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Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?


Leeroy ST

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12 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

No, it just means you won't read it:

 

Anyways, I believe it's time to change the subject. How about "the Jaguar is not 64 bits, it's just two 32 bits processors stuck together"? We'd love to hear your opinion on that!

 

I heard it can use its full 64 bus but has Tom and Jerry chips which are 2 32 bit chips and a motorolla 68000 which are up to could be 16 bit 32 bit etc

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3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Well I heard Atari started developing a "Tiger" console with more than 10 games 90% complete but cancelled them last minute. If you can't disprove that, I guess it's true. 

That's actually the system that Sega was porting their games to, the source code for Virtua Racing on the Saturn is based off the Tiger port's code. The custom DSP chips were nicknamed Yogi and Boo Boo and Atari's marketing campaign was going to be, "Smarter than the average console." 

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The Cybermorph on Panther claims were put to bed by multiple sources from both Atari Corp, who made clear NO Jaguar titles started life on the Panther and Fred Gill and Brian Pollock of ATD. 

 

Cybermorph itself simply started out as a flying carpet style landscape demo ATD wrote to showcase the Jaguar hardware, Atari asked them to turn it into a fully fledged game. 

 

ATD were tasked with bug checking the chipsets and asked for a number of fixes to be made to the final hardware design, Atari imolented at least one of them. 

 

 

That info was put up on here many moths ago as was the various interviews with ATD with Edge magazine. 

 

 

RVG website has an interview with Fred Gill.. 

 

 

The information is out there in the public domain. 

 

The bullshit claim hasn't been helped by people using THAT poorly researched Pixel Nation Panther article from years ago, as a credible document. 

 

 

The article Leonard Tramiel tore apart as Fake News ?

 

 

It featured incorrect press speculation Pitfighter was underway on Panther, a claim Domark and Tengen sources have said was completely false. 

 

 

That Jeff Minter's sprite routine demo was for an intended Panther title called Antelope Attack and which became Llamazap on Falcon. 

 

 

Jeff only a few days ago pointed out this was yet another false claim. 

 

 

The sprite scaling demo from the Jaguar showcase VHS tape was being used to claim there was an Asteroids title in development for the Panther, again total B. S. 

 

 

The early Jaguar Cybermorph footage from the Jaguar VHS demo tape was captured and passed off as Panther footage. 

 

The dedicated Panther thread on here contains everything likes of myself and Frank Gasking have managed to track down from people who actually worked on the Panther from sources from:

 

 

Atari Corp

Domark

Tengen

Tiertex

Handmade Software

Imagitec Design

 

Plus individuals like Guildo H, Jeff Minter, Peter Johnson, etc

 

 

We've tried to reach coders, artists musicians, folks who worked on the systems O/S etc. 

 

 

 

People like Martin Hooley and Jim Gregory gave questionable statements, so we've advised caution there, Leonard Tramiel seems unaware of a lot of the UK /European development side of things. 

 

 

But until people stop falling back on the nonsense stuff that was written years ago and update entries and put a bit of legwork into fact checking and looking outside the box, sadly the nonsense will continue to gain momentum and the facts get further drowned out. 

 

 

 

As we made clear earlier, YT Celbs aren't helping by putting false information into the hands of thousands of people. 

 

Going off scripts submitted to them by individuals who don't fact check and they themselves take said scripts at face value. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lostdragon
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9 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

sadly the nonsense will continue to gain momentum and the facts get further drowned out.

Unfortunately, that's how history often works. So many biased and/or unreliable sources and many ways to interpret stuff. These days it's even more exacerbated because there's a legion of "experts" with megaphones, hungry for clicks/likes/etc.

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 Cybermorph is a gouraud shaded 3D game using the CRY color mode, which was developed by Flare as a key feature of  the Jaguar chipset.

 

 

 

But let's see what Fred Gill (ATD) can remember on Cybermorph for the Panther: 

 

Hmmm, interesting question. From memory, and it’s patchy here, I think Flare were working on 32-bit versions of their custom chips, which were Panther, and 64-bit versions that were Jaguar. I think Atari realised they could only support one release, and so plumped for the 64-bit chipset. I am pretty sure that Panther was dead when we started on Jaguar, or very soon after; I don’t remember the differences, but as the main CPU was 68000 in both, a lot of the common gameplay code would ‘just have worked’."

 

You can find the full interview here: https://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/rvg-interviews-fred-gill/

 

 

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16 minutes ago, youxia said:

Unfortunately, that's how history often works. So many biased and/or unreliable sources and many ways to interpret stuff. These days it's even more exacerbated because there's a legion of "experts" with megaphones, hungry for clicks/likes/etc.

And asking for money to support their channel so they can continue to produce more videos covering more subjects badly and spreading further misinformation. 

