Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[Leeroy ST]

3 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

Okay, let's try something else.

Curious segway from three mistakes you made using your own quote that clearly never said what agrad claimed. Which you posted by incident because you didn't read the quote. There's no misinterpretation it's not in there. Unless you're saying you somehow imagined words that were never typed in your own quote. 

 

At best nothing, at worst you're desperately trying to save yourself after multiple mistakes in a row by trying to shift the topic. You ran out of coins at the arcade, sorry buddy.

 

There is no something else, you lose. You have dropped what you tripled down on so you concede.

 

 

[Zerosquare]

18 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Curious segway

Not really. I'm just asking for a third-party opinion, since it's clear we don't agree on the meaning of words.

 

So people, what do you think? Which one of us two do you agree with?

Edited August 15, 2021 by Zerosquare

[+madman]

26 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

Not really. I'm just asking for a third-party opinion, since it's clear we don't agree on the meaning of words.

 

So people, what do you think? Which one of us two do you agree with?

Well it's impossible to follow what Leeroy STiger is saying so I'd have to agree w/you.

[Leeroy ST]

50 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

Not really. 

Yes really. Unless you can find the words agrad claimed in your own bottom quote on #718 (which you tripled down on) it's a segway.

 

It clearly doesn't exist. There's no misinterpreting anything it's not in the quote and the quote contradicts the claim.

 

Here's the claim you decided to ride:

 

Quote

you suggested that Rayman was suffering from the same limitations of the hardware like Bubsy. 

 

And nowhere is that claim anywhere in your own quote below:

 

Quote

I never said anything about Atari thinking the platform couldn't handle a side scroller, in fact on both ends I brought up the exact opposite, they wanted something smooth, well animated and Disney comparable but it was tough with what everyone had to pull that off.

 

The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted (with poor guidance) was Rayman, and that used tricks with the detached limbs.

 

Which was taken from my first post specifically about Bubsy and what they wanted to aim for with no edits. Even with you omitting the rest of the post it's still clearly not there. I'm sure you will continue trying to find an excuse but it's done, you dropped out and are trying to shift topics now.

 

So now that you have confirmed twice your dropping the subject you have now fully given up and conceded. Hey it's ok man, maybe you won't pick the wrong battle to triple down on next time.

 

(Maybe make less mistakes like in #718 where you think you "got" me but mistakenly supported me instead. Oops? Also strange how you threw everything else out to triple down on that one argument from that post onward, but more power to you I guess. All you have to do is read from there to see you flailing making the same mistake multiple times until you concede the victory to me here.)

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[rayik]

1 hour ago, Zerosquare said:

Okay, let's try something else.

 

Since you claim I am incapable of understanding your posts, let's ask someone else in this topic to sum up your arguments and the verifiable facts you contributed. In a single post, using clear and precise words, please. Who knows, maybe I'll be finally enlightened.

 

...anybody?

 

Leroy ST stated he worked for a "contracted" Atari support team to do sprite quality work on Busby

Leroy ST also stated Busby had work done on a 3D bonus stage which was not included in the game

When asked for details as to what the Busby sprite quality work entailed, Leroy ST stated see his original post

When asked for details of his involvement in Busby, Leroy ST stated see his original post

When asked questions about Jaguar sprites, Leroy ST basically stated the questioners do not know what they are talking about

Zerosquare and Leroy ST are having a discussion which is just going in circles

 

In sum, Leroy ST made statements about being invovled in Busby and either: refuses to provide more details; or states the questioner does not know what they are talking about

 

A conversation that is just going nowhere

[Leeroy ST]

Funny how the original post has been key to Zero flailing in his recent loss. It's almost like everything was always in there the whole time and several other takes on it were dishonest people (Zero and agrad among others) who decided to add imaginary text that never existed to the post. 

 

What's hilarious is Zero threw everything out to focus and double down on his post #718, where he posts the fake claim then a purposefully segmented piece of my post unedited without reading it, incidentally showing the claim was made up, and tried poorly to make up for it but instead continued making mistakes. Now he is upset and wants to find a way out, but poor zero had to drop the subject and concede.

 

He's still trying to shift the topic to this day, poor rayik didn't even know poor zero was already done.

 

Of course several people see this clearly as messages state, but there's no circle anymore he lost.

 

But if for some reason some still want to support the segway/failed evasion attempt, that's on the few of you who aren't able to figure that out yet like the others.

 

Anyway moving on topic.

[Leeroy ST]

Quote

.

Editor error with quotes not erasing

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[+Sauron]

12 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Of course several people see this clearly as messages state, but there's no circle anymore he lost.

There's only one person I've encountered who is capable of this level of delusion. Kieren, is that you?

 

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

There's only one person I've encountered who is capable of this level of delusion. Kieren, is that you?

