Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[Lostdragon]

3 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Wait, was Trevor Crescent started as a Panther game, or was that a mistake included in the interview?

Interview was done back when I first started looking into Panther games and Frank Gasking was in contact with Susan Mcbride, she stop all comms with him, with no warning, so i started asking people i was chatting with. 

 

It was since confirmed as Jaguar only, but B. J had this to say on it.. 

 

 

I never saw a Panther in any form the entire time I was there, and in fact it was almost never mentioned except as a footnote in the development of the Jaguar.  I never saw any indication it ever reached a mature-enough state to develop software for.  From all the game docs I saw, none of the games I worked on were ever anything but Jaguar games.

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, Lostdragon said:

Interview was done back when I first started looking into Panther games and Frank Gasking was in contact with Susan Mcbride, she stop all comms with him, with no warning, so i started asking people i was chatting with. 

 

It was since confirmed as Jaguar only, but B. J had this to say on it.. 

 

 

I never saw a Panther in any form the entire time I was there, and in fact it was almost never mentioned except as a footnote in the development of the Jaguar.  I never saw any indication it ever reached a mature-enough state to develop software for.  From all the game docs I saw, none of the games I worked on were ever anything but Jaguar games.

I feel the Panther was mismanaged too badly to ever be viable or what became the Jag caught up so fast Panther never made it to the software phase.

 

But yes the story behind Crescent goes with Atari really not caring about game quality, as long as it looks like a next gen game, and/or looks good in screenshots.

 

Iirc Crescent didn't have music either. Been awhile.

[Bill Loguidice]

Considering how basic it was, it's not a stretch to think that Crescent Galaxy could have started life as a Panther game, but then one would wonder why it wasn't more developed/sophisticated. I guess based on what we know and what Lostdragon reported, it's easier to believe that 99% of Jaguar stuff was wholly (or at least substantially in ways that it mattered) originated on that platform.

[Bill Loguidice]

Just now, Leeroy ST said:

I feel the Panther was mismanaged too badly to ever be viable or what became the Jag caught up so fast Panther never made it to the software phase.

 

But yes the story behind Crescent goes with Atari really not caring about game quality, as long as it looks like a next gen game, and/or looks good in screenshots.

 

Iirc Crescent didn't have music either. Been awhile.

I've speculated in the past that Atari missing out on having a 16-bit console was a big factor in being so far behind with software, distribution, and other things with the Jaguar. Even if the Panther ended up doing Jaguar numbers, it could have led to better things foundationally for the Jaguar. Of course, the Panther also would have been have to have been released early enough and be at least slightly better than its competitors in most areas to make up for the given lack of software it would have suffered.

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I've speculated in the past that Atari missing out on having a 16-bit console was a big factor in being so far behind with software, distribution, and other things with the Jaguar. Even if the Panther ended up doing Jaguar numbers, it could have led to better things foundationally for the Jaguar. Of course, the Panther also would have been have to have been released early enough and be at least slightly better than its competitors in most areas to make up for the given lack of software it would have suffered.

You guys have me reminiscing about the early days of research into what was viable to cover in the GTW book. 

 

Frank had approached Bob Armour, hoping for additional info on Murder on the C64 (he suddenly stopped comms as well).. 

 

Susan Mcbride for additional info on Electricop on the 7800.

 

I asked if he could enquire about Crescent Galaxy, not just the Panther claims but did she have anything on the earliest Jaguar demo supposedly shown at an Atari shareholder meeting, where the main ship sprite was an actual Jaguar console, with Trevor sticking his head out the top. 

 

Crescent Galaxy was her baby. 

 

 

Sadly nothing from her, but the info back from Tengen, Domark, Tiertex sources, others like Guildo H and Peter Johnson and the soundbites we'd found from Rob Nicholoson, let alone the interview with Jim Gregory, from HMS, Joel S and others at Atari Corp, sources from ATD etc, convinced us there simply wasn't the legs to cover Atari's ill-fated attempts at a 16-bit console. 

 

Project Robin was looked into, fellow associate of Rob Zybdel's was spoken with, but too many years passed to real anything but them working on original games for it, but couldn't remember what they were or how many. 

 

Understandable given the time that had passed. 

 

 

The Imagitec Design sources gave the most, ahem, open responses when Martin Hooley's RG Magazine etc Panther claims were put to some of them.. 

 

"I can see why this is frustrating and I wouldn’t want to badmouth Martin as he gave me a job which got me started in the industry, but he was certainly a character or even a ‘cowboy’ in the best possible sense.  He’s either bullshitting still to this day or just plain can’t remember anything"

 

 

 

And from another... 

