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Leeroy ST

Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

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38 minutes ago, RetroSonicHero said:

God this thread is such a mess

We agree just jag cd or dou wouldn't have helped.

 

To others, I answered every question. Why would I buy shells then sell just shells? I need shells for units. I want to sell finished units in a year. The jag mini or analogue jg. You guys confuse yourselves honestly. I answered every question thoroughly and repeatedly seriously.

Edited by ataritiger

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10 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

To others, I answered every question. Why would I buy shells then sell just shells? I need shells for units. I want to sell finished units in a year. The jag mini or analogue jg. You guys confuse yourselves honestly. I answered every question thoroughly and repeatedly seriously.

Again, not picking on you, but you honestly haven't. If you think you did, I'm telling you you haven't. Others are telling you you haven't. It's not us, it's you. Dream big, my friend, but please come to grips with the idea that you don't understand any of this. And that's OK. Ideas are easy, execution for a project such as this is extremely difficult. And it's not just money either. Even if the budget you quoted was somehow going to be enough - and it's not - it's about putting together a proper business plan and being able to express your ideas in a coherent manner that gets others onboard.

 

If you feel like you're really serious about this idea and you really have the resources you claim you do, then you'd put in the effort to really plan this out and not just state random things that have little or no grounding in reality. You don't even know if you can get Atari's license for any of this stuff. And you definitely won't be getting any of the third party games you think you're going to get. And even if you do, it's going to cost you more than you have indicated you're prepared to spend. And saying things like "analogue jg," like they'd automatically want to partner with you on a release or that's a kind of name you can use are continuous red flags with your understanding of anything. Again, that may not be your intention, but you've repeatedly failed to make yourself clear in any way about anything.

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Ok Bill. I do understand some but at least your not like other guy and say I dont know what fpga is. After explaining it 13 times. I actually did answer and explain alot. Im not buying then reselling shells though idk why you asked that I mean it'll be nice sell 1000 units, finished composed of shells pcb hdmi 6 button controllers homebrew games etc. Maybe I can't get all 20 :(

 

Anyway the load times of 1995 just 💿 jag would be too slow glad it was 1993 cart mostly. No wolf3d doom avp 💿 load times good

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5 hours ago, ataritiger said:

Basically yes.

1) Shells either smaller or his inventory, 

 

2) motherboards pcb for emu or fpga,

 

3) licenses,

 

4) 6 button controller with just 6 keypads not 99 lol jk

 

5) then release 1000 here.

 

6) Ill send youtube review units. Send online magizine etc. Most money will go to Atari logo jaguar logo etc honestly.

 

7) Im not looking to profit. At all.

 

8) But $89 emu mini or $199 fpga "analogue jg" sounds fair to buyers?

 

999 units batch one.

 

9) Homebrewers would be easy yes. Legacy titles? But thing is 20 games i luv. But if somebody thinks burnout is bad compare to power drive ok. About my plastics facility, I typed it out pages ago with no typos there either ;) Google it.

5 hours ago Bill 

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We’ll be waiting for a finished product, or at least a work in progress. Popcorn in one hand, money in another. So now go make us that Jaguar mini. 

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2 hours ago, ataritiger said:

.... I need shells for units. I want to sell finished units in a year. ....

OK, how about you get started with the project and you update a new thread that you create here on AA, say call it my_modern_Jag or something, update say once a month or once every two months if there's something to share on the state so we can prepare to buy when it's available?

I suppose you checked Wikipedia wrt atari Jag molds ownership but in case: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar
check the last sentence with name and surname and in the note a link to AA with the post of the current owner saying he owns them.

Wrt the pro ctrl I believe the current owner of the console molds can put you in touch with the individual that made Jag Pro ctrl repro (he must have found a way to make ctrl molds), you can talk to him just in case you decide you want to keep the Jag ctrl numeric pad after all.


PS: I don't know if since then the ownership changed again at any rate that individual would know for sure

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5 hours ago, RetroSonicHero said:

 The example that comes to mind is "Fight for Life", the last game to be officially released for the console. Atari had promised the developer decent pay, but after a certain about of time, they just decided to stop paying him. His response was to send them an unfinished build of the game, and that's the version that was officially released. We didn't see the final product until many years later where the developer shared it with us online.

Please do direct me to this mysterious final build that he shared with everyone online many years ago. It's very possible I missed it.