Oh you can see my dms now mr.magic?

 

Oh you're the one who liked post #718 without realizing he fumbled himself. Have a nice day with your psychic friends who can see dms and maybe even emails they have no access to. How do you do it? Who knows. (You dont, you have the delusion.)

 

Anyway...

[Leeroy ST]

One thing to consider when discussing the Jaguar releasing with a CD drive from the start, is that it would be easier to convince (some) third parties from discontinued lines to move to the Jaguar, especially since CDs were hot and people wanted a cut of the action....(continued and reformated some posts down. Also ignore nonsense from malicious posters, product line cancellations were not previously discussed.)

Edited August 15, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Zerosquare]

If the above post seems familiar, it's because it's the same bullshit that's already been debunked by several persons on the first page of this topic:

 

26 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Of course several people see this clearly as messages state

Funny how none of these "people" ever post on this topic or even click the Like button on your posts, eh?

[Leeroy ST]

Above the tears of a man who lost desperately trying to cope, and also obsessed with me, but sadly he lost and from here on he will be in his little circle alone.

[Leeroy ST]

Anyway reformatting:

 

One thing to consider when discussing the Jaguar releasing with a CD drive from the start, is that it would be easier to convince (some) third parties from discontinued lines to move to the Jaguar, especially since CDs were hot and people wanted a cut of the action.

 

One of Atari's strangest and debated moves was them cutting all products outside the Jaguar and Lynx (and eventually reeling back the Lynx) when the main launch of the Jag was executed.

 

This hurt Atari with retailers and devs, but having the hot CD as a standard not only lowers production costs and allows a higher quantity of software to be distributed, but would allow devs to take advantage of the then new(ly popular) hot benefits CD offered.

 

Sure some devs still wouldn't touch Atari with a 2600 foot pole, BUT the goal of the Jaguar was too keep the company afloat, not win (at least internally) so an increase in third parties means more games, more prints mean higher sales potential for them and Atari, and this means more buyers and Atari makes more money.

 

At worst Atari is third party but alive, at best Atari has a successor (likely partnered with someone)

 

As is currently Atari didn't have much incentive for neutral or leaning third parties to touch the Jaguar, games cancelled even in early life.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[+Sauron]

14 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Oh you can see my dms now mr.magic?

 

Oh you're the one who liked post #718 without realizing he fumbled himself. Have a nice day with your psychic friends who can see dms and maybe even emails they have no access to. How do you do it? Who knows. (You dont, you have the delusion.)

 

Anyway...

How does what I said have to do with seeing your "dms"? Am I not the first person to wonder if you're Kieren Hawken? I guess that wouldn't be surprising. 

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

On 7/23/2021 at 11:35 PM, Major Havoc 2049 said:

I do think the Jaguar would have been better off as a CD system from the get go, as I think 3rd party support would have been slightly better for the Jag.  Cybermorph would of had music and maybe a few more textures.  Atari's biggest problem was lack of funds to properly support the Jaguar from the very start.

 

OP, I think some of your Jaguar CD history is off.  The Jag CD was mentioned as an add-on in the initial press release announcing the Jaguar and was shown at the first press event. 

I missed this, but this really just shows Atari knew that CD was an important feature even early on, or they wouldn't have bothered hyping it up early. You will always get more dev and consumer interest with the drive built in.

 

Look at the Sega CD, even Sonic at peak popularity years couldn't move a few million of that thing. That's likely the most successful CD add on for home game consoles unless I'm forgetting something.

 

[phoenixdownita]

Holy cow, I sure hope Leeroy ST is not as argumentative in person and not so hung up on things he said he did not say, which include not saying if he was a programmer (he didn't respond to that one so I guess NOT) or a pixel artist but I am not sure what job description would be "help collision detection".

 

My 2 cents it's that maybe he was a pixel artist. 

 

As to be in a "support" role to teach/help developers get the most out of the Jag wrt sprite/animation/background-collision that would entail he knew more than the game studios involved, only way for that to be true is that he had access to Atari docs/resources that Atari itself did not share with said game studios but had no issue to share with a contractor .... Atari is known for having done worse so maybe.

 

 

[phoenixdownita]

<quoted-out-of-context>
".... unless I'm forgetting something."

</quoted-out-of-context>

 

<snarky-remark>

mhh, the word you are looking for is "modesty", that seems to be amiss.

</snarky-remark>

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

Anyway reformatting:

 

 ...but having the hot CD as a standard not only lowers production costs and allows a higher quantity of software to be distributed, but would allow devs to take advantage of the then new(ly popular) hot benefits CD offered.

 

 It may lower individual game cost but not console production. Please explain how that would have helped get consoles out at launch.

 

[Leeroy ST]

18 minutes ago, JagChris said:

 It may lower individual game cost but not console production. Please explain how that would have helped get consoles out at launch.

