Jaguar CD had a far better crack at it and what did Atari do? 

 

 

Have them move the bastard to CD and texture map it ?

World Tour Racing would be amazing if the frame rate wasn't, uh, I guess single digits at some points? 

 

It definitely had graphics by Jaguar standards but it was too blurry and had no sense of speed. 

[agradeneu]

6 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I clearly stated what areas I was involved in, not sure what issues you have understanding that first post.

 

There is no working title for the team, they put us in a group but we didn't have a company name we were contractors. I already mentioned this multiple times. Atari or Accolade wrote the checks based on how you were brought in. Checks were written directly to the individual. 

 

If you can find the pay schedule for that great. But dont put out any names if you do.

 

Ok, you are pulling off that move again. 

 

Strange way to hire a work force! You contract coders, animators, artists, musicians etc. Somehow you are totally unable to describe the jobs your team was contracted for. And what your role in the team was.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, newtmonkey said:

Yes, someone called him a "biased a-hole"

Not interested in going back and forth on this.  Have a good day.

Yeah that was uncalled for. Sorry for that!

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

Ok, you are pulling off that move again. 

 

You contract coders, animators, artists, musicians etc. Somehow you are totally unable to describe the jobs your team was contracted for. 

 

 

Except I did, twice, in the initial post. But if you can't see it I dont really know how to help you with that. I give what things we did, and one thing that ended up not being included.

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Except I did, twice, in the initial post. But if you can't see it I dont really know how to help you with that. I give what things we did, and one thing that ended up not being included.

Whatever. I don't buy it, sorry. Sounds like "a Whittaker" to me.

Edited August 13, 2021 by agradeneu
wording

[Leeroy ST]

4 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Whatever. I don't buy it, sorry. Sounds 100% BS to me.

I mean your ability to not clearly read the roles and objectives that were clearly typed are your problem, not mine, and you won't actually elaborate on what you want, you're just being stubborn attacking me instead for giving voluntary infirmation. So if that's how you want to discuss have a nice day.

 

Quote

Yeah that was uncalled for. Sorry for that!

Considering the pattern this apology is questionable.

 

Edit: Ahh, there's that edit 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[agradeneu]

3 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I mean your ability to not clearly read the roles and objectives that were clearly typed are your problem, not mine, and you won't actually elaborate on what you want, you're just being stubborn attacking me instead for giving voluntary infirmation. So if that's how you want to discuss have a nice day.

 

 

Sorry that I do not understand how you "increase" a sprite. How do you do that?

Edited August 13, 2021 by agradeneu

[Leeroy ST]

4 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Sorry that I do not understand how you "increase" a sprite. How do you do that?

It actually says 'increase sprite quality" which completely changes the context you're trying to push.

 

Quote

help find ways to "increase" sprite quality out the Jaguar 

 

Have a nice day sir.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[agradeneu]

3 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

It actually says 'increase sprite quality" which completely changes the context you're trying to push.

 

 

Have a nice day sir.

Well, what did your team to "increase sprite" quality out of the Jaguar? 

[Lostdragon]

26 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I clearly stated what areas I was involved in, not sure what issues you have understanding that first post.

 

There is no working title for the team, they put us in a group but we didn't have a company name we were contractors. I already mentioned this multiple times. Atari or Accolade wrote the checks based on how you were brought in. Checks were written directly to the individual. 

 

If you can find the pay schedule for that great. But dont put out any names if you do.

 

I've spent time i am never getting back, looking into Jane Whittaker claims and only then as due diligence to research an on-going legal case. 

 

I looked into misc Imagitec Design claims, Panther especially, as Martin Hooley was given a platform by Retrogamer Magazine to fabricate and tell alternative stories to one's he'd told uk press years before. 

 

They turned out to be utter nonsense. 

 

Andrew Seed has an account on here, if you were as you say, involved with Bubsy in manner you were, he can verify it. 

 

 

Your team were contractors, therefore they operated under a name, a name your strangely reluctant to say. 