 

 

"Imagitec often had games “using as yet unseen technological advancements” in development, it sounded good and helped Martin Hooley, the studio owner, raise funding to keep the studio going. In truth, I have no idea if any of these titles were ever really meant to be completed."

 

 

You soon realised just how much Martin had used the press, even back then

 

 

 

As for why Crescent Galaxy wasn't developed further.. 

 

Leonard wanted us to appropriate a strict 'roll up your sleeves' approach for Jag music composition. It was about using trial-and-error combined with a more formal 'engineering' approach rather than depending on automated toolsets to do the grunt work. We did have some GUI tools for getting at the DSP synthesis engine that Lynett had been contracted to provide, but we were expected to do the charting and calculation that enabled music/SFX to play without crashing.

 

 

What was the Tramiel philosophy of coding games?

I can't speak for everyone, but Leonard was pretty old-skool regarding Crescent Galaxy. At one point I remember complaining to him that we needed more game design for the levels. His reply was that side scrollers were too dynamic to justify lengthy design, that the best way to do it was to toss a bunch of NPC scripts at the game engine, then test hell out of the results until the team and testers deemed the result 'fun'.

 

http://www.ataritimes.com/index.php?ArticleIDX=282

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Lostdragon

[Leeroy ST]

ST console as originally planned in 89 should have been done honestly. It's the XEGS but better marketed, more powerful, 3D capable, and if they scrap the "can change into a computer" feature, be affordably priced.

 

Plus they would just transfer existing ST third parties over. So that would solve one of Atari's ongoing issues post 2600 for their consoles. It would work well for a later CD Jaguar as well, third party support wouldn't jump into an unknown like they did with 3DO and current Jaguar, they would have worked with Atari on the ST console in this case, and would have some sense of what direction the company was going in.

 

As for whether the ST console would sell more than a few million units. I guess that would depend on if games like Midwinter, Robocop 3(D), Hunter, Castle Master, and No Second Prize could sell systems to console gamers like Sonic 1, Star Fox, DKC, Mortal Kombat 2, and Super Metroid could.

 

But in either case you end up better than what we got: scrapped ST console, a Panther that never got out of phase 1, and a Jaguar that Atari could only produce 20,000 of in their test run while discontinuing all their other product lines to focus on one unprofitable machine. On top of scaring third parties away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lostdragon]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

ST console as originally planned in 89 should have been done honestly. It's the XEGS but better marketed, more powerful, 3D capable, and if they scrap the "can change into a computer" feature, be affordably priced.

 

Plus they would just transfer existing ST third parties over. So that would solve one of Atari's ongoing issues post 2600 for their consoles. It would work well for a later CD Jaguar as well, third party support wouldn't jump into an unknown like they did with 3DO and current Jaguar, they would have worked with Atari on the ST console in this case, and would have some sense of what direction the company was going in.

 

As for whether the ST console would sell more than a few million units. I guess that would depend on if games like Midwinter, Robocop 3(D), Hunter, Castle Master, and No Second Prize could sell systems to console gamers like Sonic 1, Star Fox, DKC, Mortal Kombat 2, and Super Metroid could.

 

But in either case you end up better than what we got: scrapped ST console, a Panther that never got out of phase 1, and a Jaguar that Atari could only produce 20,000 of in their test run while discontinuing all their other product lines to focus on one unprofitable machine. On top of scaring third parties away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It  was originally planned to be released a a budget price and it's launch games to be the ST conversions of:

 

Moon Patrol, Joust, Crystal Castles, Battlezone etc. 

 

 

Which makes it a crying shame Rob Zybdel's associate couldn't remember what the original titles he and Rob were working on, as the above conversions were something of a mixed bag. 

 

 

The XEGS was everything the 5200 should of been, but by the time it arrived the hardware was long in the tooth and the machine itself poorly supported. 

 

The STE was too little, too late and not the Amiga beater Atari had promised. 

 

The CDST was annouced and nothing came of it. 

 

 

Atari couldn't produce, by that I think you mean supply, IBM had the Assembly and Q. A test etc Jaguar machines, more than limited numbers for launch, as Bill Rehbock explained. 

 

 

"Atari has 2 companies manufacturing the Tom and Jerry chipset. An unnamed Japanese company is the original manufacturer. However, they were
only able to provide 50,000 units this year, hence the low yield for the test
marketing campaign. However, Motorola will begin production soon and will provide 1 million units for 1994."

