Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[Bill Loguidice]

34 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

and yet Sega couldn't launch the CDX for <399US$ in Apr 1994, and even the Sega CD2 in late 1993 was 229US$ ... 

In this case I just don't think Atari could have pulled a Jag+CD combo at <300US$ or imho hardly at 349US$ to launch in Nov 1993.
And yes it is just my opinion!

 

To be fair, the CDX was a special case considering the form factor and function. It wasn't like a JVC X'Eye/WonderMega which would have been a more accurate analog (or TurboDuo for that matter). I also don't think anyone was saying Atari could do a JagDuo at $299. I think $399 would have been a realistic target, and certainly the target I would have expected at November 1993.

[phoenixdownita]

14 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

..... I also don't think anyone was saying Atari could do a JagDuo at $299. 

...wait, I can think of someone that is saying exactly that (or even cheaper), but I admit he has not stated a price point so maybe I am misreading his statements.

[+GoldLeader]

2 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

and yet Sega couldn't launch the CDX for <399US$ in Apr 1994, and even the Sega CD2 in late 1993 was 229US$ ... 

In this case I just don't think Atari could have pulled a Jag+CD combo at <300US$ or imho hardly at 349US$ to launch in Nov 1993.
And yes it is just my opinion!

 

 

I like you Phoenix,...For starters you know the difference between facts and opinions.  Considering this is all speculative anyway,  I consider almost everything talked about here to be in the realm of opinion not fact.

 

 And even if you are talking facts (i.e. the price of a CD Drive unit in '93),  you're still going to be guessing when it comes to the engineering costs involved in turning those drives into something integrated into the rest of the Jaguar ecosystem.  I figure I could speculate about what it would cost to build a car if I knew how much an engine might cost, but getting to the point of (knowing the price of) something Turnkey is still going to require lots more information.

[phoenixdownita]

43 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

...

 And even if you are talking facts (i.e. the price of a CD Drive unit in '93),  you're still going to be guessing when it comes to the engineering costs involved in turning those drives into something integrated into the rest of the Jaguar ecosystem.  I figure I could speculate about what it would cost to build a car if I knew how much an engine might cost, but getting to the point of (knowing the price of) something Turnkey is still going to require lots more information.

True, it's all speculative/guesswork.

[Zerosquare]

4 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

The 1X Sega CD, with additional hardware/smarts, was $299 in the US at launch in late 1992. There's no reason to think that Atari couldn't produce an integrated "dumb" drive for release one year later other than Atari not being able to come out with their actual CD drive add-on until September 1995.

 

I guess to put things further into perspective, the Sega CD by itself outsold the Jaguar console's lifetime sales (including liquidation) in less than six months, and that was not exactly considered a smashing success. Of course, the Sega CD itself also had over 200 releases (across Genesis and 32X), while the Jaguar and Jaguar CD combined had just over 60. So again, it's probably unfair to treat the Atari of this era as contenders in any way for anything, even with these "what if?" scenarios. The "what if?" probably has to go back quite a bit further.

Exactly. When you look at how badly Atari was managed, how little money they had, and how short-staffed they were compared to companies like Sega and Sony, it's already a miracle that the Jaguar actually got released and managed to survive for a few years. Including even a "dumb" CD-ROM drive requires additional and significant manpower, time and money ; luxuries than the 1993 Atari couldn't afford. Since both the Lynx and their computer business were winding down by then, and they were competing against many other console manufacturers, they had to release something.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Zerosquare

[Leeroy ST]

7 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

I cannot find anything in there <200US$, the Sony CDU31A is a 2x IDE unit but it appears it's 238US$ ... granted it's a Sony, so maybe you can find something "much" cheaper.

There are different products at different shops advertised across different magazines and newspapers. For example for <200 1993:

 

 

.

 

.

 

 

 

To be clear the last one with $99 drives was in December near the end of the year.

 

 

Quote

and yet Sega couldn't launch the CDX for <399US$ in Apr 1994, and even the Sega CD2 in late 1993 was 229US$ ... 