 

I think you're confusing an early beta build that just so happens to play better than the game that was actually finished and released. This has been a rumor that continues to be revived time and time again. Directly from his mouth while working at Apple in 2012: He got paid (late) but he did get paid and the released version is the final version. The changes that appeared with the final game were a result of Atari wanting the matches to last longer and one of the testers being Pentecostal.

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17 minutes ago, Clint Thompson said:

Please do direct me to this mysterious final build that he shared with everyone online many years ago. It's very possible I missed it.

 

I think you're confusing an early beta build that just so happens to play better than the game that was actually finished and released. This has been a rumor that continues to be revived time and time again. Directly from his mouth while working at Apple in 2012: He got paid (late) but he did get paid and the released version is the final version. The changes that appeared with the final game were a result of Atari wanting the matches to last longer and one of the testers being Pentecostal.

Yeah, I had watched a video a while ago that labeled it as the "final build". I myself haven't been able to find it, so I think that video mislabeled it. What I do know though is that there's a beta build that plays similarly to Virtua Fighter, and that one's pretty widely regarded. (it doesn't have very many moves, but it plays faster overall)

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32 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I suppose you checked Wikipedia wrt atari Jag molds ownership but in case: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar
check the last sentence with name and surname and in the note a link to AA with the post of the current owner saying he owns them.

I knew he owned the Jag base unit molds and cartridge molds, but what about the CD and the controllers?  I can't Imagin (see what I did there) there would be much demand for standard repro controllers as there are so many of them out there, but new/colored/clear CD shells and base unit shells would be great.  Obviously there are repro pro controllers already.

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I posted a link where we found at least 4 roms but some could be duplicates or re dated beta or final build roms of fight4life. Glad fightforlife wasn't 💿 too imagine slow fps game play with load times each round. Edit : Thank you phoenix

Edited by ataritiger

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5 hours ago, ataritiger said:

Please read post 127 or before we found many rom versions 

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/223416-fight-for-life-beta-or-commercial/page/6/#comments

 

"Mitch has 4 roms , 3.22 etcs beta a sept 7 e3 proto, a 2000 or 2005 beta and 2010 rom. Plus there a 1996 retail rom he linked. Also 2008 source code leak. So only one missing is 1994 vg mag reviewer rom. So whats doubled?"

It was this if anyone is interested we tried to organize roms by info and date.

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I’m so glad threads like this exist. What is your opinion on Knight Rider? Does your daughter need a bike? How many PS2s have you given away?

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11 hours ago, ataritiger said:

I agree with all you said. To me, Atari and Sega are mirrors in a way for 10 years, alot bad decisions, 

Differejcebis Atari was reactionary because they had little funds that keep dwindling and no safety net.

 

Sega in the other hand, Had money, more revenue generating products connections, a marketing budget, HAD a safety net, and several departments and teams.

 

Atari's dumb decisions could at least he reasonably explained. At least a lot of the time.

Edited by Leeroy ST
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10 hours ago, RetroSonicHero said:

I don't think the JagCD would've been a large factor in the system's success. Like others have mentioned, it would've gone against the entire design philosophy of the Jaguar to begin with if that's what they relied on.

 

 

In my opinion, Atari's biggest mistake(s) were down to prioritization. For one, if you look at their marketing strategies, all they really had going for them were their "oooooooo 64 bit" commercials. And that really wasn't adequate enough to be compelling to consumers. Sure, all the kids in the 90s knew about the bit wars, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when the majority didn't know what they were to begin with. It was impressive for the time, but it didn't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

 

The system also wasn't well equipped for the future as well. They were still rocking the 68000, for one. And while that'd been proven to be a more than competent microprocessor, it just wasn't up to snuff compared to what the competition would later do. Hell, the 3DO had been out for a month already, and had equally, if not, more impressive specs. Thanks to its 32-bit RISC CPU among other things. That was already bad enough, but the PS1 was also on the horizon. Which was the final nail in the coffin. If Atari did a couple of things differently, perhaps the system could've stood a chance. The hardware just wasn't equipped for future proofing and ensuring that 3rd party developers would be willing to understand how to program for it optimally and release games for many years to come. Keep in mind that Atari was still carrying baggage because of the unsuccessful 5200, 7800, and Lynx. I'm sure that put some 3rd parties off when considering if whether or not they should develop for the Jaguar.