 

Even when people are warned they are using guest writers, readers, proof readers as resources.... 

 

 

That certain industry folk are established showmen/bullshitters, they still use them as credible sources. 

 

 

Unless the YT community does something to admit guilt and make positive steps to ensure the material it produces is as credible as possible, nothing is going to change. 

 

 

People use YT, Twitter and FB as their gospel now. 

 

 

Interviews and quotes posted on forums, dedicated lost game sites, don't stand a chance. 

 

 

 

An awful lot of time went into finding and asking industry people about their time on the Panther, Frank Gasking and myself might as well not of bothered. 

 

 

I'm bloody glad the quote from Leonard Tramiel saying Panther Raiden was another bullshit claim,has been posted here. 

 

 

Retrogamer Magazine went straight ahead and printed Martin Hooley claiming it and Daemonsgate etc were in Panther development. 

 

 

A statement Martin's own ex-staff who worked on Humans, Daemonsgate and Raiden, strongly dispute and point out Martin is anything but a reliable source. 

 

 

The bloody UK Press are as guilty as the YT scene for spreading misinformation, giving Hooley, Cale, Wicox, Whittaker, San etc a platform to write history in their favour. 

 

 

We only want the big stories from the big names, we don't worry about accuracy, was whst i was told in private long ago by the magazines editor. 

Edited by Lostdragon
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35 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

People use YT, Twitter and FB as their gospel now.

I saw someone post (On facebook - another the worlds cesspools of unlimited brownian motion) that now they had a gamedrive they needed to watch a youtube video to see how to copy files to it.

 

How do these people learn to walk to the toilet before soiling themseves? 

 

??

 

 

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23 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Hm, the Predator is pretty distinguishable with his cloaking, heavy weapons and hitpoints like a tank.

I wish they would have made the aliens a bit more dangerous, they are too much like the cannon fodder of the game IMO.

The Aliens could be faster, with the ability to launch/leap at the player. The inclusion of the heavier Predaliens would have added to a better variety of monsters. 

For the AI , I dont like how the aliens line up behind a closed door. It looks a bit comical. 

The frame rate is acceptable in level 3, but somehow it slows down to a crawl in levels 2, 4 and 5. 

 

Curiously, the game runs better when playing the alien or predator story.

 

 

I didn't get that much out of the game, playing as The Predator. 

 

 

Just felt more could of been done with the character but that's a critiscm i could also lay firmly at the feet of Predator:Concrete Jungle. 

 

But in fairness, the character has to be toned down somewhat, otherwise it becomes nearly unstoppable. 

 

I found the Xenomorph's in Alien Trilogy and Monolith's PC AVP to be dreadful, mere generic FPS fodder and Rebellion went backwards with them on 2010 AVP. 

 

 

 

Jane blew the A. I routines for Jaguar AVP way past the point of mere exaggeration. 

 

Alien chess... 

 

256 different stragies 

 

 

They'd use smell and hearing... 

 

 

Come on, the path finding A. I for them was heavily flawed and as you say, they'd line up behind a door politely waiting in line to be shot. 

 

 

 

There's no shame in admitting hardware limitations cut back ambition. 

 

 

 

I know during the main research into Jane there was an unsubstantiated claim made by an unknown to me source that Jane might of borrowed aspects of A. I code from someone else's work. 

 

 

I never heard anymore on it, so dismissed it as pure hersay, but it was a bloody fool move of Jane, when interviewed, to say the routines were used in both PC AVP by Rebellion and N64 Goldeneye by Rare. 

 

Both teams built their own code from scratch for both titles,using their own people. 

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2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

 

 Cybermorph is a gouraud shaded 3D game using the CRY color mode, which was developed by Flare as a key feature of  the Jaguar chipset.

 

 

 

But let's see what Fred Gill (ATD) can remember on Cybermorph for the Panther: 

 

Hmmm, interesting question. From memory, and it’s patchy here, I think Flare were working on 32-bit versions of their custom chips, which were Panther, and 64-bit versions that were Jaguar. I think Atari realised they could only support one release, and so plumped for the 64-bit chipset. I am pretty sure that Panther was dead when we started on Jaguar, or very soon after; I don’t remember the differences, but as the main CPU was 68000 in both, a lot of the common gameplay code would ‘just have worked’."

 

You can find the full interview here: https://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/rvg-interviews-fred-gill/

 

 

Honestly does that negate cybermorth on the decided dead panther that with "68000 gameplay code could have just worked" and panther was canceled for jaguar? Serious question.

 

Your first sentence makes more sense that flair had special modes for just jaguar so maybe cyber on jag only was possible.

 

Thing is people told me panther wasnt 3d or couldn't do 3d even simple non shaded polygon,  but everything I posted suggests otherwise.