In this case I just don't think Atari could have pulled a Jag+CD combo at <300US$ 

The CD based Playdia released in the ballpark of $250 in 1994, around Jaguar pricing. Also same year as Saturn and PCFX, both mismanaged projects with custom parts and changes late in the game before launch with expensive internals. Those problems boosted their prices, not because primarily of their CD drives. 

 

CD drives were not 50-89% of the product price at that time, and I dont know why so many think that. You have to consider other factors that add to a consoles price. They aren't the only CD compatible machines on the market, so they shouldn't get an exclusive premium specifically on the CD drive. 

 

Again if even c-tier drive and electronic companies can start products in 92-93 and have them sub $100 FOR CONSUMERS by 94-95 as shown previously than Atari could too. 

 

I am just not sure they were working on an CD addon in 93 when it was announced (along with the Jaguar before launch.) I think they wanted potential negative coverage off their backs for not having a CD drive built in, as they were getting hotter with consumers, the press, and tech companies. Of course they ended up with negative coverage regardless lol.

 

Also the Jag+CD combo unit was a hypothetical from Bill. I'm only talking about a CD only unit from launch in the title.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[phoenixdownita]

17 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

The CD based Playdia released in the ballpark of $250 in 1994, around Jaguar pricing. Also same year as Saturn and PCFX, both mismanaged projects with custom parts and changes late in the game before launch with expensive internals. Those problems boosted their prices, not because primarily of their CD drives. 

 

...

The Playdia launched at the end of 1994, the Jag one whole year earlier, you can't use that as an example that the Jaguar could have had the same price c'mon, if Atari could have sold the cart based unit at 199US$ at launch they would have (they reduced the price and sold the "core system" in March 1995 for 150US$ no pack in game ... that because their sales numbers were already bad, the timing wasn't terrible mind you as the PS1/Sat had not launched yet in US at that point but they were a known quantity already from the JP launch and magazine previews).

 

From your ads aside the Philips/Mitsumi at 179/189 the rest of the cheap examples do not say 1x or 2x, so it is hard to judge what you get really.

 

You keep on going on consumer sub 99$, the example you showed was for a KOSS CD player (CDP300 it seems) which is 1x as that is all that is needed to play music and it tells little else, I'm pretty sure in the 8years since the first portable audio CD player was launched by Sony at 350US$ the price would have gone down in the portable audio CD player market segments. 

 

No console launched with a 2x drive in 1993 for less than 300/350, the Jag launched for 250, adding a 2x CD then (or replacing the cart slot if you prefer) would have added at least 50/75US$ to the final price, again and obviously in my opinion.

 

So in the end and as somewhat expected I think we'll agree to disagree, I personally have decided that the story I believe is that Atari could not pull off a CD based console at end of 1993 for < 300/350 as such they rather went with a cart based system for 249US$, you are fully entitled to your opinions and theories of course.

 

[Arcadia]

Worth noting here, speaking of optical drives and how far in advance you have to factor in price, is that Xbox One S, which had UHD BD-ROM, released mere months before PS4 Pro back in 2016. The former had it despite being a budget offering, while the latter didn't despite being a premium version of PS4, probably because Sony had finalised the specs far in advance and didn't consider it economically viable to include it. 

[Leeroy ST]

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

The Playdia launched at the end of 1994, the Jag one whole year earlier, 

The Jag launched fully in 94, so did the pcfx, the Saturn, and others. And the Playdia(in Sept) would have been in development at the same time a built in CD (only) Jaguar would if it were to have come out, and same time as pcfx and SAT started proper development, 1992.

 

You aren't actually addressing one of the major issues, that game consoles have multiple reasons for their prices. Not just the disc drives. There's also this stranger trend of acting like game consoles specifically are on an island. They are not the only CD compatible devices sold in stores or ads so why would they have exclusive issues regarding CD drive pricing?

