Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[Leeroy ST]

4 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

 the Jaguar and the Falcon, especially when 

Falcon has nothing to do with the Jaguar, you are already messing. 

 

5 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

He himself is unable to make his work visible, it's vague "guess what" for a reason probably 

Except me clearly saying what the work was and you trying to distort a post out of context to make it seem like I said something else. That's called dishonesty.

 

But hey if you want to just not believe me fine, usually that happens until more info comes out later. Probably won't get an apology either, it's how it is. It's why devs usually aren't open in forums these days, here, Gaf, Era, etc.

 

The voluntary info is there for those who want it or not. 

 

[Lostdragon]

34 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

If I wanted to give my name (which isn't a good idea for various reasons) I would have registered in my name.

 

I'm not getting this group thing, we were a team of contractors meant to be support, as in assist in various area. We were not a studio like Rebellion, which you brought up before for some reason. Contractors are not a studio.

 

Also after the first long post you made basically confirming or admitting to hearing about 90% of what I brought up, this is getting stranger and stranger. You are basically conflicting yourself.

 

I dont know how far their recollection goes back, we are talking around the mid 90's here, but if they can, the Tramiel "family" should easily confirm they had individual contractors working with/for them. Straightforward. 

 

You can come to your own conclusions but I already gave my voluntary information. I've said everything I could, at least in this environment.

Final post on this matter. 

 

People usually don't give their names as they are bound by N. D. A agreements or there's still bad blood between them and staff they worked with or they know said staff will counter their claims. 

 

Andrew Holyrod of Tiertex was the last example i personally encountered, along with Jim Gregory of HMS, staff from those teams saw their claims are were able to counter them beyond reasonable doubt, so they were no longer credible sources and warnings about their claims issued, so folks didn't take them at face value. 

 

But even when blaming the Tramiel family or claiming they'd completed a version of Paperboy for the 7800,without a lick of proof, they were open enough to use their full names. 

 

All we have for you is a username and talk of a hostile environment stopping you from coming forward. 

 

More hostile than HMS, System 3,Imagitec? 

 

 

Those were some of the most toxic environments going judging by staff comments. 

 

Rebellion were a studio, Probe were a studio, ATD were a studio, they ALL did  CONTRACT DEVELOPMENT work for Atari, none of the staff were paid on an individual basis. 

 

 

Nobody has any doubts Atari hired contractors, I myself spoke with a contract Engineer, as did Clint Thompson if my memory serves. 

 

He was approached regarding false claims Sam Tramiel made in an interview. 

 

He went under a nickname.. 

 

But again he had no issues giving his real name, actual role for Atari as an individual, yet you sir, seem bound by an environment never encountered by any other individual thus far any of us have encountered. 

 

 

Indeed we have come to our own conclusions.. 

 

 

Break indeed needed. 

 

Ignore topic. 

 

Ignore user. 

 

Let the Imagitec folk deal with this one. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Lostdragon

[Leeroy ST]

2 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

Rebellion were a studio, Probe were a studio, ATD were a studio, they ALL did  CONTRACT DEVELOPMENT work for Atari, none of the staff were paid on an individual basis. 

Your lack of being able to tell the difference between a contracted studio and an individual contractor is part of the problem here but I'm tired of trying to get you to understand that and we are going in circles.

 

You can come to your conclusion, which I believe is wrong, but that may become apparent in the future. But I have no concern either way, the voluntary information is there for those who want it or want to check on it (and you yourself basically vouched for 90% of it based on what "you heard" in your first post) so I'll leave it at that.

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

As for the thread topic, it seems people agreed outside some who inflated drive costs, that the CD drive would have gotten Atari higher production in game quantity and increase their third party support some. Enough imo to keep the company alive even if they were to go third party.

 

Of course also agreed that many of the Jaguars other problems and hardware obstacles would mostly still be in place, and likely at best the Jaguar would just make enough money for the company to survive and would not have very high sales. 

 

I do however wonder if there was some sort of partnership possible. Maybe Atari could have teamed up with a company to make the Jaguar more competitive overall.

 

3DO, while the partnerships were required/necessary, did benefit the company in software production and distribution of machines to retailers, (but also the $700).

 

I know Atari burnt a lot of bridges but I do wonder if there was a potential company that Atari could have partnered with.

 

Either way, even with the goal of just surviving at minimum they needed third party support to attract the minimal amount of consumers to reach that goal.

 

[LordKraken]

Ok I just read all your posts on this thread @Leeroy ST (why did I do that on a Friday evening...) and I couldn't find one where you clearly stated what your worked with. Were you a programmer, an artist, a designer? What part of the game did you work on? New levels, existing ones? I mean sure it was 25 years ago but it can't be that hard to give a bit of details and substance to your claims. And you don't even have to give your name for that.

