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Leeroy ST

Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

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26 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

bad faith actor like Agrad, Zero, Sauron

Bad faith actors... whoohoo we're in the same club as Tom Cruise!

 

Gonna go back to developing a game for the Jaguar now.  Can't spend all my time here in this thread advancing the knowledge, depth and extent of the Jaguar scene like Leeroy here.

All I have to say is thank god he helped do something in Bubsy, it would have turned out a stinking pile of shit without the type of quality of input he's shown here......

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My god you're good. This is a Master Class in misdirection. You rely on winning debates not by force of discussion but by trying to get the reader/listener lost in an avalanche of words. 

 

Any cost and complexity added to a console produced by a company who couldn't produce the simplest version of the hardware to fill it's pre-orders is foolhardy. So that's answers your demanding of CD price sighting and diatribe of misdirection.

 

And I see Arcadia has posted before I could hit reply so imagine my reply right before his.

Edited by JagChris
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Just now, JagChris said:

My god you're good. This is a Master Class in misdirection. You rely on winning debates not by force of discussion but by trying to get the reader/listener lost in an avalanche of words. 

 

Any cost and complexity added to a console produced by a company who couldn't produce the simplest version of the hardware to fill it's pre-orders is foolhardy. So that's answers your demanding of CD price sighting and diatribe of misdirection.

And I see Arcadia has posted before I could hit reply so imagine my reply right before his.

He is not good. The thing is, you can't win a discussion against him as rules of reason and logic don't apply to him.

Just leave him alone and ignore.

 

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And there goes that cost and "complexity" statement with no elaboration again. Along with skipping the test market again not realizing it's connected to the "pre orders". But I dont expect this group to elaborate (ironic)....

(And no, "complexity" was never elaborated in this entire thread outside using the word "complexity" over and over)

 

Now moving to someone else.

50 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

The problem is, is that you don't start ordering parts for your project months before it hits shelves at stores, but rather years before. It's probably more accurate to factor in prices of CD drives back in 1990 when planning started for the Jag. 

Interesting point.

 

But from what Lost dragon says iirc, the original plan was to release the panther (92?) and then release the Jaguar 18 months later.

 

Now of course the panther was scrapped, but that makes 1990 seem a bit early. Especially since Atari also announced the add on at the same time as the announcement. And didn't release the add on itself until much later.

 

I have considered starting with 92 CD prices, that's why due to the test run (93) and the real launch being 94 I figured there was quite a gap, and prices were falling in that time frame.

 

I know that still leads to the possibility of the Jag having a minor price bump if the drive was built in, but $400-500??? That's what was brought up before and that doesn't make much sense imo.

Edited by Leeroy ST

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1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

Why dont you explain...

Why should we? When we did, you didn't want to listen.

 

Plus it's your argument. The burden of proof is on you. Especially since unlike those "bad faith actors", you're basically unknown in the Jaguar community, you provide zero factual proof, and you have zero experience in the subject (sorry, "I've done something on Bubsy that's not even in the released game" doesn't count). You're the one who needs to convince others, not the other way around.

 

So, go ahead. Back up your argument. Explain how the hardware works, how much it costs, how developing for CDs differs from developing for cartridges, Atari's financial situation, their relationship with developers, everything. Not with vague claims, but with hard and precise data.

 

And if you can't, stop wasting everybody's time with stupid antics.

Edited by Zerosquare
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Forum needs a shadow ban so people can just talk to themselves and think others can see it :D

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1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

And there goes that cost and "complexity" statement with no elaboration again. Along with skipping the test market again not realizing it's connected to the "pre orders". But I dont expect this group to elaborate (ironic)....

(And no, "complexity" was never elaborated in this entire thread outside using the word "complexity" over and over)

Who needs to elaborate on the cost and complexity of adding a CD system on top of a cartridge based system? Really self explanatory.

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

The problem is, is that you don't start ordering parts for your project months before it hits shelves at stores, but rather years before. It's probably more accurate to factor in prices of CD drives back in 1990 when planning started for the Jag. 

Interesting point. (RR)

 

But from what Lost dragon says iirc, the original plan was to release the panther (92?) and then release the Jaguar 18 months later.

 

Now of course the panther was scrapped, but that makes 1990 seem a bit early. Especially since Atari also announced the add on at the same time as the announcement. And didn't release the add on itself until much later.

 

I have considered starting with 92 CD prices, that's why due to the test run (93) and the real launch being 94 I figured there was quite a gap, and prices were falling in that time frame.

 

I know that still leads to the possibility of the Jag having a minor price bump if the drive was built in, but $400-500??? That's what was brought up before and that doesn't make much sense imo.

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Leroy ST just wants to argue.  I bet this thread will go on and on even if everyone else stopped posting.  What a waste of time.