 

In general, the higher ups of Atari also made some really questionable decisions. The example that comes to mind is "Fight for Life", the last game to be officially released for the console. Atari had promised the developer decent pay, but after a certain about of time, they just decided to stop paying him. His response was to send them an unfinished build of the game, and that's the version that was officially released. We didn't see the final product until many years later where the developer shared it with us online.

 

 

It's decisions like this that really make you wonder what was going through the higher up's heads. 

 

I. Dont think the issue was build as it was a broken design and buggy devbtools.

 

Remember Jaguar did have two RISCs and with full access to those, which wasn't possible, the Jaguar would have been strong enough 

 

Also 3DO had a handful of months head start, but technically the 3DOs ARM, on paper, isn't as capable and way to slow compared to the Jaguars two RISCs.

 

CD features in games from effects, storage space, to music, and FMV were pretty important, even for 2D games, so a CD drive from the start would lead to more third party support and less cancellations, not a lot, but even just 1 million sales would have been enough for Atari to survive, maybe go third party. Maybe even a bit less. Less cost on CD game distribution to, leading to higher quantities produced which means more $$$.

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10 hours ago, RetroSonicHero said:

 

In general, the higher ups of Atari also made some really questionable decisions. The example that comes to mind is "Fight for Life", the last game to be officially released for the console. Atari had promised the developer decent pay, but after a certain about of time, they just decided to stop paying him. His response was to send them an unfinished build of the game, and that's the version that was officially released. We didn't see the final product until many years later where the developer shared it with us online.

 

Forgot about this, this was debunked in many places, even here, I dont remember if it was @Lostdragon or another user, but he didn't send an unfinished built.

 

atari rushed thing and he send the last version he had ready. Also the demo wasn't that much different than the final game imo.

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4 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

OK, how about you get started with the project and you update a new thread that you create here on AA, say call it my_modern_Jag or something, update say once a month or once every two months if there's something to share on the state so we can prepare to buy when it's available?

I suppose you checked Wikipedia wrt atari Jag molds ownership but in case: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar
check the last sentence with name and surname and in the note a link to AA with the post of the current owner saying he owns them.

Wrt the pro ctrl I believe the current owner of the console molds can put you in touch with the individual that made Jag Pro ctrl repro (he must have found a way to make ctrl molds), you can talk to him just in case you decide you want to keep the Jag ctrl numeric pad after all.


PS: I don't know if since then the ownership changed again at any rate that individual would know for sure

 

Just Start (a) new topic and then call it:

 

New Mini Console That Jaguar MiniBox?

 

Trust me when I say people will know what you mean.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Agent X said:

 

If the Jaguar had an integrated CD drive at launch (1993), then you would have been looking at system with $400 to $500 price tag. And it still wouldn't have had enough games on the shelf.

The PSX came out the same year as the Jaguar at $299, SAT at $399 and Jaguar had some cheaper parts internally, not all, but it was enough to quickly drop to $199 in short time. It makes no sense for Jaguar to have been $4-500 with a cd drive when prices were already low enough to affordably include it 

 

This also includes the 3DO with the other two. CD Drive is not why 3DO was $700 it was ARM plus Panasonic being the only manufacturer of the console with 1 model early on and had to make money on the hardware wholesale. Then you have manufacturing and distribution and publishing. 3DO didn't even have a first party studio when they started.

 

You're basically saying there's a chance the Atari Jaguar would have been $500 adding a CD Drive at launch at a time when the 3DO was already around that price range  that doesn't make any sense. 

 

Along with 3DO/SAT/PS1 the three (somewhat relevant) other CD systems were in the same price range you say or less and started development early paying more before prices dropped and I'm some cases paid extra for expensive custom chips.

 

Pippin is the only exception, but it wasn't $600 because of the cd drive, it was $600 because of a strange arrangement with bandai as well as it's unique internals and OS features.

 

I dont get how some of you are imagining this CD Drive tax for a 1994 console. It'd likely be $300-$350 at most realistically. The system was already designed cheap from the start and had the lowest price on release by a significant amount compared to all consoles previously mentioned.

 

9 hours ago, Agent X said:

This was another huge problem. They kept playing the "64-bit" card even after the release of Saturn and PlayStation. At that point (late 1995), their strategy should have simply been "we have an affordable console with a great range of games". Their ads should have promoted some of their best games, instead of harping so much on the "64-bit" factor.