 

If the chip fabrication plants couldn't guarantee, let along produce the custom chips in sufficient numbers IBM couldn't assemble and test the hardware and Atari were left with insufficient supplies to go around. 

 

The question of whether they would of be wiser to focus on a UK launch first often comes up, but given how the Falcon had fared, the Amiga overtaken the ST once the price had dropped and both the Game Gear and Gameboy outsold the Lynx in the UK, it's doubtful it would of made much difference. 

 

Atari didn't so much scare developers away, though it did pull some stupid moves, not wanting Audiogenic as it didn't class them as a big name, announcing Team 17 as a developer, before they'd even recieved dev kits.. 

 

 

Publishers simply knew Atari lacked the resources to make the Jaguar a commercial success and either weren't going to support it full stop, would wait until it sold 500,000 units before supporting it, or gave it token support until the Next Generation systems from Sega, Nintendo and Sony were ready. 

 

 

ATD stated the contractual obligation they had to produce Battlemorph for the Jaguar CD, meant they were late getting their first generation Playstation software out. 

 

Core Design said Sega were where the money was, they paid well and they paid on time. 
 

[Leeroy ST]

3 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

It  was originally planned to be released a a budget price and it's launch games to be the ST conversions of:

 

Moon Patrol, Joust, Crystal Castles, Battlezone etc. 

 

 

Which makes it a crying shame Rob Zybdel's associate couldn't remember what the original titles he and Rob were working on, as the above conversions were something of a mixed bag. 

 

 

The XEGS was everything the 5200 should of been, but by the time it arrived the hardware was long in the tooth and the machine itself poorly supported. 

 

The STE was too little, too late and not the Amiga beater Atari had promised. 

 

The CDST was annouced and nothing came of it. 

 

 

Atari couldn't produce, by that I think you mean supply, IBM had the Assembly and Q. A test etc Jaguar machines, more than limited numbers for launch, as Bill Rehbock explained. 

 

 

"Atari has 2 companies manufacturing the Tom and Jerry chipset. An unnamed Japanese company is the original manufacturer. However, they were
only able to provide 50,000 units this year, hence the low yield for the test
marketing campaign. However, Motorola will begin production soon and will provide 1 million units for 1994."

 

If the chip fabrication plants couldn't guarantee, let along produce the custom chips in sufficient numbers IBM couldn't assemble and test the hardware and Atari were left with insufficient supplies to go around. 

 

The question of whether they would of be wiser to focus on a UK launch first often comes up, but given how the Falcon had fared, the Amiga overtaken the ST once the price had dropped and both the Game Gear and Gameboy outsold the Lynx in the UK, it's doubtful it would of made much difference. 

 

Atari didn't so much scare developers away, though it did pull some stupid moves, not wanting Audiogenic as it didn't class them as a big name, announcing Team 17 as a developer, before they'd even recieved dev kits.. 

 

 

Publishers simply knew Atari lacked the resources to make the Jaguar a commercial success and either weren't going to support it full stop, would wait until it sold 500,000 units before supporting it, or gave it token support until the Next Generation systems from Sega, Nintendo and Sony were ready. 

 

 

ATD stated the contractual obligation they had to produce Battlemorph for the Jaguar CD, meant they were late getting their first generation Playstation software out. 

 

Core Design said Sega were where the money was, they paid well and they paid on time. 
 

I heard once the Saturn came out Sega turned into Atari in that regard, for western studios. Then eventually close nearly all of them.

 

I always though that after Atari cut all their other product lines to focus on the Jaguar (why?) They were in a similar position as Commodore with CD32.

 

You waited too long and shot both your feet and about to fall in the grave, but still release a product without resources to support it.

 

It's likely like Commodore, Atari thought the limited consoles they could sell would be made up by buyers buying enough software per person on average to keep the console going and save the company.

 

It's clear from the start Atari could not ever produce even 300k consoles upfront to sell. They never had a single home console due that. Its clear they were hoping for a high software attach rate and the console to sell more overtime as they brought in more revenue to market and produce it.

 

I dont think that strategy has ever worked in electronics. At least not with production levels that low.

 

 

[Lostdragon]

8 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

I heard once the Saturn came out Sega turned into Atari in that regard, for western studios. Then eventually close nearly all of them.

 

I always though that after Atari cut all their other product lines to focus on the Jaguar (why?) They were in a similar position as Commodore with CD32.