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Ahh the possibility of hindsight. It's a great thing. It's easy to say now how prices changed over a few years. Perhaps at the time when planning in advance what your last shot might be at releasing a console, you wouldn't want to take too many gambles.

 

This whole topic is hyperthetical, it should be easy to suggest opinion on what Atari could have done at the time without talking down to each other. Aside from any obvious wacky suggestions, there is no right answer.

 

My opinion? It's fun to think "what if" but at the end of the day I don't really give a f***. We probably would have just received countless FMV shovelware titles with no actual gameplay. I enjoyed what we were given at the time and I'm still enjoying it to this day. I certainly never thought I'd be creating content for it.

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4 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

Gonna go back to developing a game for the Jaguar now. 

Send me the sprites. I’ll increase the quality for you. 

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I’ve been curious who will appear with background info on Mr. Lee Roy’s work, when that will occur, and how sorry we’ll all be. 

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As usual, same ironic group just having no clue about industry prices.

 

"If adding the CD part was so cheap and trivial in 1993, how do you explain that the JagCD (released two years later) was still both expensive and obviously rushed?"

 

lol, well bad Philips drive aside, it's called incompetence, also seen in this quote. Something Atari is notorious for. Your $149 JagCD was not indication of prices in 1995 or any other time before.

 

Quote
Quote

and CD-ROM equipment, for years long on promise but too long as well on price, has finally joined the downward spiral.

Oh? Downward spiral you say?

 

Quote

Originally, computer CD-ROM players, which are about the same size as a 5 1/4-inch hard disk drive, sold for $1,000 and up.

This was true, article is right.

 

Quote

Now a CD-ROM player can be had for as little as $200.

Oh my gosh! Impossible! Only $50 or so more than 1995 JagCD. I wonder how long before the Jag CD this low price was, as I'm am told by people quite sure of themselves JagCD "had" to be that price because "CDs in general" were still expensive, including Jag CDs poor Philips 2x drive, and apparently JagCDs price is an indicator of the market.

 

Surely it could only be a few months earlier, these people are clearly very knowl-

 

Quote

November 15th, 1992

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

 

So CD prices were quickly declining and could be gotten as low as $200 nearly 3 years earlier. Guess those people didn't do their research after all about the disc prices, unless they think the ongoing price drops stopped in 92 (with 93 articles praising bigger CD adoption that year not a likely excuse.) So JagCD price was an indicator of nothing.

 

What a surprise!

 

 

 

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I'll just say this and then ignore the topic.

 

Leeroy, I dunno if this is an ESL thing on your part, and if so I apologize, but your writing is extremely difficult to parse.  When it seems like every single person has trouble understanding what you are saying, you should step back and rethink how you are communicating.

 

You posted a good argument in your opening post, but then have derailed your own topic by totally flipping out as people with experience (in either the hardware itself or in researching Atari history) have come to disagree with you.  What are you trying to accomplish?  I suppose one way to win this argument is to just get really aggressive and insulting until everyone else gives up and ignores the topic or you.

 

I understand it can be frustrating getting dogpiled, and that can be an issue with the Jag forum here as there are definitely cliques, but in this case you have people who otherwise cannot agree on a single thing telling you that you are out of control.  Why are you getting so weirdly aggressive about this?

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1 hour ago, newtmonkey said:

I'll just say this and then ignore the topic.

 

Leeroy, I dunno if this is an ESL thing on your part, and if so I apologize, but your writing is extremely difficult to parse.  When it seems like every single person has trouble understanding what you are saying, you should step back and rethink how you are communicating.

 

You posted a good argument in your opening post, but then have derailed your own topic by totally flipping out as people with experience (in either the hardware itself or in researching Atari history) have come to disagree with you.  What are you trying to accomplish?  I suppose one way to win this argument is to just get really aggressive and insulting until everyone else gives up and ignores the topic or you.

 

I understand it can be frustrating getting dogpiled, and that can be an issue with the Jag forum here as there are definitely cliques, but in this case you have people who otherwise cannot agree on a single thing telling you that you are out of control.  Why are you getting so weirdly aggressive about this?

So no actual response the the historical news article above, gotcha. (Or some users making up quotes that didn't exist earlier in the thread neither require "parsing")

 

But thank you for your otherwise mostly reasonable post.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST

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Quote

 

As usual, same ironic group just having no clue about industry prices.

 

"If adding the CD part was so cheap and trivial in 1993, how do you explain that the JagCD (released two years later) was still both expensive and obviously rushed?"

 

lol, well bad Philips drive aside, it's called incompetence, also seen in this quote. Something Atari is notorious for. Your $149 JagCD was not indication of prices in 1995 or any other time before.

 

  Quote
  Quote

and CD-ROM equipment, for years long on promise but too long as well on price, has finally joined the downward spiral.

Oh? Downward spiral you say?