 

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Falcon has nothing to do with the Jaguar, you are already messing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing that is really messed up is your inability to remember your own words:

 

 

 

Quote

 

"I said this:

 

If you take the hardware of the Falcon focusing on gaming it ends up cheaper than the Jaguar even if you improve it choosey to the next tier. More importantly the internals would have more synergy.

 

The next step up would put on on par with 3DO except it would have a slight disadvantage in texturing, but the trade off is it would be faster than the 3DOs slow processor.

 

With the had no synergy in the internals leading to multiple bottlenecks all with arguably pointless custom chips adding to cost. 

 

Starting new with the Jaguar never made sense to be compared to a consolized gaming focused falcon with the next generation chipset imo. "

 

 

 

 

[Zerosquare]

30 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The only thing that is really messed up is your inability to remember your own words

Hey, give him some slack. It's not easy to remember everything when you have to lie and change the topic every 5 minutes.

 

1 hour ago, LordKraken said:

I couldn't find one where you clearly stated what your worked with. Were you a programmer, an artist, a designer? What part of the game did you work on? New levels, existing ones? I mean sure it was 25 years ago but it can't be that hard to give a bit of details and substance to your claims.

 

 

Oh, and about that "improve sprite quality" thing: beside being vague, it doesn't make sense. Because if there's one thing the Jaguar hardware is good at, it's handling sprites:

- no hard limit on the number of sprites, as long as there's enough bandwidth

- no size constraints: any sprite can be as small as a single pixel, or as big as the entire screen (or even bigger)

- each sprite can have a different bit depth, from 1 to 16 (or even 24 actually, but nobody uses it)

- two different color models (RGB and CRY) ; you can even use both on the same screen

- on-the-fly zooms

- translucency effects are supported, even if the way it works is a bit weird

 

There isn't much you can "improve the quality" of ; back in 1993, that was excellent.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Zerosquare

[Leeroy ST]

32 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

 

 

The only thing that is really messed up is your inability to remember your own words:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another twisting of posts.

 

I was clearly speaking of a hypothetical Falcon console, but you already lied once earlier already so this isn't surprising.

 

3 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

There isn't much you can "improve the quality" of ; back in 1993, that was excellent.

Yet there are better looking and visually smooth 2D games on Jag and other consoles than Bubsy Fractured.

 

But there isn't much you can "improve the quality of" you say?

 

Again, just more evidence you have no idea what the heck you're talking about, your holier than thou attitude is so inflated your tripping over yourself.

 

Are you really going to argue there wasn't anything to improve in regards to Bubsy Fractured? Or are you going to prove you couldn't follow the conversation and decided to make an irrelevant attack without reading?

 

Seems like the later.

 

But I'll save you the trouble, it's clear you jumped in without reading and didn't follow the conversation, it's clear you thought, because you didn't use your head, I was talking about hardware and not the game itself. But this is what happens with inflated egos, you dont think ahead. You probably will skim past this part of the post and prove my point to.

 

Quote

Oh, and about that "improve sprite quality" thing: beside being vague, it doesn't make sense.

 

Makes perfect sense if you actually paid attention. It's not easy to get what you want out the Jag (duh) and the whole goal was to increase the quality of the sprites of THE GAME (duh) with what was available. Clearly this was possible given other games on the same console and elsewhere. So clearly it could be improved upon.

 

Nowhere was the Jaguar hardware itself mentioned in regards to sprites. But those on the wrong side of the argument constantly make mistakes like that.

 

So it's clear you are a bad faith actor. I'm not playing your game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+Sauron]

14 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Makes perfect sense if you actually paid attention. It's not easy to get what you want out the Jag (duh) and the whole goal was to increase the quality of the sprites of THE GAME (duh) with what was available. Clearly this was possible given other games on the same console and elsewhere. So clearly it could be improved upon.

 

Nowhere was the Jaguar hardware itself mentioned in regards to sprites. But those on the wrong side of the argument constantly make mistakes like that.

 

So it's clear you are a bad faith actor. I'm not playing your game.

 

No, actually it doesn't make sense. Sorry, but you're being intentionally vague to the point that it's simply hard to follow what you're trying to say. "Improving sprite quality" can mean just about anything. Do you mean quality of the artwork? Using higher color-count sprites? More animation frames? Were you an artist or a programmer? What tools did you use in order to "improve sprite quality"? I'd like to take you at your word here, but you've done absolutely nothing to give yourself any credibility in this regard, especially as you were the one insulting Zerosquare for being an "armchair developer". I'm sure you can give more detailed answers to these questions without doxxing yourself.