 

The Playdia launched in the area of $250 same price as the jag, Playdia came with costly video tech (arguably second best FMV at the time only behind PCFX) and a wireless controller. With standard CD video, and a wired controller it would cost even less. Looking at IR tech at the time it could possibly be $200 or a bit less just by using a wired controller, while still keeping the (then) high quality video specs.

 

It's not the CD drive that made the SAT, pcfx, and post launch 3DO $400 in 94. Same with the high price of the CDX. (The turbo duo has also been brought up, but that was released in 91 in japan as mentioned before, and nearly unchanged at the US launch in 92, a market Nec was already practically dead in. The 93 revision never came to the US, in jp it gave the console around a $200 price cut.) It was other factors primarily.

 

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

If Atari could have sold the cart based unit at 199US$ at launch they would have 

We aren't talking about the cart based unit, we are talking about if the cd was built in with no carts. Even then, there are many components to that as well, poor cost management, costly partnerships, etc.

 

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

From your ads aside the Philips/Mitsumi at 179/189 the rest of the cheap examples do not say 1x or 2x, so it is hard to judge what you get really.

1x drives were not common in US then, and if found unlikely to cost 100+ in most cases. However, This was a bit different in japan were 1x lasted a bit longer, and due to possibly the economy and manufacture industry issues in the short term, 2x took a bit longer to drop in price, but then quickly dominated.

 

This is why the early FM Towns Marty was the only next gen CD japanese game console that had a 1x drive that generation, and why the Apple partnership with Bandai resulted in a 4x drive.

 

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

1x as that is all that is needed to play music and it tells little else, 

This assumption is inaccurate, CD players ditched 1x as everyone else did, making them not easy (but not impossible) to find outside clearance. That was starting the year before (92), and eventually 2x became standard.

 

Here's an example of why 2x was important for even cd players, by more than just playing audio:

 

"Jogging music lovers will have a CD player they can use on the run by
this April. The American electronics company Fisher, which is owned by Sanyo
of Japan, has developed a portable CD player which plays the disc in a completely
different way from other players so that it does not lose its place when
jogged.

 

 

In any CD player, control circuits guide a laser so that it follows
the spiral track of data pits on the rotating disc. A sensor detects the
reflected light which is then converted into a sound signal. The tracks
on the disc are only 1.6 micrometres apart. If the player is jogged, the
servo cannot keep the laser on track and the music stops until the laser
finds its correct place again.

In the Fisher player the disc rotates at twice the normal speed so that
the data is read off the disc twice as fast. All the data is continually
fed into a 4-megabyte solid-state memory inside the player. From there it
is fed at normal speed to conventional circuits which convert it to analogue
sound signals.

 

Under normal circumstances, only half the digital data in the store
is read. If the player is jogged, the data fed into the memory briefly stops
while the laser moves back to its correct position. Because there is always
excess data in the memory, it can continue to feed it out to the listener
while the laser catches up."

 

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

No console launched with a 2x drive in 1993 for less than 300.

Suddenly specifying 93 is an interesting backflip, but regardless $300 is a marginal bump. 

 

My argument has always been that if the Jag released as a CD console instead of cart there would be at MOST a minimum bump ($300 is only a $50 increase over cart Jag.) IF that. Which is why CD drive prices have been brought up.

 

If you are saying that a Jag with built in CD would/could be $300, then we are in agreement as that's the marginal bump range I originally had in mind. The argument I've been going against are people who think a drive would jump the price much more, even up to $500. 

 

I still believe it would be possible to release a built in CD Jag for $250 given drive prices, but $300 has also been in my range. It seems you have a similar range in mind, at least half-way.

 

So we are at least partially in agreement. ?

 

[agradeneu]

10 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

 

My argument has always been that if the Jag released as a CD console instead of cart there would be at MOST a minimum bump ($300 is only a $50 increase over cart Jag.) IF that. Which is why CD drive prices have been brought up.

 

If you are saying that a Jag with built in CD would/could be $300, then we are in agreement as that's the marginal bump range I originally had in mind. The argument I've been going against are people who think a drive would jump the price much more, even up to $500. 