 

This was really a non-issue, most of the 64-bit talk was earlier, but still was inconsequential later on especially with stages screen shots or bull videos.

 

Nintendo also was doing the same thing with nothing solid to show consumers until 96 when it finally came out. I think it was on the bottom of the list when taking about the Jaguars problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

The PSX came out the same year as the Jaguar at $299, SAT at $399 and Jaguar had some cheaper parts internally, not all, but it was enough to quickly drop to $199 in short time. It makes no sense for Jaguar to have been $4-500 with a cd drive when prices were already low enough to affordably include it 

 

 

 

You're basically saying there's a chance the Atari Jaguar would have been $500 adding a CD Drive at launch at a time when the 3DO was already around that price range  that doesn't make any sense. 

 

Along with 3DO/SAT/PS1 the three (somewhat relevant) other CD systems were in the same price range you say or less and started development early paying more before prices dropped and I'm some cases paid extra for expensive custom chips.

 

 

I dont get how some of you are imagining this CD Drive tax for a 1994 console. It'd likely be $300-$350 at most realistically. The system was already designed cheap from the start and had the lowest price on release by a significant amount compared to all consoles previously mentioned.

 

This was really a non-issue, most of the 64-bit talk was earlier, but still was inconsequential later on especially with stages screen shots or bull videos.

 

Nintendo also was doing the same thing with nothing solid to show consumers until 96 when it finally came out. I think it was on the bottom of the list when taking about the Jaguars problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sony was selling every Playstation at a loss, they could afford it. Their strategy was to gain market share and to get the profits from higher software sales. The lower entry price point was crucial to make it a commercial success (!). Most importantly they got a lot support from 3rd party publishers.

 

Now, for Atari a CD system was not a better option:

 

- higher production costs

- higher entry price for consumers

- lower sales and lower profits for Atari

- lower manufacturing costs than carts, but probably higher development costs for games

 

They already struggled with Jaguar hardware production through 1994, I don't think they could afford any losses with hardware sales considering the financial situation they were in.

 

The main problems for Atari were the low hardware and software sales. 3rd parties did not reckon the Jaguar as a commercially viable platform. Even ID was dispappointed with W3D and Doom sales and then stopped any further software development for the system. Nobody could tell a CD system would have fixed all those issues. Its highly questionable to make such assumptions.

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1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

 

This was really a non-issue, most of the 64-bit talk was earlier, but still was inconsequential later on especially with stages screen shots or bull videos.

 

Nintendo also was doing the same thing with nothing solid to show consumers until 96 when it finally came out. I think it was on the bottom of the list when taking about the Jaguars problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remember Nintendo showing "Mario 64" and every gaming journalists writing about it as groundbreaking stuff. 

 

 

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Other than Darryl Still and his bizzare claim of an X-rated version of Fight For Life (Jenny.. Tits oot for the Ladz) in one UK magazine, the Fight For Life info i have shared is this lot:

 

 

  1. Ted Hoff: I would like to also share with you that Francois Bertrand
    has been asked back to complete work on Fight for Life.
    It’s important that I also tell you that our official
    position is the same as it has been for months…. that FFL
    will be released IF and WHEN it meets Atari standards.
    As you may have heard, the latest test reports have been
    favorable and I’m delighted to review it, but if Atari
    personnel answer your inquiries that the title remains on
    hold, then they are answering your question accurately.
    Atari remains faithful to publishing software under strict
    guidelines so that the product Atari customers buy meets
    or exceeds their expectations.

     
     
     
  2. From the coder himself, F.Y.B:

    FFL is going to be a 4 Mbyte (32 Mbits) cartridge for the Jaguar64

    Most of the character are fully Texture mapped (not as Virtua Fighter), and the type of fight is closer to TEKKEN than to Toshiden.
    ..the frame rate in FFL is very good (up to 27 frame/second) and an
    average of 22.We has some design problem and some visual problems.If you look at the latest screen shot from the game, you will see that the graphics have improved a lot, and the game is now pushing the Jaguar as it should have done from the beginning.

    I am just finishing to clean up the latest texture for some of the
    characters, and debugging whatever the test department doesn’t like.When you devellop a game, you can make some choice which seems logical to you but are sometime not the best solution.The test department is doing a great job on this side.GA

    FFL does include a lot of thing you will not find on any of the other
    platform.The fact that you can devellop your own fighter, fight after
    fight is unique.I did include a combo system in the game, which give it a deeper gameplay.And I did devellop a morphing system, that is a first on a 3d fighting game.Stick with your Jaguar.Nobody else give you this sort of thing.