 

[+Sauron]

7 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

One thing little known about the game was the contracted Atari helping "support team" that wasn't credited, granted it's never credited in any game, made to support in programming for enemies and collision, and was part of a group that was supposed to help find ways to "increase" sprite quality out the Jaguar because they (the top) wanted a game of "exploration", and a cross between a indiana Jones and a Alice and wonderland feel, as it was described. With, "Disney animation and feel" with no real guidance.

Ok, just went back to your older post and reread this. So, you were part of a team inside Atari meant to provide support for external developers, judging from what you wrote here. That's not uncommon at all, yet your post didn't really make it clear that YOU were on this team. So, you were contracted just to provide developer support for one single game, and simply for helping to improve collision detection? That seems to be an awfully specific role, especially if you're working on just one game. 

 

[Leeroy ST]

11 minutes ago, Sauron said:

"Improving sprite quality" can mean just about anything. 

 

Hmm, from same initial post:

 

7 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

With, "Disney animation and feel"

Same post where I clearly tell what was worked on and goals.

 

Also referred to again later:

5 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted (with poor guidance) was Rayman, and that used tricks with the detached limbs.

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

So, you were contracted just to provide developer support for one single game, and simply for helping to improve collision detection? That seems to be an awfully specific role, especially if you're working on just one game. 

 

Not just collision detection, also sprites and the collision were for levels and characters 

 

Also scrapped bonus.

 

8 minutes ago, Sauron said:

That's not uncommon at all, yet your post didn't really make it clear that YOU were on this team. 

I was responding to someone who wanted to know my role so I thought it was clear I was. 

[+CyranoJ]

2 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Not just collision detection, also sprites and the collision were for levels and characters 

There is no way someone would be hired for the purpose of looking at another teams game and then only improving the collision detection.

 

Especially as this is Atari we are talking about.

 

In my experience, the only people who are so vague with answers of no consequence are full of shite.

 

[+Sauron]

Ok, that clears it up a little more. Must have been a complete clusterfuck of a situation, especially considering that most of the enemy sprites in Bubsy have extremely jerky movement and no more than 2 frames of animation. 

 

[Leeroy ST]

3 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

There is no way someone would be hired for the purpose of looking at another teams game and then only improving the collision detection.

 

Especially as this is Atari we are talking about.

 

In my experience, the only people who are so vague with answers of no consequence are full of shite.

 

Good thing that's not what was said, and you completely ignored the post you quoted that also didn't say that.

 

It's clear there's a lot of bad faith reads here believe what you want. But you'll soon find your mistaken later but I expect stubbornness until then and more post twistings/omissions.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[+CyranoJ]

2 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

It's clear there's a lot of bad faith reads here believe what you want. But you'll soon find your mistaken later but I expect stubbornness until then and more post twistings/omissions.

Or you could just, you know, stop leaping off in different directions and answer the question you are so desperate for everyone else to believe you have already answered....

 

I know which is more plausible.

[+Sauron]

4 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

It's clear there's a lot of bad faith reads here believe what you want. But you'll soon find your mistaken later but I expect stubbornness until then

 

The Jag community has a long and sordid history of people coming into it and making outstanding claims about themselves or something they're working on only for it to turn out that they're completely full of shit. The whole ordeal with Jane Whittaker has only been the latest thing to come to light, but by far not the first. Of course, your own extremely vague style of writing certainly hasn't helped your own claims, so it shouldn't be difficult to see why so many of us have been skeptical about what you said.

 

 

[Zerosquare]

So, let me recap.

 

In a debate about how the Jaguar hardware should have been designed, @Leeroy ST knows better than everybody else.

Because he worked on Bubsy.

On improving sprite quality. And animation. Also, bonus stages. Or something.

Anyways, that obviously makes him qualified to talk about hardware design.

Oh, and he can offer no proof of that, because he's not credited in Bubsy.

Because they didn't use his work after all.

Which is why Bubsy is bad, and other games like Rayman are better.

Except he didn't work on that one, either.

 

Anyways, all of this (still following?) obviously means that he knows better than people who have worked directly with the Jaguar hardware, and can offer verifiable proof of their claims.

[Leeroy ST]

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Ok, that clears it up a little more. Must have been a complete clusterfuck of a situation, especially considering that most of the enemy sprites in Bubsy have extremely jerky movement and no more than 2 frames of animation. 

 

 

In the end much of the game was thrown together by core team, you can see design and collision detection get worse in real time as you get further in the game.