 

Considering how many cd consoles came out within a short time frame around the Jaguars launch this doesn't add up.

 

The "premium" isn't as substancial as implied for one. 

 

Secondly a cd drive wouldn't have altered the Jaguars test launch they would have still produced around 20,000 consoles or so and likely still sell all of them. Low amount either way. This was in 93 before launch.

 

By the time the console comes out in 94, there would be so many companies even outside games in cd drives that Atari would not only be able to produce more consoles then they had now, but the price of drives quickly decreased and we see that with other consoles and electronics around the same time as the Jaguars launch and shortly after.

 

This belief that Atari would end up crashing in the red because of a built in drive just doesn't add up. The prices were quickly decreasing rapidly starting in 92.

 

Then you have the possibility of higher quantity for FP and TP games, which means higher sales cap, and more TP support attracting more console adopters, which would be out the gate and shortly after, all giving more money to Atari comparatively.

 

It's almost entirely a net benefit.

[JagChris]

Okay I'm going to be blunt here. You use a lot of conversation tricks that really say nothing and aren't backed up by anything. And you are the best I've ever seen which is really saying a lot around here. My hat is off to you sir.

 

So until you can clarify your points I'm going to leave my post here that adding complexity to a launch system the built-in CD drive would have made things worse for a company who could not even to fill the pre-orders for a simpler cartridge based system.

[Zerosquare]

And yet more wild claims with zero supporting evidence.

 

If adding the CD part was so cheap and trivial in 1993, how do you explain that the JagCD (released two years later) was still both expensive and obviously rushed?

[+Sauron]

12 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Okay I'm going to be blunt here. You use a lot of conversation tricks that really say nothing and aren't backed up by anything. 

See, if even JagChris can see through your bullshit, then it's probably best to take your ball and go home.

 

[+CyranoJ]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

... gave up reading anything in here ages ago ...

If we all agree with you and say you are correct, will you shut the fuck up?

 

Asking for a friend.

[Leeroy ST]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

Okay I'm going to be blunt here. You use a lot of conversation tricks that really say nothing and aren't backed up by anything. And you are the best I've ever seen which is really saying a lot around here. My hat is off to you sir.

 

So until you can clarify your points I'm going to leave my post here that adding complexity to a launch system the built-in CD drive would have made things worse for a company who could not even to fill the pre-orders for a simpler cartridge based system.

Yes just ignore the fact we can pull up CD prices easily by year. You're the one who didn't address my points, why dont YOU prove the "costs" would be too high to add a drive. Where's this imaginary "backup" you imply YOU provided? Is it the same that was not provided by the small group of others who said the same thing? Invisible?

 

Why dont you explain why CD consoles dropping in price in 94 "doesn't matter" ?

 

Why dont you explain why you think declining CD prices would supposedly skip the Jaguar specifically by 1994 as you're implying?

 

You and a small small group of people continue to spout this nonsense about the drive being some substancial issue in cost and production and not one of you say how. Other than it will because.........?

 

Yet we can pull prices of cd drive devices in general and see price drops from 1992-1993-1994 at the time of Jaguars launch. Do you need that? I can look it up and get them on request, but we know you and that small group know this. Still Cd device prices can be pulled up by request if you're having trouble.

 

Why dont you show me the issue you're talking about and I'll pull up the CD prices.... oh that's right you ran off set. 

 

Maybe someone else can who isn't a bad faith actor like Agrad, Zero, Sauron (now following me outside this thread to start arguments), and Cyrano. Maybe an honest person can prove me wrong without (for two of the mentioned) making up text that was never said, or in your case, running off screen?

 

Hmmm.

 

The preorder thing doesn't make sense either, it only works if you disconnect the market test and everything in between before then, even though there's a clear connection between that and Atari's production issues. It's just lazy and oversimplified like most game crash "analysis" is.

 

But in either case I'll post the CD device prices anyway just to show how silly some of this is, when I get to a better device.

 

The "increased complexity" would be an interesting area to explore in depth but no one has done that yet either, just said it, how curious and ironic.

 

I also like one user trying to use Ataris incompetence with Jag CD pricing (even later after launch) as some proof CDs were expensive. I'd like to see the explanation for CD device prices soon. And why others could go down but not Atari.

 

It reminds me of one guy who said the drive would make the Jag around $500 earlier in the thread, which would be the same price as a still early 3DO, a console who's high price had little (relatively) to do with it's CD drive.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Arcadia]

17 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Yet we can pull prices of cd drive devices in general and see price drops from 1992-1993-1994 at the time of Jaguars launch.

The problem is, is that you don't start ordering parts for your project months before it hits shelves at stores, but rather years before. It's probably more accurate to factor in prices of CD drives back in 1990 when planning started for the Jag.