 

I still believe it would be possible to release a built in CD Jag for $250 given drive prices, but $300 has also been in my range. It seems you have a similar range in mind, at least half-way.

 

So we are at least partially in agreement. ?

 

 

 

Atari planned to release the Jaguar much earlier than they did.

It's irrelevant that you think the Jaguar was released in 1994 when the production model was finalized and released to test markets in Nov. 1993. 

 

It appears unreasonable to me to assume a price point of 250 for a Jaguar CD system when Atari already did cost cutting measures to release the Jaguar for 250 retail price.

 

In the end, we have to respect the facts and not get loose on wild assumptions. 

It was already explained why Atari opted against CD, because it would have made the system too pricey. In 1992, CD drives were not ready for mass market levels.

They wanted to make money on the hardware and they tried to keep costs under control.

 

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

Quote

 was already explained why Atari opted against CD, because it would have made the system too pricey. In 1992, 

 

 And it wouldnt.

 

The irrelevant issue is someone taking me saying Jaguar launched in 94, to deceptively spin that into acting I hadn't been talking about a standalone Jag CD production starting in 1992.

 

Starting with the top of the VERY LAST POST BEFORE that clearly wasn't read:

 

12 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

There are different products at different shops advertised across different And the Playdia(in Sept) would have been in development at the same time a built in CD (only) Jaguar would if it were to have come out, and same time as pcfx and SAT started proper development, 1992.

 

And repeated many times back from there, examples:

12 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

There are different products at different shops advertised across different Again if even c-tier drive and electronic companies can start products in 92-93 and have them sub $100 FOR CONSUMERS by 94-95 as shown previously than Atari could too. 

 

12 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

In 94-95. Several of these products were designed 1-2 years ahead.

And many times before these too.

 

Of course this won't be addressed, it will be skipped because this certain individual can't respond.

 

.

 

There is no special "Atari CD drive tax" exclusive to them. Many products sub-$100 in 94-95 were starting proper production/planning/designing in 1992. Even the Craig-tier manufacturers of that time.

 

There is zero reason why Atari couldn't release a $250-300 Jaguar with no cart and built in CD. A built in featureless plain 2x drive.

 

And the low prices were for consumers, as shown you coukd get $100> consumer drives from late late 93-95, any area, Internal drive, external drive, CD player, cd compatible electronic device. 

 

Companies in a deal buying in bulk could have, of course, hit low prices with a drive in 92, just like almost everyone else. Then sell at affordable consumer prices in 94-95, just like almost everyone else. Atari wasn't going to hit anything higher than basic low tier 

 

Another thing not considered is costs can change when you near the release date, especially when dealing with 1-2 years gaps before the product launches. Company A could plan a $200 product early and have it at $100 at launch. Still happens now. Now only could companies get decent prices in bulk in 92, but they also ride the rapid price decreases just like consumers did over the next two years.

 

Not surprising likely a lot of the 1992 produced products releasing in 94-95 started off with higher prices planned, then changed to sub $100 for consumers later. Happens on the business side too.

 

Of course all the linked sources will likely be ignored by same certain user, when you ignore sources from back then you know you aren't in reality. Oh look at that post below this, I was right! What a coward, just skip over his posts.

 

Quote

In 1992, CD drives were not ready for mass market 

Late 92 is when the boom started. 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[agradeneu]

10 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

And it wouldnt.

 

The irrelevant issue is someone taking me saying Jaguar launched in 94, to deceptively spin that into acting I hadn't been talking about a standalone Jag CD production starting in 1992.

 

Starting with the top of the VERY LAST POST BEFORE that clearly wasn't read:

 

 

And repeated many times back from there, examples:

 

And many times before these too.

 

There is no special "Atari CD drive tax" exclusive to them. Many products sub-$100 in 94-95 were starting proper production/planning/designing in 1992. Even the Craig-tier manufacturers of that time.

