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Leeroy ST

Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

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8 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Yes the multiple one post that most of the responses came from. 

 

Decipher or not I have said what I said. You can conclude how you want, there's nothing more for me to say after this. Other than I believe it will become clearer some of the skeptics will be wrong down the line.

 

 

Yup, you are right, everyone else is wrong, and apparently the god of video games is going to magically come down from the sky and proclaim you the God Emperor of the Jaguar. Got it.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yup, you are right, everyone else is wrong, and apparently the god of video games is going to magically come down from the sky and proclaim you the God Emperor of the Jaguar. 

Real quick, this user pulled this to get my attention, but so just want to point out this never happened and the whole post is dishonest, and those dming me msgs should take note to ignore these bad faith actors who likely dont respect themselves, trying (and failing) to twist the topic and put words in my mouth.

 

Just to clarify you shouldn't pay these no mind. Just look at the post, when you correct someone and they can't handle it they default to smears, nothing new just dont pay attention. That's all.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

trying (and failing) to twist the topic and put words in my mouth.

(...)

when you correct someone and they can't handle it they default to smears

That reminds me of a guy. He posted something incorrect on the first page of this topic, and several people pointed out the mistakes in his argument.

 

He started twisting the topic again and again to avoid admitting he was wrong. Then he eventually resorted to calling people "armchair developers", "bad faith actors" and so on.

 

What was his name, again? 🤔

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Arguing with well know programmers that help others join the community is counter productive..it's borderline insane.You want other programmers to join and create for gamers.....this is the opposite of that.

Edited by JumbleJag
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47 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Just to clarify you shouldn't pay these no mind.

Good, so you agree with us :D

 

Just to clarify....

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5 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Ok can you just tell us what tools you used like someone else asked. 

This thread contains a whole hardware store full of tools.

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8 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

it's clear you jumped in without reading and didn't follow the conversation

When you're the only one actually following the conversation, I'm afraid it's called a monologue.

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Oh man..... 🤣

It's like the second coming of the Liard, appearently.

 

 

Edited by agradeneu
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9 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

 

Are you really going to argue there wasn't anything to improve in regards to Bubsy Fractured? Or are you going to prove you couldn't follow the conversation and decided to make an irrelevant attack without reading?

 

Seems like the later.

 

But I'll save you the trouble, it's clear you jumped in without reading and didn't follow the conversation, it's clear you thought, because you didn't use your head, I was talking about hardware and not the game itself. But this is what happens with inflated egos, you dont think ahead. You probably will skim past this part of the post and prove my point to.

 

 

Makes perfect sense if you actually paid attention. It's not easy to get what you want out the Jag (duh) and the whole goal was to increase the quality of the sprites of THE GAME (duh) with what was available. Clearly this was possible given other games on the same console and elsewhere. So clearly it could be improved upon.

 

Nowhere was the Jaguar hardware itself mentioned in regards to sprites. But those on the wrong side of the argument constantly make mistakes like that.

 

So it's clear you are a bad faith actor. I'm not playing your game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can increase sprite quality by improving artwork, adding or refining animation frames or by improving color space. So, if Bubsy was lacking in that regard, you would hire an artist.

 

Look, if you knew what you are talking about, you could give straight tangible answer everybody understands, without drama and diversion tactics.

However your overblown incomprehensable paragraphs always show the same pattern of deflection and projection and crying like you were the victim.

 

Nothing you write about game development makes any sense from a practical POV.  

Sprite quality was not easy to get out of the Jag? What bullshit is that? I am a game artist and I fully understand that sprite quality is a matter of quality artwork!

 

Like Zerosquare already pointed out, the Jaguar is very good with sprites, with much more options than contemporary systems.

 

 

It makes absolutely no sense Atari would hire a "team" to get more out of sprites like you claim here.

 

The Jaguar is a very good sprite machine, you need some good artists to make it shine!

 

 

Now some words to Rayman: In attempt to make your story more plausible, you suggested that Rayman was suffering from the same limitations of the hardware like Bubsy. 

But as LostDragon already pointed out, the concept of a limbless hero was worked out on Atari ST and later the SNES. 

It later became a stylistic choice for the Jaguar, Playstation and for all Rayman games on modern systems,  as you could produce more convincing, unique and fluid animations for a cartoon character. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by agradeneu
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To add on what @agradeneu wrote on Rayman, having no limb is a neat trick to avoid storing dozens of sprites in memory to achieve super smooth animation. Instead you just need to store a single copy of body, head, hands and feets in memory and you simply move them along predefined paths to give the illusion of movement. (note that they still stored more than one version for each part of the body to create other sort of animation, like the rotating punch, etc.).