 

  Quote

Originally, computer CD-ROM players, which are about the same size as a 5 1/4-inch hard disk drive, sold for $1,000 and up.

This was true, article is right.

 

  Quote

Now a CD-ROM player can be had for as little as $200.

Oh my gosh! Impossible! Only $50 or so more than 1995 JagCD. I wonder how long before the Jag CD this low price was, as I'm am told by people quite sure of themselves JagCD "had" to be that price because "CDs in general" were still expensive, including Jag CDs poor Philips 2x drive, and apparently JagCDs price is an indicator of the market.

 

Surely it could only be a few months earlier, these people are clearly very knowl-

 

  Quote

November 15th, 1992

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

 

So CD prices were quickly declining and could be gotten as low as $200 nearly 3 years earlier. Guess those people didn't do their research after all about the disc prices, unless they think the ongoing price drops stopped in 92 (with 93 articles praising bigger CD adoption that year not a likely excuse.) So JagCD price was an indicator of nothing.

 

What a surprise!

 

 

So here is the post again, where are the "extremely knowledgeable people" that didn't get the CD prices right and didn't know CONSUMERS could get them as low as $200 In 92??

 

Hmmm

Edited by Leeroy ST

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11 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

So no actual response the the historical news article above, gotcha.

Your historical news proves nothing of what you've been saying, and in fact seems to be far more in agreement with what everyone else has told you. So, once and for all, let's put this entire argument to rest for you:

 

Adding a CD drive into the Jaguar at launch would've raised the Jaguar well above the price target that Atari had set for the system. End of story. If you think that adding a CD drive would've resulted in no more than a "small bump" in price, then you're really off your rocker. 

 

 

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Hmmm.

 

Consumer models, $200 in 92. Not a professional company with connections buying in bulk.

 

Prices rapid decline does not stop in 92 continues in 93, Jaguar still not launched yet. Declines even further in 94 before and at the Jaguars launch.

 

The part that makes no sense is thinking a built-in CD Jaguar would have a bump making it $400-500 at launch. No matter how you want to spin it.

 

Sure Its likely some from a small group will definitely try to justify this with no actual counter to the cited article but the fact is you could get drives, as a CONSUMER, IN 1992 for $200, and prices continued to fall on both the consumer and professional end year to year 

 

The historical and objective price decreases dont stop after 92 because some people want them to. They happened. 

 

A $149 Jaguar CD addon in 1995 was nothing more than Ataris incompetence, at a time of $150-$250 better built and faster 4-6x drives that same year, and many 2x drives being bargain buys in a deal bucket at the front of the store. Other than some select premium (over)priced brands and other small exceptions 

 

It's not an indicator of anything. Atari in 1993 would be able to have a reasonable deal for drives, more than a consumer buying an individual unit, which was already cheap on that end.

Edited by Leeroy ST

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14 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Hmmm.

 

Consumer models, $200 in 92. Not a professional company with connections buying in bulk.

 

Prices rapid decline does not stop in 92 continues in 93, Jaguar still not launched yet. Declines even further in 94 before and at the Jaguars launch.

 

The part that makes no sense is thinking a built-in CD Jaguar would have a bump making it $400-500 at launch. No matter how you want to spin it.

 

Sure Its likely some from a small group will definitely try to justify this with no actual counter to the cited article but the fact is you could get drives, as a CONSUMER, IN 1992 for $200, and prices continued to fall on both the consumer and professional end year to year 

 

The historical and objective price decreases dont stop after 92 because some people want them to. They happened. 

 

A $149 Jaguar CD in 1995 was nothing more than Ataris incompetence, at a time of $150-$250 better built and faster 4-6x drives that same year and 2X being bargain deals in a deal bucket at the front of the store.

 

It's not an indicator of anything.

Fine, you can disbelieve me all you want, but let's see what Sam Tramiel had to say about it back in his interview with Next Generation magazine in 1995:

 

1694062553_ScreenShot2021-08-15at9_23_09AM.png.acfbae715353a91c798acf8814c37b06.png

 

Keep in mind that this interview was well more than a year after the Jag's initial launch. He himself is saying that a Jag with a CD drive would be $300 - $400 in comparison with its then price of $159. As we know, the Jag CD that launched in September of 1995 cost $149, although it did come with a separate power supply plus some pack-in software. So, let's be generous here in regards to price, and assume that integrating the CD drive into the system would cost Atari no more than $100 more than a year before this interview. That would give the Jaguar a base price of $350, which at the time would've made it significantly more expensive than most other previous console launch prices, with the few exceptions being systems that didn't exactly set the world on fire. Atari had been clear from the outset that they had a price target for $200 to $250 for the Jag's launch price. 

 

I think it's safe to say that the Jag with an integrated CD-ROM drive AT THE BARE MINIMUM would have cost $350, or more likely $400 at launch. Again, a far cry from the "minor bump" in price that you seem to be clinging to.