 

There is zero reason why Atari couldn't release a $250-300 Jaguar with no cart and built in CD. A built in featureless plain 2x drive.

 

And the low prices are for consumers, as shown you can get $100> consumer drives from late late 93-95, any area, Internal drive, external drive, CD player, cd compatible electronic device. 

 

Company in a deal buying in bulk could of course hit low prices with a drive in 92, just like almost everyone else. Then sell at affordable consumer prices in 94-95, just like almost everyone else.

 

Another thing not considered is costs can change when you hear the release date, especisllt when dealing with 1-2 years gaps before the product launches. Company A could plan a $200 product early and have it at $100 lat launch. Still happens now.

 

Late 92 is when the boom started. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am starting to believe you are living in an aternate reality. 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by agradeneu

[Leeroy ST]

^adds nothing, no sources, ignored sources actually posted. Nothing new can't respond if you have nothing^adds nothing, no sources, ignored sources actually posted. Nothing new, can't respond if you have nothing. Almost thought he was going to try this time, it's not happening, best to let him flail in his bubble.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Leeroy ST]

Anyway, reposting my response to the more honest user, who has actually directly responded to points and sources:

 

  9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

The Playdia launched at the end of 1994, the Jag one whole year earlier, 

The Jag launched fully in 94, so did the pcfx, the Saturn, and others. And the Playdia(in Sept) would have been in development at the same time a built in CD (only) Jaguar would if it were to have come out, and same time as pcfx and SAT started proper development, 1992.

 

You aren't actually addressing one of the major issues, that game consoles have multiple reasons for their prices. Not just the disc drives. There's also this stranger trend of acting like game consoles specifically are on an island. They are not the only CD compatible devices sold in stores or ads so why would they have exclusive issues regarding CD drive pricing?

 

The Playdia launched in the area of $250 same price as the jag, Playdia came with costly video tech (arguably second best FMV at the time only behind PCFX) and a wireless controller. With standard CD video, and a wired controller it would cost even less. Looking at IR tech at the time it could possibly be $200 or a bit less just by using a wired controller, while still keeping the (then) high quality video specs.

 

It's not the CD drive that made the SAT, pcfx, and post launch 3DO $400 in 94. Same with the high price of the CDX. (The turbo duo has also been brought up, but that was released in 91 in japan as mentioned before, and nearly unchanged at the US launch in 92, a market Nec was already practically dead in. The 93 revision never came to the US, in jp it gave the console around a $200 price cut.) It was other factors primarily.

 

  9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

If Atari could have sold the cart based unit at 199US$ at launch they would have 

We aren't talking about the cart based unit, we are talking about if the cd was built in with no carts. Even then, there are many components to that as well, poor cost management, costly partnerships, etc.

 

  9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

From your ads aside the Philips/Mitsumi at 179/189 the rest of the cheap examples do not say 1x or 2x, so it is hard to judge what you get really.

1x drives were not common in US then, and if found unlikely to cost 100+ in most cases. However, This was a bit different in japan were 1x lasted a bit longer, and due to possibly the economy and manufacture industry issues in the short term, 2x took a bit longer to drop in price, but then quickly dominated.

 

This is why the early FM Towns Marty was the only next gen CD japanese game console that had a 1x drive that generation, and why the Apple partnership with Bandai resulted in a 4x drive.

 

  9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

1x as that is all that is needed to play music and it tells little else, 

This assumption is inaccurate, CD players ditched 1x as everyone else did, making them not easy (but not impossible) to find outside clearance. That was starting the year before (92), and eventually 2x became standard.

 

Here's an example of why 2x was important for even cd players, by more than just playing audio:

 

"Jogging music lovers will have a CD player they can use on the run by
this April. The American electronics company Fisher, which is owned by Sanyo
of Japan, has developed a portable CD player which plays the disc in a completely
different way from other players so that it does not lose its place when
jogged.