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5 minutes ago, LordKraken said:

To add on what @agradeneu wrote on Rayman, having no limb is a neat trick to avoid storing dozens of sprites in memory to achieve super smooth animation. Instead you just need to store a single copy of body, head, hands and feets in memory and you simply move them along predefined paths to give the illusion of movement. (note that they still stored more than one version for each part of the body to create other sort of animation, like the rotating punch, etc.).

I agree. Raymans huge characters consist of smaller sprites that are animated by a software. They could create extremely fluid and varied animations, while very efficiently using RAM.

Otherwise an artist had to draw every frame that also needs to be stored in RAM. This is why most animations in traditional sprite games mostly consisted of 2-8 frames.

Raymans style is so brilliant that it is still prominent in the modern sequels of Rayman Origins and Legends.

I think Sega tried something similar with Vectorman, but those games are a bit forgotten.

 

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If people can't argue their points without slinging insults, the offending posts will be deleted.  If this continues, the thread will be locked.

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6 hours ago, agradeneu said:

 

 

Sprite quality was not easy to get out of the Jag? What bullshit is that? I am a game artist and I fully understand that sprite quality is a matter of quality artwork!

 

Like Zerosquare already pointed out, the Jaguar is very good with sprites, with much more options than contemporary systems.

And as I said previously, this is deceptive and was never part of the discussion. It was about Bubsy specifically and the well known (many) dev supported and frequently cited issue of having problems getting what they want out of the Jaguar, which strangely only now has suddenly not become obvious, despite many studios echoing it for years, and individuals.

 

It's a poor attempt at being dishonest and changing the argument no matter how you spin it. Zero dodged and buried it after doing the same thing for a reason.

 

Anyway now that's cleared up, I'll take the advice from messages and not bother engaging with those who dont want to engage in good faith discussion. Less worry about insulting users. (Granted pointing out your multiple attempts at fibbing about what I said and intentionally putting quotes out of context isn't really insulting, but I already pointed that out so no need to go in circles further)

 

(Btw I never talked about Rayman having issues similar to Bubsy anywhere either, how odd. The pattern continues.)

(And of course you dodge right below after being caught, nothing new. No need to address, everything is clarified here.)

Edited by Leeroy ST

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7 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

And as I said previously, this is deceptive and was never part of the discussion. It was about Bubsy specifically and the well known (many) dev supported and frequently cited issue of having problems getting what they want out of the Jaguar, which strangely only now has suddenly not become obvious, despite many studios echoing it for years, and individuals.

 

It's a poor attempt at being dishonest and changing the argument no matter how you spin it. Zero dodged and buried it after doing the same thing for a reason.

 

Anyway now that's cleared up, I'll take the advice from messages and not bother engaging with those who dont want to engage in good faith discussion. Less worry about insulting users.

 

 

 

Well, your post was just deleted because you can't argue without insulting. You can only blame yourself.

 

Edited by agradeneu
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6 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

(Btw I never talked about Rayman having issues similar to Bubsy anywhere either, how odd. The pattern continues.)

On 8/13/2021 at 7:53 PM, Leeroy ST said:

I never said anything about Atari thinking the platform couldn't handle a side scroller, in fact on both ends I brought up the exact opposite, they wanted something smooth, well animated and Disney comparable but it was tough with what everyone had to pull that off.

 

The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted (with poor guidance) was Rayman, and that used tricks with the detached limbs.

(accusations about the quote being out-of-context and personal attacks coming in 3... 2... 1...)

Edited by Zerosquare
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39 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

(Inserted quotes.)

Ahh, thank you for clarifying his mistake for me.

 

You helped make clear that the bottom quote shows me saying "The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted", which is in the clear context of Rayman being closest to what they wanted to achieve with Bubsy in smoothness and animation, which is also in the same quote you posted!

 

You have helped save me time by proving agradeneu didn't know what he was talking about, and showing absolutely nowhere did I mention Rayman having similar "issues" or "limitations" like Bubsy. Anywhere.

 

Even though technically, one could argue you put your foot in your mouth and this was by incident, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and compliment you anyway, and assume you did a 180 by helping show his claim never happened! While keeping the quote in context!

 

Thanks buddy!