 

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Ataris incompetence doesn't overwrite the facts. As cited, Consumers could get drives objectively in 92 at $200, consumers not even companies, consumers! 

 

Atari announced the JagCD at the same time as Jag, but released it two years later, for a console that almost everyone universally agrees on being mismanaged, impacted by bad decisions, corporate rushing, and poor judgement.

 

But I guess we're going to suddenly pretend that isn't the case to try and poorly defend Ataris 1995 Jagcd pricing?

 

Funny how other consoles didn't have this problem, or if released a decent time earlier had a massive difference in price by 1995.

 

Not just gaming, but other CD devices from drives to players. Only Atari seemed to have this problem with their add on. How curious.

 

$149 Jag CD addon when you can get a quality built fast 4X drive at the same price, possibly less on sale. 2X drives in many cases in cheap buckets in stores. 

 

Sorry but it would have been a marginal bump at best. Drives nearly met the Jag CD addon price nearly 3 years earlier as shown:

 

Quote

Now a CD-ROM player can be had for as little as $200.

 

Then there is this:

 

https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/old-ads-best-buy-july-1994-2-5a210559664ac__880.jpg

 

Even CD players, in (July!) 1994, around a year BEFORE JagCD, $89 WITH extras. 

 

Unless you have some example showing how only Atari would have this bump and could "possibly" meet $500 early 3DO pricing it doesn't add up. Drives were not that costly.

 

$400 is pushing too for the same reason, the 3DO got to that price in 94, a console who's price had little to do with the CD drive (relatively). $350 is barely much of a difference from that.

 

We have too much information on CD drive and electronic pricing for that to hold any water. Atari would be able to have a better deal in 1993 or 1994 for cd drives during the price drops, than a consumer from 1992 buying an individual unit, and even that was $200 at that time! So even in 92 Atari would have had a better deal being corporate.

 

The high premium some want to believe just doesn't match historical prices.

 

Edited by Leeroy ST

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^Actually 1 year after (in us) but had nothing to do with the CD drive. It was due to expensive internals and Sony being rich took that hit to enter the market. Sega which initially was announced $100 more, was not able to take such a hit. Their console also had expensive internals and last second adjustments. 

 

In addition to the links above for cd drive prices in my previous post:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w18931/w18931.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiuoPKT1bPyAhVmKVkFHb6wCd04ChAWegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0IS2-WTtEiFmzTq7OE8Lef

 

8c6J8ZN.png

 

Quote

Rapidly falling prices clearly explain much of the increase in sales. In 1988, the average sales price for a CD‐ROM was about $500. In 1990, average unit price was about $300, and by 1995, under $100 This amounts to a fall in average unit price of about 20.5% annually. Moreover, this is a lower bound on the rate of quality‐adjusted price decline, because the CD‐ ROM drive sales depicted in the later years in the above figure also capture dramatically higher quality drives than the original CD‐ROM units.

Yes under $100 by 95.

 

And 4X drives were being standardized to consumers by then, 2X drives were even cheaper on the lower end. Bargain buys.

 

As shown here:

https://tidbits.com/1995/07/24/the-quad-speed-quandary/

Quote

If you’ve paid any attention to the CD-ROM market in the last few months, you’ve noticed one thing: quad-speed (4x) CD-ROM drives are all the rage. Third-party, quad-speed drives for the Mac have been available from manufacturers such as NEC and Sony for some time, and Apple will be including quad-speed drives in desktop Macs. Double-speed CD-ROM drives are going the way of the 800K floppy drive, and quad-speed drives look to be the next step up the ladder. To make matters more complicated, there are also triple-speed (3x) and sextuple-speed (6x) CD-ROM mechanisms on the market.

And these are for consumers, not cheaper corporate prices in bulk. Cheap since 92, cheaper in 93, bargains in 94, and for 2x drives, bins in 95.

 

And we are talkng about the very cheap 2x drives in relation to Jag(and the other 3 relevant CD consoles of the era) here, not the still cheap (but not as much) 4x standard by 95.

 

There's no reason to believe there would be a massive jump in price at the Jaguars 1994 launch (If a CD drive was built in) when 2X drives were bargain bin tier for CONSUMERS not long after and even the 4X drives being under $100. 

 

And again, I repeat, these are consumer prices. Not prices for corporations with connections buying in bulk, which would be cheaper per unit. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST

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In Leeroy's ST world:

- integrating a CD-ROM into a video games console doesn't take any time or money, you just buy it and plug it in

- as a consequence, strategic decisions are made based on hardware prices at the console's launch, not years in advance

- blowing your target price by $100 or more isn't an issue

- and most importantly: going the CD route would have magically solved Atari management's competence and money problems

 

I guess there's no point in arguing against something that is a fantasy.

 

 

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