 

 

In any CD player, control circuits guide a laser so that it follows
the spiral track of data pits on the rotating disc. A sensor detects the
reflected light which is then converted into a sound signal. The tracks
on the disc are only 1.6 micrometres apart. If the player is jogged, the
servo cannot keep the laser on track and the music stops until the laser
finds its correct place again.

In the Fisher player the disc rotates at twice the normal speed so that
the data is read off the disc twice as fast. All the data is continually
fed into a 4-megabyte solid-state memory inside the player. From there it
is fed at normal speed to conventional circuits which convert it to analogue
sound signals.

 

Under normal circumstances, only half the digital data in the store
is read. If the player is jogged, the data fed into the memory briefly stops
while the laser moves back to its correct position. Because there is always
excess data in the memory, it can continue to feed it out to the listener
while the laser catches up."

 

  9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

No console launched with a 2x drive in 1993 for less than 300.

Suddenly specifying 93 is an interesting backflip, but regardless $300 is a marginal bump. 

 

My argument has always been that if the Jag released as a CD console instead of cart there would be at MOST a minimum bump ($300 is only a $50 increase over cart Jag.) IF that. Which is why CD drive prices have been brought up.

 

If you are saying that a Jag with built in CD would/could be $300, then we are in agreement as that's the marginal bump range I originally had in mind. The argument I've been going against are people who think a drive would jump the price much more, even up to $500. 

 

I still believe it would be possible to release a built in CD Jag for $250 given drive prices, but $300 has also been in my range. It seems you have a similar range in mind, at least half-way.

 

So we are at least partially in agreement. ?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[+Sauron]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

 

 

I am starting to believe you are living in an aternate reality. 

 

You're just now starting to believe that? I thought it was readily apparent at least 10 pages back.

 

[+madman]

Me every time I click on this thread:

[Sporadic]

[Lostdragon]

Might as well get the Atari UK side of things in before thread locked. 

 

 

Zapiy

Do you think the Jag should have been a CD machine in the first place?

Darryl

Only from a cost of goods point of view. I think the games that came on the cartridges were quite strong (and in some cases excellent), but would have been great to have the toilet option at the start, yes!

 

RougeTrooper

When defending the Jaguar, you made some very valid points about it’s power in terms of link-up speed, Data-Bus, etc etc, but you also said it was on par with the Saturn and in some areas, even more powerful, was that comment a miss-understanding? Or were you thinking of something other than areas like 3D and texture mapping as readers of C+VG pointed out, 32X destroyed Jaguar in terms of polygons with Virtua Fighter and 3DO had far better texture mapping. Looking back, do you feel you’d made a rod for your own back?

Darryl

Maybe it’s selective memory or maybe there is only so much tech data my brain can handle, but whilst I have a good recollection of my own products, I really have retained absolutely nothing about the technology that was inside the Saturn. Because I do not come from an engineering background, I tend to lean on others and soak up like a sponge regarding the key bullet points to focus on in this area, so if I was talking bollocks at the time (and it has been known) my only defence is that I was badly advised. 

RougeTrooper

Another point you were keen to stress was the disadvantage Jaguar had next to Saturn and PS1 was that it was cart based and they were CD based. But as soon as Jaguar had it’s CD drive, it’d be a level playing field. Was there ‘pressure from above’ to make claims like this and the ones above, in magazines at the time or did you personally feel they were valid points?

Darryl

I’m sure I believed them when I said them. Inside every organisation you have the experts in these fields telling you this stuff, and because they’ve been right before, you assume they’ll be right again, so as the mouthpiece, you take the message out in full faith. There was never any pressure from above and never any deliberate intention to mislead, just an eventual inability to deliver on a promise, I guess.

 

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Zapiy

Do you think the Jag should have been a CD machine in the first place?

Darryl

Only from a cost of goods point of view. I think the games that came on the cartridges were quite strong (and in some cases excellent), but would have been great to have the toilet option at the start, yes!

 

 

 

Hmmmmmm, interesting.