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15 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

Honestly does that negate cybermorth on the decided dead panther that with "68000 gameplay code could have just worked" and panther was canceled for jaguar? Serious question.

 

Your first sentence makes more sense that flair had special modes for just jaguar so maybe cyber on jag only was possible.

 

Thing is people told me panther wasnt 3d or couldn't do 3d even simple non shaded polygon,  but everything I posted suggests otherwise.

Find the bug! :-D

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22 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Find the bug! :-D

Every source i posted said it was 32bit and could do 3d. I really like post 486 here

 

"The Cybermorph on Panther claims were put to bed by multiple sources from both Atari Corp, who made clear NO Jaguar titles started life on the Panther and Fred Gill and Brian Pollock of ATD. "

 

Who are the sources at Atari? Do Fred and Brian always tell the truth? Did the Atari sources work on panther and jaguar and cybermorph? Get specific. Have you done video interviews with people directly involved?

 

Because 2 or 3 jaguar games were listed as starting on jaguar. I posted it earlier in a screenshot.

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8 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Well I heard Atari started developing a "Tiger" console with more than 10 games 90% complete but cancelled them last minute. If you can't disprove that, I guess it's true. 

It'll play 2600+7800 games, 5200 and lynx games as well as jag and jag ? with st ports on jag so far. Give it 2 years. Atari Tiger! Hdmi! Fpga! Use any usb or Bluetooth controller! Red box with black text. 4 cart ports on top or load games with SD card on side. Exclusive homebrew by gasega68k or chilly willy or etc.

Edited by ataritiger
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11 hours ago, JagChris said:

Chilly Willy is a Sega 32X guy. He hasn't done any Jag homebrew. 

Actually he is working on it and sent me many source codes from official jag games. Not sure how he got them. He also used code of doom jag for updated 32x version.

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5 hours ago, madman said:

That's actually the system

Tiger

The custom DSP chips were nicknamed Yogi and Boo Boo and Atari's marketing campaign was going to be, "Smarter than the average console." 

Retro causality. Its how I chose my name before ? for fpga 2600 7800, 5200, lynx, jag and st and jag cd iso sd hdmi console. How much ? you want for that slogan to be on box madman? Doesn't genesis sg have more than 1 chip for genesis and master system games? If its just 1 chip i can't name chips yogi and boo boo;(

Edited by ataritiger
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48 minutes ago, rayik said:

 

Since you read it, it must be true.  End of discussion.  What is going to be your next troll bait topic?

Nothing i was discussing how panther cart console with games i listed would have sold ok and gained better 3rd party support at least for upcoming jag duo...

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48 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

Nothing i was discussing how panther cart console with games i listed would have sold ok and gained better 3rd party support at least for upcoming jag duo...

Nice. Change the subject again.  From making Jag mini, to Cybermorph developed for Panther, now to whether Panther would have sold well.  Might as well create a new Topic since they are all different from this topic.

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52 minutes ago, rayik said:

Nice. Change the subject from Cybermorph developed for Panther, to whether Panther would have sold well.  Might as well create a new Topic since how well Panther would have sold is different from this topic.

Not really, would jag cd only system from start have helped atari? No imo, a cart panther then a duo jag cd system that was backwards compatibe with panther carts would. 

 

And how many gnat comments by the hater gang ? stuck to subjects talked here besides the lets hate on ataritiger while he peacefully interacts with others? Let us see the posts above ;)

552 553 etc or go to last page...people need to stop obsessing over me and just reply maturly.

 

Don't you guys have a family? Or are you alone looking at your sealed $700 jaguar in box just drooling when I ? post next just to strike and not comment on any of the main things we are discussing here. There are like 10 to 20 posts just jabbing me but you don't cry about that. How come you don't mention ? that? At least I'm somewhat on topics while defending myself or replying to the mocking of my fpga jag idea others keep bringing back up.

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1 hour ago, rayik said:

Nice. Change the subject again.  From making Jag mini, to Cybermorph developed for Panther, now to whether Panther would have sold well.  Might as well create a new Topic since they are all different from this topic.

You skipped the jag cart vs jag cd vs jag duo comments i had, you know the main point of thread I discussed. How much of that happen with others ? past 2 pages? Not going talk about that? Almost every thread on this forum has side subjects or goes off topic a bit or off the wall in them. Ssshhh don't talk about that. Only me ;)

Edited by ataritiger
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34 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I doubt Chilly Willy has any clue about what you are doing here.

 

We talked in PMs. He sent me alot of source codes for jag and homebrew ideas. But your missing another person i listed. Your comment thread related? I have no problem with an admin or moderator taking all our off topic posts and putting in Atari Mini thread I made.

Edited by ataritiger
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