 

You waited too long and shot both your feet and about to fall in the grave, but still release a product without resources to support it.

 

It's likely like Commodore, Atari thought the limited consoles they could sell would be made up by buyers buying enough software per person on average to keep the console going and save the company.

 

It's clear from the start Atari could not ever produce even 300k consoles upfront to sell. They never had a single home console due that. Its clear they were hoping for a high software attach rate and the console to sell more overtime as they brought in more revenue to market and produce it.

 

I dont think that strategy has ever worked in electronics. At least not with production levels that low.

 

 

It's been a good few years since i disccused Sega not learning from the mistakes Atari had made, so I am going completely off a very bad memory here but... 

 

 

Seem to remember them treating Camelot Software (Shining Force series)  pretty badly, having their stand at a trade show put almost out of sight, then basically saying they were no longer needed? 

 

 

This during the Saturn era? 

 

 

Then with the Dreamcast, they made some arrogant statement about not needing E. A, as they were Sega? 

 

 

Even at the time thst struck me as pure stupidity, only a few years prior, i had been speaking to someone from Sony Europe on the phone and discussion had somehow gotten into software support and he was basically saying E. A was practically God back then if you wanted your system to strive, you made sure E. A were backing it and you kept them sweet. 

 

 

There was talk from Atari about getting the Lynx back into stores and pushing it, once the Jaguar had been established but having read the accounts of people who at one point were tasked with coding Vindicators and Rolling Thunder for the Lynx, how hollow that talk was, Atari had closed development studios, put all resources on the Jaguar. 

 

 

Sam Tramiel had been foolish to make claims that within a couple of years alone the Lynx would of sold 3 million units and have destroyed the Nintendo GB. 

 

It's still up in the air exactly how many units the Lynx sold in it's lifetime, estimates put it between 2-3 Million, but the GB destroyed it and even the Game Gear fared better. 

 

 

Mev Dinc made the point that when Atari was proposing the Panther as a potential development platform to studios, his studio woukdnt touch it, as Atari hadn't had a successful console product for years. 

[Pete5125]

14 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

It's been a good few years since i disccused Sega not learning from the mistakes Atari had made, so I am going completely off a very bad memory here but... 

 

 

Seem to remember them treating Camelot Software (Shining Force series)  pretty badly, having their stand at a trade show put almost out of sight, then basically saying they were no longer needed? 

 

 

This during the Saturn era? 

 

 

Then with the Dreamcast, they made some arrogant statement about not needing E. A, as they were Sega? 

 

 

Even at the time thst struck me as pure stupidity, only a few years prior, i had been speaking to someone from Sony Europe on the phone and discussion had somehow gotten into software support and he was basically saying E. A was practically God back then if you wanted your system to strive, you made sure E. A were backing it and you kept them sweet. 

 

 

There was talk from Atari about getting the Lynx back into stores and pushing it, once the Jaguar had been established but having read the accounts of people who at one point were tasked with coding Vindicators and Rolling Thunder for the Lynx, how hollow that talk was, Atari had closed development studios, put all resources on the Jaguar. 

 

 

Sam Tramiel had been foolish to make claims that within a couple of years alone the Lynx would of sold 3 million units and have destroyed the Nintendo GB. 

 

It's still up in the air exactly how many units the Lynx sold in it's lifetime, estimates put it between 2-3 Million, but the GB destroyed it and even the Game Gear fared better. 

 

 

Mev Dinc made the point that when Atari was proposing the Panther as a potential development platform to studios, his studio woukdnt touch it, as Atari hadn't had a successful console product for years. 

In Sega's defence they never had the greatest relationship with EA, EA made the lockout chip and the special carts to get around Sega's liscencing fees for the Genesis, EA tried to start their own system, with 3do, when that didn't work, they released a few Saturn games, then pretty much was an exclusive to playstation.  So saying dreamcast didn't need them was Sega saving face.

[Leeroy ST]

18 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

It's been a good few years since i disccused Sega not learning from the mistakes Atari had made, so I am going completely off a very bad memory here but... 

 

 

Seem to remember them treating Camelot Software (Shining Force series)  pretty badly, having their stand at a trade show put almost out of sight, then basically saying they were no longer needed? 

 

 

This during the Saturn era? 

 

 

Then with the Dreamcast, they made some arrogant statement about not needing E. A, as they were Sega? 

 

 

Even at the time thst struck me as pure stupidity, only a few years prior, i had been speaking to someone from Sony Europe on the phone and discussion had somehow gotten into software support and he was basically saying E. A was practically God back then if you wanted your system to strive, you made sure E. A were backing it and you kept them sweet. 