 

I myself have not personally beaten the final game even though I tried. Water world and boss just tired me out. 

 

I think with better direction and synergy the game could have been more playable and better designed. But I'm still not sure it would ever really be good. I dont think Bubsys formula works personally.

[+Sauron]

6 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

So, let me recap.

 

In a debate about how the Jaguar hardware should have been designed, @Leeroy ST knows better than everybody else.

Because he worked on Bubsy.

On improving sprite quality. And animation. Also, bonus stages. Or something.

Anyways, that obviously makes him qualified to talk about hardware design.

Oh, and he can offer no proof of that, because he's not credited in Bubsy.

Because they didn't use his work after all.

Which is why Bubsy is bad, and other games like Rayman are better.

Except he didn't work on that one, either.

 

Anyways, all of this (still following?) obviously means that he knows better than people who have worked directly with the Jaguar hardware, and can offer verifiable proof of their claims.

Piecing together everything he's written, his claims of having worked on Bubsy don't seem so far-fetched. But it has certainly taken some digging to decipher it all, thanks to his scattershot style of writing. And still, I'd say he has absolutely no room to insult or belittle you the way he did. 

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

24 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

So, let me recap.

 

In a debate about how the Jaguar hardware should have been designed, @Leeroy ST knows better than everybody else.

 

Just because you have an ego problem, and you showed incompetence not paying attention doesn't mean you can try to put this on me.

 

You may need some self reflection here, especially after you are the one who ignored the whole conversation was about the game Bubsy Fractured, then failed to attack me suggesting I said the Jaguar itself wasnt good at 2D and didn't need improvement. (??)

 

When you are desperate for aggression you mess up. You will of course to continue to dodge that mistake because you are dishonest. Also clearly compensating.

 

24 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

Which is why Bubsy is bad, and other games like Rayman are better.

Except he didn't work on that one, either.

Lies mixed with intentional out of context paraphrased quotes.

 

I had a nice long post with your history and choice words for you being the .......  you are but I decided not to go that far since I'm not going to join you at the bottom of the garbage pail.

 

There is no more conversation to be had with you, whatever you are. Just wow.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Leeroy ST]

35 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The Jag community has a long and sordid history of people coming into it and making outstanding claims about themselves or something they're working on only for it to turn out that they're completely full of shit. The whole ordeal with Jane Whittaker has only been the latest thing to come to light, but by far not the first. Of course, your own extremely vague style of writing certainly hasn't helped your own claims, so it shouldn't be difficult to see why so many of us have been skeptical about what you said.

 

It's so vague that almost every issue has been resolved by people actually reading the first post, and almost every answer has come from that. With no changes because of no edit button.

 

I think the assumptions are blocking some from actually reading the first post because they have preconceived idea in their heads.

 

I gave the information in a few posts, voluntarily. I have nothing more to add. Believe it or not ok.

 

But I bet I won't get an apology either later on when people come back to this. No need to stress myself over some questionable faith actors/responses. It's all going in circles anyway.

 

That is all.

 

(Look at below cyran response for bad faith actor that never tried to read initial post for example, just wagon jumper.)

Edited August 14, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[+CyranoJ]

8 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

doesn't mean you can try to put this on me.

especially after you are the one who ignored the whole conversation

You will of course to continue to dodge that mistake because you are dishonest. Also clearly compensating.

Lies mixed with intentional out of context paraphrased quotes.

There is no more conversation to be had with you, whatever you are. Just wow.

 

I haven't seen anything on this level of question/answer evasion since the JagZombies thread....   

 

 

Is that you?

[+Sauron]

3 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

It's so vague that almost every issue has been resolved by people actually reading the first post, and almost every answer has come from that. With no changes because of no edit button.

 

I think the assumptions are blocking some from actually reading the first post because they have preconceived idea in their heads.

 

I gave the information in a few posts, voluntarily. I have nothing more to add. Believe it or not ok.

 

But I bet I won't get an apology either later on when people come back to this. No need to stress myself over some questionable faith actors/responses. 

 

That is all.

No, it's taken an extreme amount of deciphering multiple posts to entangle the clusterfuck of your writing style. Don't blame everyone else for misunderstanding when you can't take a minute to clean up your own posts.

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

No, it's taken an extreme amount of deciphering multiple posts to entangle the clusterfuck of your writing style. Don't blame everyone else for misunderstanding when you can't take a minute to clean up your own posts.

 

 

Yes the multiple one post that most of the responses came from. 

 

Decipher or not I have said what I said. You can conclude how you want, there's nothing more for me to say after this. Other than I believe it will become clearer some of the skeptics will be wrong down the line.