     
     
    The Jaguar architecture is different than the playstation’s one. I do believe that the Jaguar may be stronger in certain area, but not all
  3. of them. The Jag+Jag CD is a strong environment, and you should see some
    beautiful products coming out for those two.

    More from FYB: During the development of FFL, I did discover some new way (faster way) to do things.Sometime, it wasn’t too late to make the modification to include those new tricks in the code, but not all of the time. If I had to redo FFL from scratch today,I do believe I may go faster on some area.But the actual result is still pretty impressive.

     
     
     
  4.  

    Statement from Don Thomas :

     FIGHT for LIFE
     
     To me, it seems like a decade since the Fight for Life
     project began. For a long time, Mr. Francois Yves Bertrand,
     it’s creator, worked in a cubicle next to mine at 1196 on
     Borregas Avenue. Every once in a while, Francois would
     invite to peer over the wall at his latest revisions and
     little by little I saw Fight for Life come together as if I
     were watching time lapse photography.
     
     Francois is an extremely talented individual. He initiated
     the project virtually on a single handed basis. As he
     developed the project, he solicited the talents of other
     wizards to help with some of the bit maps, texture maps and
     sound effects used in the game. By the time Francois was
     finished and submitted the final copy, the Fight for Life
     team was numerous, exhausted and proud… and they should be
     proud.
     
     Atari Corporation has always prioritized the famous “fun
     factor” over almost any other element in a game. The reason
     for this is because eye candy is only appealing in the store
     or when you show off a game to a friend for the first time.
     If the game isn’t fun, then consumers look for ways to
     return or sell it as soon as they decided it is boring to
     play.
     
     Bill Rehbock, the executive producer, and J Patton, the
     producer of Fight for Life believed very much in the “fun
     factor” formula and asked Francois to work on those parts of
     the game engine first. As he did, news began to leak out
     that Atari was working on a polygonal fighter and before
     long, Atari was pressed into providing work-in-progress
     demos to the gaming press. Unfortunately, the gaming
     magazines decided to evaluate the game by terms other than
     how it was being developed. While Francois was spending
     relatively little time making it look good and a lot of time
     at making it play well, the magazines insisted on
     evaluations based on how well the screen shots appeared in
     their glossy magazine pages. By the end of the third quarter
     of 1995, Atari felt compelled to announce that Fight for
     Life was “indefinitely postponed” while, behind the scenes,
     Francois and his team accelerated final development with a
     focus on the graphic elements of the game.
     
     On Friday, April 19, 1996, Atari released Fight for Life to
     the Jaguar community. As you will see below by unsolicited
     Internet feedback, the game is being touted as an excellent
     new addition to the Jaguar library. I finally got a chance
     to look at it this morning. Please let me say first, that I
     am not pretending to be a polygonal fighter expert. I’ve
     seen the Virtual Fighter clones, but I have not played them
     any more than maybe a quarter’s worth each. That being
     established, Fight for Life definitely has the fun factor
     elements I’d expect from an Atari product. Not only does the
     game look GREAT!, but the mechanism to “earn” new moves as I
     win bouts is a challenging motivation. I also like the fact
     that each bout feels like a real time fight. Even in
     instances where I found a particular one move that seems to
     defeat my opponent, I have to work hard using it to win.
     
     I’ll let the comments that follow speak for themselves, but
     overall, I’d say Fight for Life kicks BUTTered buns!
     

 

Arcade Attack interviewed others who worked on the game. 

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I’ve read of another build for World Tour Racing which made it easier to enter the pits, & of a planned follow up which probably would’ve had a higher frame rate, but I d not heard of a better Fight for Life till now.

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So no final ffl rom has been confirmed even in our old thread? Well I'm interested in virtua fighter like one with less moves was that e3 beta? We listed 4 or 5. Thank god ffl wasn't on cd. About mini, if I cant get avp doom or wolf3d on it then whats the point. Also shells seem to change owners here and without paying krikzz or terraunion owner $250,000 yeah that won't work on fpga. A emu mini with no avp doom etc sucks even with great homebrew or legacy games. Happy? Yall won and I see now. Im not paying 2 million just for license fees from Microsoft. This was a dream but without some miracles it won't happen.

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