 

2 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

I tend to lean on others and soak up like a sponge regarding the key bullet points to focus on in this area, so if I was talking bollocks at the time (and it has been known) my only defence is that I was badly advised. 

RougeTrooper

Another point you were keen to stress was the disadvantage Jaguar had next to Saturn and PS1 was that it was cart based and they were CD based. But as soon as Jaguar had it’s CD drive, it’d be a level playing field. Was there ‘pressure from above’ to make claims like this and the ones above, in magazines at the time or did you personally feel they were valid points?

Darryl

I’m sure I believed them when I said them. Inside every organisation you have the experts in these fields telling you this stuff, and because they’ve been right before, you assume they’ll be right again, so as the mouthpiece, you take the message out in full faith. There was never any pressure from above and never any deliberate intention to mislead, just an eventual inability to deliver on a promise, I guess.

 

Hmmmm

 

Just another average day at Atari Corp from the looks of it. Reads more like he was a victim from the top. 

 

I am curious which games he thought were "excellent" though. Probably the usual group AVP, Tempest etc

 

[roots.genoa]

Hmmmmm

 

[Pete5125]

9 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

Hmmmmmm, interesting.

 

Hmmmm

 

Just another average day at Atari Corp from the looks of it. Reads more like he was a victim from the top. 

 

I am curious which games he thought were "excellent" though. Probably the usual group AVP, Tempest etc

 

It's hard to know, Rayman was identical or similar to playstation and Saturn, same with NBA JAM, say what you want but if you look at the Chritmas offerings of year 1 playstation and Saturn, Jag looked to be able to do what the competition was doing, and with the CD who knows, the cart size with Atari being cheap and not necessarily having the AAA development teams of Sony/Sega, maybe plus breathing in the Atari fumes we all enjoy.

 

Also the original 96 lineup, was again competition with ps/Saturn, before Jack Came in and canceled everything.

 

The thing is Sony had experienced teams of 20 on an easy to program 3d monster, vs Ataris groups of 3 on a hard to program machine.

 

Sony had a better product for consumers, at the same price point after I added on the CD..

 

I do remember that Christmas of 95 I was still a proud Jaguar supporter, roomate got Playstation brought it home, with theme park and zoop, we laughed told him Jag killed those games with A vs P and Doom, NBA jam just came out and MK3 was on its way, well by spring he has tekken, and destruction durby well sorry Atari doesn't have a single driving game that good or fighter...

 

Atari has all these games in the pipeline, next gen magazine promises, nope the dream is over as soon as it started.

 

Again living in the world seeing what's in the pipeline, seeing what competition currently is releasing vs future releases, yeah plus at the end of the day you have the only 64bit system, how can 3 different 32 bit systems clean your clock, doesn't add up...

[Leeroy ST]

12 hours ago, Pete5125 said:

say what you want but if you look at the Chritmas offerings of year 1 playstation and Saturn, Jag looked to be able to do what the competition was doing, 

In many areas this would make sense, but the main headlining games pushed by the companies themselves, the press, mags, and even demo kiosks were Daytona and Ridge Racer for either system, at launch.

 

I find it odd how he would not have known about either of those two games, unless he did know but didn't consider racing games a big deal.

 

In the 3DOs case I can kind of see it, while they had games Jag hadn't matched yet, in 95 Gex was the most popular game on the system, so if you put 30fps Gex next to 60fps Rayman well...

 

There you go.

 

 

 

 

 

[Clint Thompson]

13 hours ago, Pete5125 said:

The thing is Sony had experienced teams of 20 on an easy to program 3d monster, vs Ataris groups of 3 on a hard to program machine.

Any machine is hard to program for if it's:

 

1. The first machine you've ever programmed for

2. Your first 3D program of any kind

 

The majority of games that would be considered a failure for the Jag like Supercross X and Checkered Flag were just that, a programmers first attempt at creating a game on an arguably complex new game console. Add 3D in the mix and they didn't stand a chance against Atari's unrealistic deadlines.