 

 

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I have sneaking suspicions that a smattering of posters on various forums across the vastitude of teh Interwebs are bot-generated. 

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So, according to you:

1) The animation in Bubsy didn't meet Atari's expectations.

2) Even the much better animation in Rayman didn't fully meet Atari's expectations.

3) But 1) and 2) are completely separate issues, and you never claimed otherwise.

 

Yeah, it totally makes sense. Ever thought about a career in politics?

Edited by Zerosquare

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57 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

3) But 1) and 2) are completely separate issues, and you never claimed otherwise.

Hmm, strange you somehow came to this conclusion despite the bottom quote you posted directly not separating these two issues, and were in fact in the same quote, with the clear context showing the relationship. Here is as you quoted it:

 

Quote

I never said anything about Atari thinking the platform couldn't handle a side scroller, in fact on both ends I brought up the exact opposite, they wanted something smooth, well animated and Disney comparable but it was tough with what everyone had to pull that off.

 

The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted (with poor guidance) was Rayman, and that used tricks with the detached limbs.

 

Dont see any separation here, you even mostly bolded the relationship between the two points made.

 

The only reason it doesn't make sense to you is because you ignored the very segment of the post you quoted and decided to make up your own take. You also did this with your last post when you incidentally proved other guy had made up what I said without realizing it. So you did it twice in a row. 

 

Strange how you skipped over that mistake and posted a response without tagging or quoting me. I wonder why you did that. How curious, hmmmmm yes hmmmm.

 

That's two times you messed up the same way and all just with your own quote. Maybe you'll think you "got me" with ANOTHER post supporting what I said without realizing it! Oh no! 

 

I mean If you want to keep arguing by sabotaging your position and supporting mine I won't stop you.

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST

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So, according to you, Bubsy and Rayman definitely did have an issue in common:

15 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Hmm, strange you somehow came to this conclusion despite the bottom quote you posted directly not separating these two issues, and were in fact in the same quote, with the clear context showing the relationship.

Also, according to you, Bubsy and Rayman definitely did not have any issue in common:

10 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Btw I never talked about Rayman having issues similar to Bubsy anywhere either, how odd

 

So, are you and your evil twin brother sharing the same AtariAge account?

Edited by Zerosquare

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30 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

So, according to you, Bubsy and Rayman definitely did have an issue in common:

Also, according to you, Bubsy and Rayman definitely did not have any issue in common:

 

So, are you and your evil twin brother sharing the same AtariAge account?

The "issues" were your points A) and B) referring to your post. Your deceptive attempt at a strawman doesn't work here.

 

You can dodge all you want instead of addressing your two mistakes in a row because you didn't read the post you quoted that you attempted to "get me" with, and failed.

 

There's no post anywhere in this forum where I said this:

 

17 hours ago, agradeneu said:

you suggested that Rayman was suffering from the same limitations of the hardware like Bubsy. 

 

It doesn't exist, this isn't a winnable argument for you, you lost. You already proved it was fake with this quote YOU MADE:

 

Quote

I never said anything about Atari thinking the platform couldn't handle a side scroller, in fact on both ends I brought up the exact opposite, they wanted something smooth, well animated and Disney comparable but it was tough with what everyone had to pull that off.

 

The only 2D game on the Jag that came close to but still not what they wanted (with poor guidance) was Rayman, and that used tricks with the detached limbs.

 

Next time you should actually read the quotes you try to "get" people with. Maybe also acknowledge such mistakes so maybe you stop making them.

 

Or not since it just ends up incidentally supporting me anyway like in post #718, when you showed agrad 100% pulled the statement out of thin air.

 

Whats funny about his quote, is he based it off yours when you suggested I said Atari Jaguar didn't have good sprite capabilities (also doesn't exist) when I was talking about Bubsy sprites specifically. Even better, you just proved how bad your take was with you saying Rayman was much better animated in your point "B)" quoted here:

 

Quote

2) Even the much better animation in Rayman didn't fully meet Atari's expectations.

Which not only incidentally supports what I ACTUALLY said (again for the third time) recently and earlier, but throws several of your earlier posts out the window.

 

You're literally falling to pieces in real-time.

 

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST

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Okay, let's try something else.

 

Since you claim I am incapable of understanding your posts, let's ask someone else in this topic to sum up your arguments and the verifiable facts you contributed. In a single post, using clear and precise words, please. Who knows, maybe I'll be finally enlightened.

 

...anybody?

Edited by Zerosquare
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