 

 

There was talk from Atari about getting the Lynx back into stores and pushing it, once the Jaguar had been established but having read the accounts of people who at one point were tasked with coding Vindicators and Rolling Thunder for the Lynx, how hollow that talk was, Atari had closed development studios, put all resources on the Jaguar. 

 

 

Sam Tramiel had been foolish to make claims that within a couple of years alone the Lynx would of sold 3 million units and have destroyed the Nintendo GB. 

 

It's still up in the air exactly how many units the Lynx sold in it's lifetime, estimates put it between 2-3 Million, but the GB destroyed it and even the Game Gear fared better. 

 

 

Mev Dinc made the point that when Atari was proposing the Panther as a potential development platform to studios, his studio woukdnt touch it, as Atari hadn't had a successful console product for years. 

Well technically the 7800 and XEGS were successful (for Atari) but I suppose they meant them selling past a specific target like 5 million.

 

But yeah Sega shared many of Ataris mistakes. In fact quite a few were done with the Saturn in parallel with the Jaguar. 

 

Crazy despite more product generating cash and having much more money than all Atari Corp when Jag died in 96, Sega was near bankrupt in 98 just two years later and needed assistance in launching the DC, dropping hardware just 3 years after that. Sega went from on top to hardly able to support a major launch with DC in just 4-5 years.

[Leeroy ST]

4 hours ago, Pete5125 said:

In Sega's defence they never had the greatest relationship with EA, EA made the lockout chip and the special carts to get around Sega's liscencing fees for the Genesis, EA tried to start their own system, with 3do, when that didn't work, they released a few Saturn games, then pretty much was an exclusive to playstation.  So saying dreamcast didn't need them was Sega saving face.

EA didn't start 3DO. EA was also still everywhere. Saturn also launched before 3DO died. 

 

And honestly for the Dreamcast, Sega didn't need EA. NFL2K was the biggest franchise on the system with NBA2K behind, and since the Dreamcasts success hinged on the US they didn't really need them.

 

I believe the EA theory is one of those myths people use as an excuse for why the DC failed without directly blaming the DC itself. Like the "died by ps2 hype before launch" nonsense. DC was still strong after PS2 came out. In the US of course.

 

What hurt the DC is no one in US wanted their games outside 2K sports, their top best selling games outside of that were Sonic, Soul Calibur, and Crazy Taxi, all early releases. You can't have a console survive on just two annual sport series.

[+madman]

Was not releasing DVD support at launch the biggest mistake Sega made with the DC? 

[+CyranoJ]

Was not releasing at launch the biggest mistake the Coleco Chameleon made?

[Leeroy ST]

On 8/24/2021 at 2:33 AM, Lostdragon said:

Sam Tramiel had been foolish to make claims that within a couple of years alone the Lynx would of sold 3 million units and have destroyed the Nintendo GB. 

I dont think he realized how cheap the Gameboy would be to produce. Or how costly the Lynx would be.

 

If I recall they had to raise the price once.

 

They also couldn't get the display to be cheaper in time.

 

I think the Lynx would have ended up doing better just being a US release. After selling out the first year it was clear they couldn't produce enough consoles in any region too compete. That 3 million sold was spread between various NA and European countries. I think Japan too tho limited.

 

At the very least they should have changed strategies when LynxII came out.

 

They wouldn't have won but you have a successful handheld of 6-10 million and that may have stopped them from pulling back on it to fully go all in on Jaguar in 95-96, after it was barely in stores and stopped selling..

 

Quote

but the GB destroyed it and even the Game Gear fared better. 

Perhaps but their gunner strategy made it so that many  casuals didn't think of mamy games that stood out, and the software sales on average were mixed. I also believe they didn't actually make money on it in the end considering  Sega's position when it was discontinued.

 

However the Lynx was at least commercially viable for Atari once they started coasting instead of competing. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[phoenixdownita]

.... can't resist .... must .. copy .. joke .. from .. madman and CJ ...

 

Was not releasing gramophone support at launch the biggest mistake Fairchild made with the Channel F?
(which by the way seems to mean Channel Fun .... according to Wikipedia .... get the Fun out of here please!!! )

Was not releasing harpsichord support at launch the biggest mistake Magnavox made with the Odyssey?

Was not refraining from more silly jokes the biggest mistake I made this evening?
 