 

It can't BE an N. D. A issue or nobody from Imagitec would of said sh#t, even with a mouthful to anyone let alone be interviewed by Freelancers for  features in likes of RG Magazine for company profiles or misc Jaguar articles. 

 

 

Sam Tramiel wrote the chequ that's why games were canned, he pulled the plug on them. 

 

 

So if we asked Sam Tramiel about this support group, he or Leonard would confirm it? 

 

 

You know they've both been happy to clear up claims regarding Whittaker.. 

 

 

Cheques were paid directly to the individual? 

 

 

So why only your group given this treatment? 

 

Not imagitec, Probe, ATD, Rebellion etc?

 

 

Remember Whittaker and Beaton hadn't been paid, because the money Atari paid Rebellion had run out. 

 

One of the first tasks Purple had as AVP producer, was to get Sam to release more money to Rebellion, so Beaton and Whittaker got paid, that's from Purple himself. 

 

 

Your accounts simply aren't in line with what's been long established about how Atari worked at this time. 

 

 

 

[Lostdragon]

36 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Except I did, twice, in the initial post. But if you can't see it I dont really know how to help you with that. I give what things we did, and one thing that ended up not being included.

You give YOUR NAME. 

 

You give YOUR GROUPS NAME.

 

We have them checked by The Tramiel family and the Imagitec Bubsy team. 

 

It's honestly that straightforward. 

 

It's how claims by everyone are treated, you take the claim to multiple sources, share what comes back. 

 

Let folks make up their own minds. 

 

 

Your not being attacked, your just getting given a fair chance to provide credibility and a means for the community to ensure it's getting an accurate account. 

 

Anyone planning a feature on Jaguar Bubsy would love to learn of cut bonus rounds, but they have to establish it's credibility. 

 

 

Nobody is asking more of you than has been asked of anyone else who's worked in the industry... 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Lostdragon

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, Lostdragon said:

You give YOUR NAME. 

 

You give YOUR GROUPS NAME.

 

We have them checked by The Tramiel family and the Imagitec Bubsy team. 

 

It's honestly that straightforward. 

 

It's how claims by everyone are treated, you take the claim to multiple sources, share what comes back. 

 

Let folks make up their own minds. 

Maybe  ask Faran or Andrew Seed or whatever person he was supposed to work with. However memory can be shaky. 

I doubt you could demand making personal data public. Its should be save, and rightfully so.

 

There are several red flags for me, like his writings being a confused mess all the time, his lack of tangible knowledge about the Jaguar and the Falcon, especially when confronted with Zerosquare.

 In the end, there are no credits for his work and no credibility for his claims. End of story.

He himself is unable to make his work visible, it's vague "guess what" for a reason probably 

Giving the recent fraudulant claims by certain individduals, it's more than justified to be cautious. I mostly give ppl the benefit of the doubt, but not in his case.

 

 

Guess we all need a break from this clusterfuck   

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, Lostdragon said:

You give YOUR NAME. 

 

You give YOUR GROUPS NAME.

 

We have them checked by The Tramiel family and the Imagitec Bubsy team. 

 

It's honestly that straightforward. 

 

It's how claims by everyone are treated, you take the claim to multiple sources, share what comes back. 

 

Let folks make up their own minds. 

If I wanted to give my name (which isn't a good idea for various reasons) I would have registered in my name.

 

I'm not getting this group thing, we were a team of contractors meant to be support, as in assist in various area. We were not a studio like Rebellion, which you brought up before for some reason. Contractors are not a studio.

 

Also after the first long post you made basically confirming or admitting to hearing about 90% of what I brought up, this is getting stranger and stranger. You are basically conflicting yourself.

 

I dont know how far their recollection goes back, we are talking around the mid 90's here, but if they can, the Tramiel "family" should easily confirm they had individual contractors working with/for them. Straightforward. 

 

You can come to your own conclusions but I already gave my voluntary information. I've said everything I could, at least in this environment.