 

Anyone can say what they want about FFL not being a good game (it's true) but you can't deny that it runs great and looked amazing. The game play itself just wasn't very good. They should have stuck to making a kick ass Tekken or Virtua Fighter clone instead of doing what they always do and take what was suppose to be a fun and addicting arcade fighter then morph it into this unique spinoff of a complex move acquiring soul sucking game that took part of your life just to complete a single round.

 

Interestingly, Jeff Minter thought the machine was easy to program for and claimed it to be a beast. It's a shame they only managed to get Minter to do the few games and the VLM but at least we got that. It would have also been really interesting to see another 3D title from Virtuality regardless of the game. Martin Brownlow was basically the 3D Jeff Minter for the Jag and he never really got the chance to shine. The marvel that is Missile Command VR locked away from only a few that may ever get to experience it at a game convention is truly a shame. It's another great example of what the Jaguar was capable of. Hard to see it though when the game is crippled with a joypad and crawling slow movement as a result.

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

Anyone can say what they want about FFL not being a good game (it's true) but you can't deny that it runs great and looked amazing. The game play itself just wasn't very good. They should have stuck to making a kick ass Tekken or Virtua Fighter clone instead of doing what they always do and take what was suppose to be a fun and addicting arcade fighter then morph it into this unique spinoff of a complex move acquiring soul sucking game that took part of your life just to complete a single round.

While the result of trying to be different failed for Fight For Life (and several other games) the change itself at least made sense.

 

By the time Fight for Life came out between 93-96 there were a crap ton of 3D fighters, clones or otherwise maybe over 30-40+ releases, and that's just on consoles. Not counting computer 3D fighters like your FX Fighters etc.

 

It was probably better to try and differentiate instead of playing it safe in a genre that was starting to consolidate around a few franchises. A lot of 3D fighters at that point had small audiences, even games like Toshinden that were initially more popular due to the novelty of 3D fighting being new, later became a niche nobody franchise on the same console.

 

The gamble didn't work out, but at least the gamble made sense.

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Lostdragon]

10 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

Any machine is hard to program for if it's:

 

1. The first machine you've ever programmed for

2. Your first 3D program of any kind

 

The majority of games that would be considered a failure for the Jag like Supercross X and Checkered Flag were just that, a programmers first attempt at creating a game on an arguably complex new game console. Add 3D in the mix and they didn't stand a chance against Atari's unrealistic deadlines.

 

Anyone can say what they want about FFL not being a good game (it's true) but you can't deny that it runs great and looked amazing. The game play itself just wasn't very good. They should have stuck to making a kick ass Tekken or Virtua Fighter clone instead of doing what they always do and take what was suppose to be a fun and addicting arcade fighter then morph it into this unique spinoff of a complex move acquiring soul sucking game that took part of your life just to complete a single round.

 

Interestingly, Jeff Minter thought the machine was easy to program for and claimed it to be a beast. It's a shame they only managed to get Minter to do the few games and the VLM but at least we got that. It would have also been really interesting to see another 3D title from Virtuality regardless of the game. Martin Brownlow was basically the 3D Jeff Minter for the Jag and he never really got the chance to shine. The marvel that is Missile Command VR locked away from only a few that may ever get to experience it at a game convention is truly a shame. It's another great example of what the Jaguar was capable of. Hard to see it though when the game is crippled with a joypad and crawling slow movement as a result.

C. F is a bit of an odd case. 

 

It was coder Rob Dibley's first commercial title I believe, but Jason and Chris Kingsley themselves did have previous 3D experience, with PC Eye Of The Storm and this Viking Longboat Vs Dragons 3D demo they pitched to Atari UK. 

 

It's this very 3D work Jason Kingsley brags about that got them the attention from Atari they needed to become Jaguar developers. 

 

 

They were just utterly clueless on how to make a decent driving game as they had no experience with this genre. 

 

 

Zone Hunter was down for Jaguar VR, but even at the time it was made clear the polygon models etc would be reduced, this was hoped to of been offset somewhat by expanding on the gameplay where possible.