[+CyranoJ]

Was @Bill Loguidice responding to the first post the biggest mistake made in this thread?

 

(Sorry Bill!)

[saboteur]

One for CJ ( probably )

 

I assume the purpose of the CD add on was to allow for more data to be supplied on a cheaper medium but was it slower than accessing data via cart ?

 

If so does that mean that with the appearance of the gamedrive - game roms can be as big as one could wish with a better perfromance ( system limitations aside ) than cd E.G soundtracks can be cd quality ?

 

Just curious really.

[+CyranoJ]

6 minutes ago, saboteur said:

One for CJ ( probably )

 

I assume the purpose of the CD add on was to allow for more data to be supplied on a cheaper medium but was it slower than accessing data via cart ?

 

If so does that mean that with the appearance of the gamedrive - game roms can be as big as one could wish with a better perfromance ( system limitations aside ) than cd E.G soundtracks can be cd quality ?

 

Just curious really.

Post it in the JagCD forum and I'd be happy to discuss (along with @SainT no doubt!) - but this thread... needs to die.

[saboteur]

5 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

Post it in the JagCD forum and I'd be happy to discuss (along with @SainT no doubt!) - but this thread... needs to die.

Do you mean the GD Forum ? - i can't see a CD Forum

[+CyranoJ]

2 minutes ago, saboteur said:

Do you mean the GD Forum ? - i can't see a CD Forum

Yes, sorry

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, saboteur said:

One for CJ ( probably )

 

I assume the purpose of the CD add on was to allow for more data to be supplied on a cheaper medium but was it slower than accessing data via cart ?

 

If so does that mean that with the appearance of the gamedrive - game roms can be as big as one could wish with a better perfromance ( system limitations aside ) than cd E.G soundtracks can be cd quality ?

 

Just curious really.

It was also used as a means by Atari UK P. R Manager, Darryl Still, to try and deflect some of the critiscm away from the platform. 

 

 

Darryl would talk of leveling the playing field, the other machines, Saturn, 3DO and Playstation having an unfair advantage being CD based.

 

The Jaguar CD add-on would allow Atari to compete on an even footing. 

[Leeroy ST]

8 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

It was also used as a means by Atari UK P. R Manager, Darryl Still, to try and deflect some of the critiscm away from the platform. 

 

 

Darryl would talk of leveling the playing field, the other machines, Saturn, 3DO and Playstation having an unfair advantage being CD based.

 

The Jaguar CD add-on would allow Atari to compete on an even footing. 

Anything on their reaction post N64 announcement?

[phoenixdownita]

.... can't .... really ... resist ... sorry but it's kind of funny (I know I'm easily amused and a long day) 

 

 

Was not launching a symmetric dual analog stick configuration the biggest mistake Nintendo made with the N64?

[Leeroy ST]

On 8/24/2021 at 2:33 AM, Lostdragon said:

Seem to remember them treating Camelot Software (Shining Force series)  pretty badly, having their stand at a trade show put almost out of sight, then basically saying they were no longer needed? 

Regarding camelot dont know how on point Sega 16 is but I looked into it and found this:

https://www.sega-16.com/2004/09/history-of-shining-games/

Quote

Sega finally allowed them to use the Camelot title when the third episode of Shining Force III for Saturn was in development. As fate would have it, that also was around the time that Camelot and Sega parted ways. It seems that the developers were understandably miffed by Sega’s decision to can the Saturn and concentrate on Dreamcast, effectively leaving Camelot high and dry and Shining Force III as a consolation prize for Saturn owners. In fact, the release of Shining Force III for the American Saturn was viewed by the company (particularly then-president Bernie Stolar) as a final “thank you” to fans, and the game appeared alongside such other hard to find gems as Panzer Dragoon Saga.

The Shining Force III premium disc, an extremely rare giveaway obtained by sending in the proofs of purchase from all three scenarios, had an “abstract.txt.” file in it that expressed Camelot’s disappointment with Sega’s actions.:

As we come nearer and nearer to the last stage of Sega Saturn, the difference between Sega’s and Camelot’s motto in making games increases more and more. This became even more obvious after Dreamcast’s launch. I sincerely wish people would not focus too much on graphics and forgot the essence of a game. What Camelot wants to make, is still “a game that’s really a game.” No matter how good a console can become, the essence of game will not change.

Sad, ain’t it?

While helpful there's no discussion about the trade show sadly. I also scanned the forums and can't find more details

 

Do you remember where you heard about Sega moving Camelot's stand in an inconvenient place at Trade Show?